Talk:Relativity priority dispute

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WikiProject Physics This article is within the scope of WikiProject Physics, which collaborates on articles related to physics.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the assessment scale. [FAQ]
??? This article has not yet received an importance rating within physics.

Help with this template Please rate this article, and then leave comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify its strengths and weaknesses.
This article is part of the History of Science WikiProject, an attempt to improve and organize the history of science content on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. You can also help with the History of Science Collaboration of the Month.
??? This article has not yet been assigned a rating on the quality scale.
??? This article has not yet been assigned a rating on the importance scale.
Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 13 September 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.
Archive
Archives

Individual archive files:

Please add new comments below at the bottom of the appropriate section. Please sign your comment with ~~~~ and if possible please indent your comment using colons for readability. TIA ---CH 09:56, 28 February 2006 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] Andrew MacFarlane?

I removed the following from the intro:

Consideration may be given Alexander MacFarlane for introducing hyperbolic quaternions in 1891, thus introducing split-complex number arithmetic to physics and anticipating Lorentz transformations and Minkowski space.

The main reason is that I can't figure out any reason for relating this to either the special or general theories of relativity. The Alexander MacFarlane article doesn't mention relativity at all. --Alvestrand 08:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] George Francis FitzGerald

Priority disputes are idiotic but FitzGerald could be mentioned. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.154.188.139 (talk) 14:21, 31 January 2007 (UTC).

He's described in George Francis FitzGerald as a contributor. This is different from a discussion on whether he invented relativity; all the stuff that's currently listed is people where claims have been made that they should have the credit for the relativity theories themselves. --Alvestrand 18:53, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bjerknes

The long Bjerknes section is mostly not about the Relativity dispute but is some kind of "argument from authority". And what has the Wannasee conference got to do with this page? E4mmacro 22:00, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

It's a single-purpose user pushing a particular viewpoint again, I think. This user has also been "sprucing up" the Christopher Jon Bjerknes page, trying to make him look like more of an authority. --Alvestrand 07:45, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
He is now egaged in an undo edit war. The Bjerknes section is now all about Stachel/Bjerknes dispute, which could go on Bjerknes page, but is out of place here. E4mmacro 23:31, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
And why has he have no user page? Could it be some banned user back again? E4mmacro 23:44, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User "Relativity Priority Disputation"

I hope you don't mind if I call you RPD for short. The place to argue that the Stachel/Bjerknes dispute should occupy some much space, is here in the talk section. You keep repeating the long-winded BORING dispute between Stachel and Bjerknes, with a plain bias in favor of Bjerknes.

On another point, even if Einstein was a racist or child murderer of Satanist or WHATEVER, that has no relevance to the question of who originated Relativity. So why keep restoring these allegations? E4mmacro 00:59, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

