Talk:Regional power

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Regional power article.
Article policies
Archives: 1
Good article Regional power was a nominee for good article, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Archive
Archives
  1. 20th October 2005 - 8th May 2007

Contents

[edit] Brazil is not an Oil "superpower"

The next source: http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/nov2007/db20071115_045316.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index_businessweek+exclusives

only says is potentially an important player in oil production, with 100,000 barrels at day and potentially at the best 1 million barrels at day. For example, Mexico produces 3.8 million barrels at day. Plus those reserves have not been proved. Saying "it is already" an Oil superpower is original research.

Kardrak 05:29, 7 Jun 2008 (UTC)



[edit] This article should be revised and updated

Hiearchy of power:

GLobal Power: US is the unrivalled global power today. Its hard power is in a dimension of its own, it capacity and momentum to innovate, its pervasive culture good or bad, makes its soft power felt globally. Its economy is the largest in the world, its population growing, its currency the reserve of the world, it is feared and respected throughout the planet.

2. Major-Powers: There are only two. Russia: A rapidly declining one. largest country on earth, Straddles europe, middle-east, central and east-asia. Significant hard-power though rapidly atrophing, declining soft-power, immense resource power, declining population, pervasive corruption, political nihilism and legions of enemies without and traitors within. Largest stockpile of nuclear Weapons. Only country with capacity to annihilate the Global-Power.

China: A rapidly ascending power, phenominal investment in hard-power, rapidly increasing soft-power in central asia, africa and south-east asia. Growing population, rapidly growing economy, rapidly transforming itself into an industrial and knowledge powerhouse.

3. Middle Powers: Israel, Saudi Arabia, UK and India.

Israel is the defacto leader in middle-east today. It has unrivalled intellectual potential. its hard power is felt as far as europe, central-asia and south Asia. Entire middle-east is in its thrall, its existence and prosperity is the cornerstone of american and european foreign policy. It is one of the top 4 largest arms suppliers in the world. its economy one of the most innovative.

Saudi-Arabia: The worlds preeminent energy supplier, it sets the pace for global energy prices and supplies and hence the health of global economy and power relations. it is the custodian of the two holy mosques and a leader among the billion strong islamic world. Immense financial and inspirational source for wahhabi terror, which even ramzan kadyrov laments, has driven chechens to mass-terror. Through its arabic language and islamic literature exercises immense soft-power thorughout the islamic world and hence eurasia and North-America.

UK: Financial centre of the world, despite New-York claiming the throne. Through its imperial past and its language exercises phenomenal soft-power throughout the world. Rapidly replacing french language in global discourse, has significant hard-power. One of the few nations with autonomous nuclear-triad and air-craft carriers. Robust economy, shelters world famous criminals and masterminds and influences europe through divide and rule, without itself joining the euro. Sponsers terror and political subversion through first rate spy network and NGOs and masterfully keeps Eurasia destabilized and weak.

India: One Billion people, neo-liberal coolie of the americans. Rapidly expanding economy, brilliant but servile people ready to hand over their nuclear assests and military complex to americans, exercises considerable soft-power through yoga, philosophy, ancient heritage, film industry. Most significant strategic location with China in North-east, Middle-east in the west, Central-asia in the north and Indian Oceon in the South. Significant and rapidly expnading consumer of energy. Immense potential for hard-Power and Innovative Economy. Rapidly Increasing population.

Minor Powers:

Germany and Japan due to their innovation and economy (but colonies nonetheless), rapidly declining and decaying populations facing extinction. Germany crushed under permanent guilt.

France: due its still pervasive soft power through language and culture (though declining), its influence in Africa, its significant hard-power and force-de-frappe. Veto member in Security Council. Legacy power from imperial times.

Brazil: Largest Latin Country. Leader in South-America. Trying to be an innovative economy. Significant natural resources, expanding gdp and population. Portuguese is not a global language though, so a soft-power hadicap.Soccer.

Turkey: Third most powerful NATO country. Immense Geostrategic Importance, rapidly expanding energy hub. Guaranteer of Israel's security. Expanding population and economy, trying to be an innovation and financial hub, Significant ability and say in NATO decisions, unlike germany and other colonies. Significant legacy Soft-power from ottoman era. Leader among turkic nations.

Iran: A near minor power. Some legacy soft-power. Leader in the Shia World. One of the main energy suppliers mostly in Euros, Immense geostrategic significance. Never been colonized by European Powers, like Thailand and Ethiopia except during active wars. Significant cultural influence since ancient times in middle-east, caucasus and central-asia.

