Talk:Relational database

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[edit] Another new archive

I created a new archive, because the page was getting a bit long, and most of it was me just being pedantic. As always, we're looking for ways to improve the article. Be bold. McKay 04:16, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Request

Any chance someone could make this page more readable to the layman? Sections such as 'advantages and disadvantages over other types of database' or 'uses' might help, or just inclusion of this info in the intro. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.210.173.159 (talk • contribs) 14:54, 18 September 2006 (UTC2)

I replied to his talk page that he probably meant RDBMS McKay 23:50, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dump the quibbles

Too great a percentage of the introductory matter is scolding laymen (or marketing droids) for abusing terms like RDBMS and relational database. Okay, we get it: the software is not the database (any more than a word processor is a document). Let's cut to the chase.

I propose adding one sentence, and tucking it away somewhere less prominent, pointing out the distinction between, say MS SQL Server (a database program) and the abstract idea of a database (a collection of related tables). --Uncle Ed 22:06, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Drat, I can't please everyone. Maybe it could be less berating, but the comments I kept getting while writing this article were "well, why would I use one relational database over another" Where such a concept is probably referring to DBMSs. It is very common for people to misuse the term. I belive it is WP's policy to include such misuses (especially very popular ones) in the intro paragraph. Additional discussion on the subject would be most welcome. McKay 03:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Oh, sorry. I get it now. The colloquial usage is to refer to database software as a "relational database". If I can come up with a gentler way to point out the distinction, I'll add it to the article.
Something like,
  • In discussions about software, some people blur the distinction between a relational database and a DBMS. For example, they may refer to Oracle as a "database" when strictly speaking it is software which manages a database.
Okay, McKay? --Uncle Ed 17:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, I want to emphasize that an RDBMS is not a relational database, though some people use it mistakenly, Other than that, I like it, and it is better than what we have in explaining that. McKay 19:01, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] figures?

There might be a case for adding some figures for examples. – Kaihsu 10:18, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] relation

relation —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jitendraapi (talk • contribs) 07:59, 25 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] wording?

I found this page highly redundant. The first few paragraphs say the same phrase "is a database that conforms to the relational model" about three times. I would alter it myself, but I don't have enough knowledge on the topic yet.--Vince | Talk 18:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Constraint not part of database

The constraint bit states: "....constraints are not considered part of the relational database"

Many constraints however are a way of defining the domain of the type. The domains are part of the relational database, even (or: especially) in the strictest sense. Please comment, if OK I'll try a rewording.

Also: the link to Constraint refers to the disambiguation page, if suppose it should direct to "Constraint satisfaction" (in computer science).

Pukkie 07:35, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I made a few minor modifications to the sections on data domain and constraints. I think the wording on the "constraints are not considered part of the relational database" part are confusing. That sentence should be made a little more clear and it should definitely be referenced. Thanks. SqlPac (talk) 05:21, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] It might help...

...To include a summary of terminology. I'm thinking a table summary that compares the official academic RDBMS terminology and the SQL-ized versions. For instance, relation = table/tuple = row/attribute = column. I know it's spelled out in bits and pieces throughout the article, but it might help casual readers to see a quick summary all in one shot. I think it will make the article a bit more accessible. I'll check back later and see if I can add a little something if someone else doesn't take it up. SqlPac (talk) 05:33, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Added a little something, although it can probably be expanded. 69.116.243.84 (talk) 18:44, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Relational Operations Section

Could use a lot more beefing up. We can discuss and give examples of the different operations, including all 8 of Codd's original operators (relational division, etc.) 69.116.243.84 (talk) 05:17, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] XML Databases

I've removed the claim that it "remains to be seen" whether relational databases will survive the threat of XML databases (and reverted a revert of my change). As far as I'm aware, XML databases haven't made significant inroads in the database marketplace. This is in part because the major relational database vendors are including significant XML functionality in their databases, so I suppose one could say that XML databases are making inroads in the sense of being assimilated. But I'd say that we need some pretty good references to support a claim that relational databases are under any significant threat from XML databases. Klausness (talk) 15:31, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

XML Databases are a relatively new technology to the ancient by comparison Relational Databases, it is wrong to say that Relational Databases have outlived and survived XML Databases because of this fact. Businesses have been taking up XML Databases and making use of them because of performance benefits over Relational Databases for when data that is deeply complex by nature or if the data is highly changable or if they are dealing heavily with XML, e.g. Web Services. Saying that this new technology has been beaten by Relational databases because there is still a wide use of Relational Databases is like saying that CORBA has beaten Web Services!. Get over it, and get objective!, 13:42 9 June 2008 (BST) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.153.252.39 (talk) 12:42, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
XML Databases are not that new, and I see no sign that pure XML databases have made significant headway since their introcuction. As I mentioned, XML functionality is being included by relational database vendors, which is why I added a note to that effect, and relational database vendors do appear to be focusing a lot of development effort on adding addtional XML functionality. Also, the wording "Whether they will survive XML databases is another matter" is just not very encyclopedic (and sounds somewhat biased towards XML databases). I've partially reverted to the previous version again, but I've changed the wording a bit. Please do not keep reverting without getting some sort of consensus here on the talk page. Klausness (talk) 15:17, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
XML Databases are new in comparison to the time relational databases have been around just as humans are new in comparison to the time the earth has been around. Yes, relational database vendors are including XML functionality in their products because the world is going in the direction of XML, but the support is quite basic in comparison to native XML databases and one day developers will find it just too cumbersome working with relational databases when a better alternative is available[1]. Relational Databases performance of processing/shredding XML (XML-Enabled) is very poor in comparison to native XML storage[2]. As for XML Databases not making headway commercially, I know that the Inland Revenue and Customs in the UK uses Tamino as its core database and has done so for a few years now, also the giant retailer Comet Electricals which as far as I'm aware has the 5th largest amount of traffic in the UK uses Tamino as its back-end database layer, I also know of a major UK bank which is now using Berkeley DB XML as its major database persistence layer and Symbian use X-Hive for their document and information management. Also the wording "relational database vendors have fought off challenges from XML databases" is biased towards relational databases. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.153.252.37 (talk) 08:30, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Without references, your claims that some people are using XML databases are pretty meaningless (and even with references, showing that some companies use XML databases doesn't show that they're actually gaining significant market share). As for the reference you have inside the ref tag (Native XML versus CLOB and Shredding), if you look at the study that cites, it's a study by IBM that shows how much better DB2's XML support is compared to Oracle's. Hardly something that argues against XML support in relational databases. Also, "have attempted to fight off" is at least as biased as "have fought off". Oh, and the note in your latest edit summary about "reporting me to wikipedia" (whatever that means) is just silly. We're supposed to be trying to reach some sort of consensus here about the article. Failing that, I'm trying to make edits that take the article closer to a NPOV. Klausness (talk) 11:45, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Thinking about it a bit more, this stuff is all really more about relational database management systems than about relational databases, so it probably doesn't belong in the intro at all. I've moved it to a separate section. Klausness (talk) 12:22, 10 June 2008 (UTC)