The statement "Bjerknes is largely responsible for making the 21st century relativity priority dispute a mainstream discussion" looks POV to me. Does it matter anyway, who, of the many crtics mentioned, is largely responsible? I have flagged it as POV for the moment, but it should be deleted. E4mmacro 06:27, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I have no bias. You keep deleting the factual and relevant material I add to present an accurate and balanced NPOV. Where have I deleted what you have written which balances what you call the "dispute between Stachel and Bjerknes"? You evidently hate Bjerknes and view his perspective with disdain, but that does permit you to express your apparent negative bias against Bjerknes in favor of Stachel on this Wikipedia article.
You are the one who introduced what you call irrelevancies into the description of Bjerknes's 2006 e-book. I provided a needed NPOV on your assessment. Note that exceptional, and I would add "unexpected", claims require exceptional proof. It is therefore necessary to present facts which support Bjerknes's unexpected claims so that they are not misunderstood.
It is relevant to this article to point out who it was who brought out all of these issues and who it was who made them a mainstream discussion. Your mischaracterizing this as if POV indicates that you hate Bjerknes and view anything positive said about him, factual or not, as material for the trash heap. This article would not exist if it were not for Bjerknes's books and articles. It is relevant to point that out. Thank you for the discussion! Relativity Priority Disputation 14:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
What's the source that states that Bjerknes' diatribes "brought out all of these issues and made them a mainstream discussion"? The page lists similar diatribes appearing regularly since 1954, many published by mainstream media, something that has so far eluded Bjerknes; making such a claim for Bjerknes requires sources. --Alvestrand 20:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Stachel's review, Log04, Win04, Wue05, Som05, etc. cite Bjerknes 2002 and 2003. Bjerknes is the source of the dispute over the CRS article, which has aroused so much attention in the 21st century. Have you ever read Bjerknes's books? How could you mistake the fact that he has cited more prior work on the subject than anyone before him, or since? Who is it that you propose is largely responsible for introducing the relativity priority dispute in the 21st century and making it a mainstream discussion? The point is that Bjerknes has published comprehensive reviews of the most significant issues and framed the debate on those issues making many novel discoveries, for example his 2003 book and its chapters on Hilbert, Soldner and Gerber represent the foundational work on the issue on the side of those who criticize CRS, and their papers are highly derivative of what appears in this book. He is the source of the 21st century debate, and this page would not exist were it not for him. Relativity Priority Disputation 20:55, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
The published attack on the CRS article was by Winterberg. Again, who claims that Bjerknes has "framed the debate", rather than being a figure on the sidelines, yelling loudly and largely being ignored? That view, too, is consistent with the facts cited so far. --Alvestrand 21:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
The published critique which rebutted CRS article in the Zeitschrift fuer Naturforschung was by Winterberg, and he credits Bjerknes with numerous improvements, and novel arguments. However, it was Bjerknes's 2002 book Albert Einstein - The Incorrigible Plagiarist, which states that Einstein plagiarized Hilbert, and which inspired Winterberg to investigate CRS's claims and discover the mutilation and formulate an argument as to what the missing section contained. Winterberg's arguments were first published in Bjerknes's book Anticipations of Einstein in the Genereal Theory of Relativity of 2003, which is far more detailed than Winterberg's article, and which raises many points made by Bjerknes independent of Winterberg, and which presents the full argument against CRS repeated with only a few embellishments in the later papers. Logunov provides important insights into Hilbert's work, but on the CRS issue of the mutilation, there is little new. The same is true of Wuensch and Sommer, though the revelation of the Max Born letter is very important, but was discovered by Sommer and first cited by Corry. If you disagree, kindly provide examples of the insights found in the later works not found in Bjerknes's 2003 book, or are you criticizing something you haven't even read? Relativity Priority Disputation 21:51, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Interesting... the only credit to Bjerknes in Winterberg's article is this: "The author expresses his thanks to C. J. Bjernkes for his critical reading of the manuscript and improving the text in several places". He also mentions that Bjerknes quoted him in Bjerknes' book, and that Bjerknes gave him a copy of Logunov's work. He never quotes Bjerknes. [1].
And since this is all about priority - Winterberg claims that the original version of his paper was sent to Nature on Nov 21, 2002. "Anticipations of Einstein" was published in 2003. So who was the "framer of the debate"? --Alvestrand 22:07, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
You have confirmed what I said, not refuted it, though you have misrepresented the extent of Winterberg's references to Bjerknes, which are as follows:


From pages 718-179:
As C. J. Bjerknes [9] has pointed out to me, the fact that the cut passes through a sentence on page 7 and not on page 8, suggests that it was intended for page 8, giving further support for the hypothesis of a forgery with the purpose to suggest that Hilbert had copied from Einstein.


Acknowledgement
The author expresses his thanks to C. J. Bjerknes for his critical reading of the manuscript and improving the text at several places.
[Winterberg's article was sent to Science, not Nature]
However, I had been given a preprint of my paper to C. J. Bjerknes, a historian of science, who had quoted my findings in his book "Anticipations of Einstein the General Theory of Relativity","[10] His book is quoted in a preprint by Logunov, Mestrishvili, and Petrov [11], coming to the same conclusions. I express my thanks to Mr. Bjerknes, who had provided me with a preprint of their work.
[9] C. J. Bjerknes, Private Communication.
[10] C. J. Bjerknes, Anticipations of Einstein in the General Theory of Relativity, XTX Inc. Downers Grove, Illinois USA, 2003."