Among Minor powers only Turkey has the potential to become a middle-power in next 10-20 years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geopolitics8 (talk • contribs) 11:03, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

No.

-G —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.24.149.170 (talk) 20:37, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

What a load of rubbish - where did you get that hierachy of powers? I don't think Israel or Saudi Arabia even come close to the power of France or India let alone the UK. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Colliver55 (talk • contribs) 12:59, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Egypt?

Would anyone consider Egypt a regional power of the African or Middle East? The German Institute of Global and Area Studies considers the Egypt the regional power of Africa . Egypt has the 2nd largest eceonmy in Africa after South Africa, and the largest armed forces in Africa and the Arab world, but this may be contested against Iran. Egypt also holds the largest popualtion of any Arab country. Heres a link http://www.giga-hamburg.de/content/forumregional/pdf/giga_conference_RegionalPowers_0612/giga_RegPowers0612_paper_fuertig.pdf

please sign and date your posts. the article you are quoting does not say that egypt is definately a regional power in africa, north africa, or anywhere. indeed the article mainly talks about how egypt used to be a regional power, and how much it's power has declined. Willy turner 10:49, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mexico a Regional Power?

I don't agree that Mexico is a Regional Power at least of Latin America, it could be a Regional Power of Central America, but nowadays it is considered to be part of North America.

In the other areas of the world, the article is divided between East, West, North, South not between ethnic or languagegroups. If this was the case in Europe it could be considered, Latin, Germanic, Slave and even Anglo-Saxon groups.

If we consider this, in the Americas case it should be South America and not Latin America.

Second case, Mexico has a great GDP but in overal terms GDP is not the only factor, we should consider military, power projection and foreign policy. Mexico has a ridiculous military and projection power and politically is a subalternous nation to the USA

Argentina, Venezuela or Colombia have greater military and power projection capabilities, historically they have been much more interventionous and agressive toward other nations than Mexico and today we can see the same, specially in Venezuela case. ACamposPinho 16:11, 13 May 2007

Personally I agree with you, but you need sources to say it. This encyclopedia is not a place for Orignal Research. Furthemore, editors have produced sources saying Mexico is a Regional Power of Latin America, if we change it to South America there would be no place in wich to put Mexico. Besides, Brazil's influence is not restricted to South America, it would not make sense to say it is restricted since the sources don't agree.Chico 15:43, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chile

Can someone read the section on Chile and tell me that's not biaised and awfully written? Plus, I'm sorry to say that if Chile is considered a regional power, we'd have to include Argentina and Colombia... Maberk 01:44, 27 May 2007

[edit] GA on hold

The article is very well-written, and is very comprehensive with plenty of information across a broad spectrum. It is also very throughly referenced, however the references are unformatted. At the moment, only one reference is formatted properly (reference 105 next to the superpower note). The article seems to pass all other criteria, but with this many references they should be formatted. - • The Giant Puffin • 15:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

The lead should probably be expanded as well. --Nehrams2020 20:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
The references are still not formatted properly, and its been seven days, so I'm failing the article. Once you format the references with the {{cite web}} method, and expand the intro a bit, you should be able to obtain GA status in the future - • The Giant Puffin • 10:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map

The different regions should be a shade of a light colour, and the respectful powers in a darker shade.


[edit] Argentina

Why is Argentina listed as a regional power? I agree that it is an important country in Latin America, but it does not meet the criteria of a regional power.

The truth is that Argentina is still recovering from a severe economic crisis, it's military has been reported as practically inoperational, as reported by "La Nacion" (a major Argentine newspaper) on its June 11, 2007 cover story: [1]. The article describes the Argentine military as in being in "terminal state", citing that out of its already small and old aircraft fleet (less than 100 in total) fewer than 30% are operational.

Furthermore, the country is not considered a regional power by its neighbors or the international community. An evidence to this is that there are no sources to back that up, resulting in (Orignal Research). Therefore, I think it should be removed from the article.

Any opinions on this issue? Limongi 17:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC)


________________________________________

Hi,

I think it is a regional power. Furthermore, it is the second or third "most important" nation in Latin America.

Neighbours do recognize Argentina as a regional power. Brazil and Argentina are usually referred to as "the Major MERCOSUR partners" while the rest of them are the "junior" ones. You can check that, for example, in [Mercopress, a southern-hemisphere news provider]. Also, you will see a lot of inmigrants from Bolivia, Paraguay and Peru going to Argentina in search for job oportunities. The article gives a lot of other reasons of why Argentina is a regional power, and it does hav e alot of references.


Hi!
I agree with you that Argentina is an important nation in Latin America. It has a large economy, population and land area. But I still don't think it meets the "criteria" to be considered a regional power, especially these:
  • Comparatively high military capabilities - (in Latin America, Brazil, Mexico, Chile, Colombia and Venezuela have higher military capabilities and budgets [2])
  • Economic capabilities - (Argentina's GDP is less than half of that of Brazil or Mexico [3])
  • Political influence - (Besides Argentina's participation in peacekeeping missions (which many other Latin American countries have also done), it is not an influential global player or member of any high-level organization (G8+5, OCDE, G4, etc).
As for the references, they do not state Argentina as a regional power. Until you can provide sources that back your statements, I propose that Argentina should not be included in this article. Limongi 22:24, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
P.S.: Also, please sign your comments! :)


__________________________________________

Hi again, While Argentina does not have a powerful military and political influence on the world stage, it does in Latin America, and that is whata regional power is about: the region.

1 - :*Comparatively high military capabilities - If you check the List of countries and federations by military expenditures, you will see that Argentina spends more on its forces that Chile, Colombia and Venezuela. Do not be fooled by the "military size" lists: Argentina has a professional army, no conscipts. Chile, Venezuela, Colombia, Brazil and Mexico all have conscription. - Also, no other Latin American nation´s army has participated in so many missions like the Argentine. The US itself declared Argentina a MNNA because of that.

2 - :*Economic capabilities Argentina has the highest GDP PER CAPITA in South America. Almost 50% more than Mexico and Brazil. Also, its GNP is way above the Latin American average, in third place. It also tops the HDI Index in Latin America. Another example of Argentine influence would be the "Tango effect": Argentine economic crisis severely affected countries all over the continent, specially the neighbouring ones.

3 - :*Political influence The article mentions a lot about Argentina political influence in the region. It discouraged military takeovers in Ecuador and Paraguay and served as one of the four guarantors of the Ecuador-Peru peace process. As I said before, is regarded as one of the major partners of the MERCOSUR, togheter with Brazil; and people from all over Latin America come to Argentina in search of job opportunities. (That is a fact, you can look for Argentine inmigration numbers, and from where they come.) Most of the nations in Latin America diplomatically support the Argentine claim for the Falklands, despite their ties with the United Kingdom.

I recognize that if Argentina was located in europe, it wouldnt be a regional power at all. But being in Latin America, it is. So I vote for it to stay. Greetings, A.D. (not registered yet)

I think you are missing an important point, with all respect to your opinions, it doesn't matter much what we think about who is regional power. If there are outside resources mention a country clearly as regional power then it should be here and if not then forget it.
Have a look to all other countries, in the first sentence there are more than one reference for each of them.Farmanesh 07:12, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

_____________________________________________________

In the article you will find references to Argentina regional leadership in a wide range of issues.

If you want "outside resources mentioning the country clearly as regional power", In [the W. Clinton foundation website] you can check U.S. President Bill Clinton talking about Argentina: - "President Clinton responded by expressing similar appreciation for Argentine leadership on a number of issues" - "President Clinton mentioned -- talked about the Argentine role as the coordinator, beginning in 2000, of the free trade area of the Americas negotiation --" - "He noted that in the peacekeeping area, Argentina was actually the senior partner, having made a greater contribution to international peacekeeping than even the United States. Argentina is, in fact, the largest contributor to international peacekeeping in the Western Hemisphere." - "He also expressed appreciation for the Argentine lead in providing police to U.N. peacekeeping operations" - "Argentine leadership in promoting transparency and openness in global arms transfers. In this connection, he was praising Argentina's leadership in promoting a hemispheric convention on transparency in arms transfers."

Another Outside Source would be the [Council of Hemispheric Affairs] - analysis was prepared by COHA Research Associates Hampden Macbeth and Shana Ramirez: - "two South American countries still contend that Brazil and Argentina must not lose sight of their new transcendent roles as important regional leaders (...) Argentina fading as a regional power but with strong prospects of revival under President Néstor Kirchner".