I properly characterized this, though you did not. Bjerknes was cited in a preprint of Logunov, and in the published Logunov paper on pages 607 and 612-613, they refer Bjerknes's book Anticipations of Einstein in the General Theory of Relativity as a source for the proofs.
see Ref. [7]
which cites
7. Bjerknes C J Anticipations of Einstein in the General Theory of Relativity (Downers Grove, Ill.:XTX Inc., 2003)
On page 621, it states
We also thank C J Bjerknes for helpful remarks.


Winterberg has said that Logunov 2004 came to the same conclusions in a paper which cited Bjerknes from 2003. Now, have you, or have you not, read Bjerknes's book Anticipations of Einstein in the General Theory of Relativity? What is new in Logunov's paper in reference to the CRS issue, which was not first stated in Bjerknes 2003? What was new in Winterberg 2004, which was not first quoted in Bjerknes 2003? The collaboration of Winterberg began before the submission of Winterberg's paper. Bjerknes properly credits Winterberg, and Winterberg raises no objections to Bjerknes's references to Winterberg's work, nor does he raise any objection that Bjerknes has failed to properly cite Winterberg's contributions. Now if you have read Bjerknes's book, as an ethical critic must have, you know that Bjerknes's book goes far beyond Winterberg's paper and frames the full debate. Bjerknes is responsible for the first publication of Winterberg's arguments, not Science, not Zeitschrift fuer Naturforschung. Bjerknes recognized their importance, stuck out his neck and published them, and Bjerknes presented his own novel arguments and research thereby framing the debate as we know it today. Relativity Priority Disputation 22:53, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi RPD, glad to see you are contributing to the talk page at last. I wonder if you realise that the page is about who originated the theory of relativity, not about the Bjerknes/Stachel spate. It is also not about Einstein's views on Zionism and Judaism. E4mmacro 19:40, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Hello E4mmacro!
You make an artificial distinction between the relativity priority dispute, and Stachel's claims that Bjerknes's claims that Einstein was a plagiarist are false. Stachel's claims and Bjerknes's response are a part of the dispute and the POV pushing you are doing to eliminate Bjerknes's response defeat the NPOV requirement that Bjerknes's response be represented. Einstein's views on Zionism and Judaism are relevant for many reasons. They demonstrate, as Bjerknes states, that Einstein was man of very low character who was capable of plagiarism. They also indicate that Einstein may have been motivated by his Jewish and Zionist racism against Gentiles to steal credit for their work and to refuse to "praise the Goy", especially the work of his first wife, as Bjerknes has argued: http://jewishracism.blogspot.com/2006/12/racist-jewish-attitude-towards-those.html Do you think I should introduce this into the article? Relativity Priority Disputation 20:06, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
So far, no part of the page, apart from the newly added material in the Bjerknes section, deals with issues of character of the participants. Rather, they deal with the statements published in reliable sources about what can be shown to have happened, and what cannot be shown to have happened. In this context, I don't believe statements that ONLY are relevant to theories about Einstein's possible motivations for what he is accused of having done are relevant. --Alvestrand 20:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
There is a difference between possible motivations and general character. Einstein's general character is certainly an issue since he stands accused of plagiarism, as Bjerknes has pointed out. In addition, the general image of Einstein is false and biases the public against Einstein's critics. It is necessary and helpful to portray an accuracte image of Einstein's dark side. Relativity Priority Disputation 20:59, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
General character should be discussed on Albert Einstein, if at all. Earlier debates have shown no consensus to change the description there - rather the opposite. --Alvestrand 21:33, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I disagree. The facts are so at odds with the false popular image of Einstein, preserved by biased censors like those found here, that it is much to be desired to expose them. They are highly relevant to this article, in that, as I have already explained, they evince that, contrary to the popular image, Einstein was a man of very low character and was capable of plagiarism. I have a source for this, and you do not have the right to exclude this relevant material. Relativity Priority Disputation 21:57, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
You should check WP:V - "verifiability, not truth". That you're unable to get your opinions on Einstein's character entered on the Albert Einstein page gives you no right to add the same opinion to another page. WP:NPOV is also interesting reading. --Alvestrand 05:42, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
It isn't helpful for you to misrepresent what I have clearly stated. I am not discussing the Albert Einstein page. I am discussing the popular image of Einstein versus the reality of Einstein and I am stating the fact that Einstein's character is a relevant issue in the Relativity Priority Dispute and is an issue raised by a source which provides verifiability. You are not asking me to add other views, nor are you attempting to add other views yourself, but you are instead demanding that I not raise this relevant issue, which has already been raised by literature cited in this article. You do not have the right to make such a demand. You are violating the very rules to which you point me. Relativity Priority Disputation 13:26, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
You are *claiming* that Einstein's character is relevant to this page (while you are not even trying to get your claims about it onto Einstein's page). I am *claiming* the opposite. I believe that the consensus opinion on Wikipedia supports my viewpoint. --Alvestrand 13:34, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Again, you are misrepresenting what I said. Einstein's character, and the character of Hilbert and Poincare, are raised as an issue in the Relativity Priority Dispute by Bjerknes and by many other verifiable sources. That is a fact and it is a NPOV to include that issue which is discussed in verifiable sources. If you have a source that says Einstein's character is not an issue, then you can add a mention of it on the section I am considering adding on the character of Hilbert, Poincare and Einstein. That is how NPOV works, not by deleting relevant issues raised by the sources cited in this article. Simply put, it is not *my* claim that character is a part of this dispute, but rather it is a fact proven by my citations to Bjerknes, and I intend to add others. The fact that a given issue is not currently a part of this article does not mean that it is not a part of the Relativity Priority Dispute, otherwise this article would never have grown and Wikipedia would not exist as it does. I will add Pais and others, and attempt to provide a fair survey of what has been said. You are of course free to add what you think appropriate, subject to the normal procedures of Wikipedia. But you are not free to prevent the entry of this issue, which is a recorded and verifiable part of the dispute. Relativity Priority Disputation 13:49, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Archiving old stuff