Another Outside source would be David Sheinin from the Trent University, in [this article from the Tel Aviv University web]: - "Argentina became a leading training center for scientists and technologists from underdeveloped countries." - "In the 1980s, as a result of the international ties that were formed in the wake of its nuclear development, Argentina emerged as a leader of the non-aligned movement." - "With the possible exception of India, Argentina became the strongest voice among the developing nations excoriating both the Soviets and the Americans for their failure to significantly reduce the threat of nuclear war."

There are severeal other outside references in the article that back up the information. As a matter of fact, all the references are from outside. A.D.

Ah, i dont check on the page for a few weeks and some sly Argie thinks he can include his shitty country as a regional power without ANY sources backing him up. Dont worry friends, Argentina will NEVER be included on this page. You werent so powerfull when we BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF YOU in the Falklands were you? Rule Britannia! Willy turner 16:16, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

___________________________________________________

We are having a discussion over here. While the issue may be discussed, you have no right to delete the whole section just because you dont agree, and you specially have no right to insult me and my nation for no reason. I did nothing to you and I dont deserve to be treated that way. I just got registered in Wikipedia, so I will see what I can do about this. I strongly encourage you to read about civility. Of course, I have undone your vandalism.

For those who would like to keep discussing this issue seriously, I already gave you my outside sources: U.S. President Bill Clinton, the Tel Aviv University and, most important of all, the Council of Hemispheric Affairs, which refers to Argentina clearly as a "Regional Power", and talks about Argentine "Regional Leadership".

I have taken out some references that, while talking about Argentine leadership on certain issues, did not specifically refer to its regional importance.

Aletano

The comment made by User:Willy turner was offensive and a clear disrespect to Wikipedia's code of conduct (WP:CIVIL). May I remind that user that "our code of civility states plainly that people must act with civility toward one another". Also, no one is the "owner" of an article, even if that user has been the sole contributor to that article (which is not the case).
I still opose the changes made by Aletano as none of the sources mention Argentina as a regional power (only as a regional leader). But, since there is still not a clear consensus on whether or not Argentina should be included, for the time being I removed the irrelevant information (there is no need to mention that Argentina has two power plants, participated in peacekeeping missions, etc). Hope to see other opinions on this issue. Thanks. Limongi 02:04, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


Please note that the main reference, the one from the COHA, clearly states: "with Argentina fading as a regional power but with strong prospects of revival under President Néstor Kirchner."
While the remark "fading" is a negative one, a literal interpretation tell us that, if something "is fading", that means that it has not yet "faded". So, Argentina is -still- a Regional Power.
Also, please note that the article was written on 2005. Since that year, Argentine growth has been +8% of its GNP, so those "prospects of revival" were clearly right. (You can check that on CIA Factbook)
It also says that "Brazil and Argentina must not lose sight of their new transcendent roles as important regional leaders". A Regional leader cant be too far away from being a regional power.
The reference from the COHA is a trusty one. It is not an unknown organization, it even has its own article on this Wikipedia.
Aletano
I'm not sure what is the difference between a regional power and a regional leader; and I don't know if Argentina is a regional power or not, but. Nobody denies that Brazil is more of a regional power than Argentina, but that doesn't keep Argentina from being one as well. I think you are failing to see the subject in a more atemporal way: Argentina has being a Regional Power without doubt during the first half (and perhaps more) of the 20th century, and is currently one of the fastest growing economies in the world (time will tell for how long). Argentina's influence in countries like Bolivia, Peru and Ecuador, is much more important than that from Chile or Brazil in several ways. Also, nobody gave solid argument against the unregistered (A.D.) user's answer. Argentina might have half of Brazil's GDP, but twice its PPP.
Talking about references, you will also find references quoting Brazil as a non-regional power[4]
my 2 cents. --Mariano(t/c) 12:38, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Limongi, not all the information that you erased was irrelevant. I restored some information that was not irrelevant, like what globalsecurity.org says about Arentina role in mantaining peace on the region. Also, my source clearly says "regional power". Why do you keep changing it to regional leader? Its the same thing anyways... Finally, I noticed you deleted the amount of Gas Natural Production. Why Mexico can have their amount of oil production, then? I restored that too. Aletano 21:59, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
New source found and added: Internationale Politik, the journal of the German Society on Foreign Relations, has an article that clearly states: "...Furthermore, South American countries other than Brazil and Argentina would probably prefer US leadership to the leadership of any South American regional power or to some entente between the most important regional powers, Argentina and Brazil."
For those who wanted more references than the one from the Council on Hemispheric Affairs, this should settle the issue. Aletano 23:59, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Im sorry to bust Argentina's bubble, but is could not possibly be a reigonal power. In 1982 the country of Argentina took over the UK owned Falklands islands. With in 3 months the Falklands were retaken by the UK, country over 8000 miles away. No country with regional influece can loose a war to a none regional power and still be a regional power.


Im sorry but that doesnt make any sense. First, because you are talking about something that happened 25 years ago. Second, most countries listed in this web as a regional power would probably lose a war against the United States. So, they should all be deleted, then? I think the "regional power" concept is quite clear: A power within the region. Losing a war against another power from outside the region doesnt keep a country from being a regional power. When you say "No country with regional influece can loose a war to a none regional power and still be a regional power." do you have any sources to back that up or is it just your opinion? There are outside sources calling Argentina "a regional power". They are listed in the article. Aletano 06:44, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

So your telling me that losing a war in your region still makes you regional power even though you cant take a few islands. Wow I see your logic, but theres one problem. It doenst make sense. This article mentions Brazil and Chile \, but not Argentina http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/article.aspx?id=739. This article mentions Argentina as a regional power after WW2, but declined over time and Brazil and Mexico now becoming the regional powers. It also mentions Venuzala as a rising regional power, but not Argentina. https://email.rutgers.edu/pipermail/global_initiative/2006-October/000096.html

You still make no sense. So I have to repeat myself. First, because you are still talking about something that happened 25 years ago. Second, because most nations listed in this article have actually lost wars against powers from both: outside and inside the region. Japan, Germany, France, the Russia-China war, Turkey (which also failed to "take an island"), Mexico and the more history you know, the more examples that can be given.
About those articles: one of them is not even an article, but an e-mail. The other one, who mentions Brazil and Venezuela as regional powers, was written by "José Orozco", a venezuelan freelance journalist.
The articles that portray Argentina as a Regional Power, listed in the article, come from the Council on Hemispheric Affairs and from Internationale Politik, two well-known organizations. Finally, if you start looking for articles that state that some country is not a regional power, you will find several of those for each country listed here. As an example of that, here is an article that states that Brazil is not a regional power: [5]. Of course, I would never suggest to remove Brazil from the list, as it is quite clear that it is a regional power. Aletano 22:48, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe that in Latin American only Mexico and Brazil could be considered regional powers, Argentina does not have the economy, nor the population, nor the global presence to be considered with such title, the thing is that a lot of statistics are only focused on South America (and not all of Latin America), therefore in SA they have to put someone beside Brazil, that's why they include Argentina, but if the statistic include all of Latin America, then it would only include Mexico and Brazil because Argentina is not even closed to these two. Supaman89 18:05, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

There are two valid referenced sources that state that Argentina IS a Regional Power. To counter that, we will need more than just your opinion. Aletano —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.136.190.63 (talk) 16:06, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
The sources are invalid. One [6] states Argentina as a regional power in SOUTH AMERICA, and not Latin America. The other mentions Argentina as a "fading regional power" in South America [7]. Furthermore Argentina does not meet the criteria established in the article's definition. Therefore, by consensus and until relevant sources are added, Argentina shall be removed from the article. Limongi (talk) 22:55, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Sources are valid.
1. South America constitutes more than 70% of Latin America total economy and geography.
2. A "fading" regional power is a regional power, until it completely fades.
As I said before, in order to counter sources you need other sources, at least two of them, stating that Argentina is not a regional power. Also, those sources must be as reliable as the ones cited.
Finally, there is no concensus when you come here, delete, and state that "concensus has been reached".Aletano (talk) 01:06, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
There are now two more sources indicating that Argentina is a regional power (4 in total). Aletano (talk) 02:49, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Italy/Regional Power link

I provide a link where is clearly cited that Italy is a Regiona Power:

http://www.carabinieri.it/Internet/Editoria/Rassegna+Arma/2001/3/Studi/02_De_Marchi.htm

Besides this link, I think Italy should be included as a Regional Power, based on the definition itself and by comparing it with other lesser powers that are considered Regional. Italy is part of the Contact Group for Kososvo, along France, USA, UK, Russia and Germany. It has regional influence in the balkans, note that Greece or Turkey are not on this group and are close to Kosovo too. If it wasn't a reginal power, Italy wouldn't be included.
Italy is also founder member of Central Europe Initiative and leader of that group. It has considerable influence in countries like Poland, which is closer to Germany, even in germanic Austria, Italy has great influence. Slovenian Air defence is done by Italy, Russia's third biggest partner is Italy, and so on.... It isn't a Regional Power?