Since it appears that we're entering another cycle of activity here, I've taken the liberty of archiving everything older than 9 months. --Alvestrand 20:40, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What is ad hominen?

Ad hominen may be the wrong characterisation, but the facts are that Bjerknes in his books, and RPD here, are using Einstein's "dark side" as a means of proving that Einstein did not originate the theory of Relativity. It doesn't matter how dark Einstein's dark side is, that has nothing to do with who originated the theory of relativity. As Alvestran says, the place for views on Einstein's chatacter is the Einstein page. If RPD wants to prove Bjerknes right in his dispute with Stachel, he is free to start a page on that topic e.g. "Bjerknes dispute with Stachel". And is also free to start a page "Who first thought of accusing Einstein of not inventing Relativity", or better still "The history of opposition to the theory of relativity". The last page, would be interesting, and it could differeniate between idelogical attacks, attacks by the Nazi party, and the sincere attempts to come to a better theory, by people such as Ives and Oliver Lodge. Go to it, RPD. E4mmacro 23:01, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the useful suggestions. I have also considered branching this out into other pages. I maintain that if Stachel's review is mentioned at all, then Bjerknes's response must also be represented for a NPOV, because Stachel is stating that Bjerknes is wrong and therefore Einstein did not plagiarize. I also believe that questions of character are relevant to this page, but will ponder the matter further and perhaps constitute a page on Einstein's dark side, as well as a page on the history of the evolution of the priority dispute itself, which could also be a section of this article. Relativity Priority Disputation 23:30, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
There is not much need to mention Stachel's review of Bjerknes book. In fact I thought I had deleted that mention and all the counter-arguments once before, and someone restored it. I would suggest links to new pages, not putting the new material here. E4mmacro 00:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I may have restored it as we crossed paths editing the article, not realizing that you had deleted it. I would not oppose deleting mention of Stachel's review of Bjerknes's book, but if it remains it must be balanced with his response. Relativity Priority Disputation 13:36, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bjerknes/Winterberg collaboartion

What is the point of this statement?

Bjerknes and Winterberg's collaborative efforts in 2002 and 2003 formed the basis for their later criticisms of the Corry, Renn and Stachel's 1997 article in Science.

Who cares if they collaborated? Do they want us to know they have at least one person who agrees with them? Who cares what the basis of the later criticism of Corry, Renn and Stachel was? Did they publish jointly? Does one of them think the other is stealing the "credit"?