ACamposPinho 1:55, 27 July 2007

Thanks for the link, I guess it is in Italian so you are welcome to use it in Italian wikipedia and mention Italy as a regional power there. As for English wikipedia, please find english reference. If Italy is a regional power there should be plenty of such english references as there are for all other countries in the list.
As for your reasoning, I respect them and don't reject them but it is OR. Please read wikipedia policy regarding OR.
Please note I have nothing against Italy as regional power; it is just the standard which should be kept. Otherwise soon we will have 190 countries listed here.Farmanesh 18:45, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
I saw in the Great Power page, some links regarding Germany's politicians general view of Germany as a midlle power in Europe, and those pages where all in german.
So, for Germany and Great Power there ins't problem, but for Italy there is in this section. In what we stand? The rules must be for all. Italy is a Regional Power.ACamposPinho 4:04, 31 July 2007
If you feel Germany has been unjustifibly added to that page please do protest and start a talk on article's talk page. As for any country here including Italy please find proper references. If there is no English reference regarding Italy as regional power while all other countries listed here have several, then Italy is not in the place for this article.Farmanesh 05:43, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, don't use falacious arguments. First you said to look to wikipedia policies, now you say that in this page there is a rule and other pages have other rules.
So, in what we stand? I think wikipedia rules aren't diverse from article to article and if we have german links in one page, we can have italian ones too. I also saw link in other articles to pages in Dutch, German, Swedish and so on.ACamposPinho 2:22, 1 August 2007
Do not misunderstand me please. I did not say there are different rules on articles. As far as using non-english refernces they are not encoraged as they are not easily verifiable. Based on wiki policy "Because this is the English Wikipedia, for the convenience of our readers, English-language sources should be used in preference to foreign-language sources, assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly." and "published translations are generally preferred over editors performing their own translations directly". But that said if non of above are avilble you may translate it this way yourself: "Where editors use their own English translation of a non-English source as a quote in an article, there should be clear citation of the foreign-language original, so that readers can check what the original source said and the accuracy of the translation."
However, we need more than one reference showing a country is a regional power. Please have a look to all other countries in the list. As you see they all have several references, I think you have checked for more reference and you have not find, otherwise why we have this discussion?Farmanesh 05:59, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to unknown editor who added reference for Italy. Would s/he please recheck his/her claim about mentioning Italy by "author B.A. Roberson". As far as given link goes there is not such mention in the book. Please provide the page which such claim has been made.Farmanesh 00:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I added it. Give me a minute or so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.226.67.36 (talk) 01:32, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Ok the book talks about turkey and the middle easts relation with the regional powers of france italy Uk germany in terms of trade and how turkey didnt come up to spec to those powers.
Oh one more thing can we please get some more links to why Italy is a regional power? I fear 4 isnt enough. Im gonna find more.
Thanks a lot. So which page says Italy is a regional power in that book? I tried to find but couldn't.Farmanesh 01:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

157-158 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.226.67.36 (talk) 01:56, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NORTH AFRICA

north Africa isnt included... i think we should include it with the Middle East, as Middle east and North Africa (MENA) since they are very much linked to each other culturally, and linguistically then North africa and the rest of Africa!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arab League (talk • contribs) 04:19, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Oceania

"Australia is considered a regional power by academics at the Australian National University." In the interests of non partiality It might be nicer to exclude pronouncements by Academia and People of the nation being described. 192.18.43.225 16:11, 15 October 2007 (UTC)blufox

[edit] pathetic article

this article is pathetic.It's just a bag of out of context quotes of some ,unknown academics,with the only merit that they have a degree,with no other consideration.--88.82.46.249 18:27, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Argentine?

Ok one small question. Why is argentina considered a regional power, even though it failed to capture 2 small islands on its front door step? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.69.186.204 (talk) 07:22, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Argentina is considered a regional power by the academic sources stated in the article, currently four.
Losing a war does not prevent a country from being a regional power - specially if you lose a war against a country from outside the region. That kind of reasoning is pointless: why is France listed if it was occupied by Germany? Why is Turkey listed if it couldnt get Cyprus? Why is Japan listed if it couldnt beat Korea? Why is Israel listed if they couldnt keep the Golam heights for themselves? etc...
Also, most countries listed in the article would surely lose a war against the United States. Following your reasoning, no country but the United States should be a regional power?
This issue has been discussed before, please read the discussion page for more details.