And the "proof" that they collaborated is said to be that they cited each other.

It is known from Bjerknes's books and Winterberg's article that the two collaborated, because each cited the other. (?)

Many people cite each other without collaborating. I suggest this be deleted as irrelevant. E4mmacro 04:43, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

The original statement and reference have been changed, which has changed their meaning. The section refers to Bjerknes's contributions. It can be proven that he and Winterberg collaborated and that their collaborative work formed the basis for the work of Logunov, Wuensch, Sommer and others, which was the original meaning of what was said. I would not oppose removing the statement and reference. Relativity Priority Disputation 13:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Too many quotes

This article has too many block quotes. It's supposed to summarize arguments, not quote them verbatim. I could see some potential in putting the quotes in footnotes to establish context though.-Wafulz 19:58, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

There's some method in the madness.... this page has been extremely contentious at times, with people "summarizing" arguments in ways that were very far from agreeable to the other editors; this usually led to the direct quotes being used, and sometimes lengthened to include enough context. It's possible that the time is quiet enough to do some summarizing and attempted cleanup - feel free to try! --Alvestrand 13:54, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bjerknes

After carefully reading the section on Bjerkness, I've removed it. The entire import of the thing seems to be that he's self-published and nobody takes his crackpot ideas seriously. --Tony Sidaway 21:17, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bjerknes references

I've reverted a removal of the Bjerkens sources from the reference list.

My reasoning is that these sources are in fact cited in the text; we can't remove the possibility for people to follow the references links without also removing the arguments they are referenced for. Note that the article uses a Harvard-like reference style, so in order to find the Bjerknes references, one has to search for [Bje in the text and footnotes, not merely look for ref tags. --Alvestrand 12:53, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please help

I've heard Zionists made Einstein so popular ,is that right? please email me at m_saamaan@yahoo.com ,any answer is appreciated.And also was It because of Nazis or ....?--85.185.171.3 (talk) 13:58, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The patent office and einstein

Did Albert Einstein steal special relativity theory from a person who tried to patent it(or copyright it) while he worked at the Swiss patent office? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.69.197.38 (talk) 21:57, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

There are no reliable sources cited for such a claim, so by Wikipedia custom we must regard it as false. --Alvestrand (talk) 19:45, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lorentz ether theory

I moved the priority section from Lorentz ether theory into this article. There seems to be a better place. --D.H (talk) 17:35, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair Use? Lenghty Quotations

Speaking of plagiarism, some of the quotations in this article are so lengthy as to verge on the boundaries of "fair use". Usually a few sentences are okay, but when it gets up to a full page of quoted verbatim text, it begins to raise some concerns. I suspect part of the problem is that some editors are unacquainted with the literature, so other editors use the article itself to provide some reading material, to overcome uninformed objections. I can sympathize with that, but I still think we should make an effort to observe the "fair use" limitations. After all, the authors of those books may still hope to make money from them.Denveron (talk) 04:58, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

The quotations from Hilbert are fair game, since they're older than US copyright law. As for the newer attackers - as I remember it, the lengthy quotes were inserted in reaction to "cherry-picking" by some of the contributors here; I would not be happy to see them much shortened. Especially when discussing a subject that is so very prone to "he said / she said" debates, it's very easy to cross the boundary from reporting on what someone said into doing WP:OR by picking out pieces that fit this page's context rather than representing the original source. (I know - I've done it myself, inadverently!) --Alvestrand (talk) 08:43, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] About text marked with "fact" tags

I see that an anonymous editor has been deleting several paragraphs in the article; the common thread seems to be that they contain {{fact}} tags. I've rolled back 3 out of 4 deletions, because the paragraphs in question were partially referenced, or they were connected to the surrounding text in such a way that the text became difficult to comprehend without them.

I'm all in favour of deleting truly unsourced material, but I think it should be done by cleaning up the text so that what it says can be supported from the sources given, not by simply deleting the whole paragraph if there's a {{fact}} tag in it.

Feel free to discuss... --Alvestrand (talk) 15:30, 29 April 2008 (UTC)