[edit] Aletano

This user participates in a fanatic way in every theme about the falklands war and always with a really nationalistic and partisan point of view. This time even when many users have debated with him and demonstrated with facts and argumentas that Argentina is not a regional power in comparison to Brazil or Mexico in Latin America, he sustains a kind of trolling around the article.

kardrak 21:25 UTC, 9 December 2007 —Preceding comment was added at 21:26, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

First, this doesnt have anything to do with the "Falklands war". I dont know why do you bring that up, I have never mentionated that in this article since it would be totally out of place.
Second, The inclussion of Argentina as a regional power in Latin America is backed up with four external sources. You have been vandalizing this page by removing Argentina without any kind of justification. Argentina has been listed for months in this web before you came in and decided to take it away. You need more than jusy your opinion to counter four external sources clearly citing Argentina as a regional power.
Lastly, please stop the personal attacks in my talk page, and also if you are going to revert changes, log-in first. Doing it without logging in to avoid the 3RR rule is against the rules.
Of course, you too have been reported for your fanatism. Aletano (talk) 03:32, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
{{editprotected}} As you can see in the history of the article, the user who asked for edit protection changed the article just minutes before requesting it. This is a strategy for him to make the changes he wants and avoid other people to revert them. The issue was being discussed in the "Argentina" section of this Talk Page, when he arrived and started removing Argentina. His changes were always reverted, so he just removed it and then had the page protected. Please revert this unjustified and undiscussed deletion of sourced material (vandalism): 18:20, December 9, 2007 Kardrak (Talk | contribs) (40,037 bytes) (Undid revision 176780223 by Aletano (talk)this user has been reported sevral times, is a fanatic from the Falkland's war.) (undo)

Aletano (talk) 03:40, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


As everybody notice, there is not consensus, so as Limongi said, without a consensus the best for the article is to remove Argentina. This article is very old and at the begining there was not any mention to Argentina, so we should not be arguing about why not to include it, but why yes? At same time is evident that nobody else support the insertion of Argentina on this article except by Aletano; just take a look at all the discussion.

kardrak 4:25 UTC, 11 December 2007

Argentina has been included for months until you came and started removing it. If you care to take a closer look at the discussion, you will notice that most people who was against was only saying that there were no external sources to back up the information. Since four external sources were found, that people stopped making any comments. (And Argentina remained listed for months). But you just wont care about that. You come here and instead of discussing the issue, you make personal attacks against me calling me a fanatic from the falklands war (I havent edited any falklands-related article in months) and a troll. Well, maybe you are the troll, since you are the one who started the edit war. Aletano.

N Edit declined. No consensus, no clear description of proposed edit. Aletano, stop the personal attacks or you may be blocked. Sandstein (talk) 19:39, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
This is totally pointless. Argentina was there before, there was no concensus to REMOVE IT in the first place. Im frustrated that an administrator wont even care to look at the history of the article. Also, I didnt make any personal attack. On the other side, I was called a fanatic of the Falklands War, as if I have ever even mentionated the Falklands in this article, and I was also called a troll. Im totally upset with the low quality of Wikipedia admins. Im beggining to understand why serious institutions (Like Tutor.com for example) dont take this encyclopedia seriously and discourages students from looking for information here. Aletano (talk) 03:43, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

HISTORY OF THE ARTICLE

This is when Argentina started being included in the article: (cur) (last) 22:45, June 20, 2007 Limongi (Talk | contribs) (36,916 bytes) (→Latin America - Removed irrelevant information related to Argentina) (undo)

This is when Kardrak -using just his IP- deleted Argentina for the first time, without any reason, more than four months later: (cur) (last) 19:55, October 29, 2007 189.180.70.169 (Talk) (39,307 bytes) (→Latin America - true) (undo)

This is just to show you that Im not the only one who has reverted Kardrak´s vandalism: (cur) (last) 19:55, October 29, 2007 AnonGuy (Talk | contribs) m (40,732 bytes) (Reverted 1 edit by 189.180.70.169 identified as vandalism to last revision by Pataramyra. using TW) (undo) (cur) (last) 21:46, October 29, 2007 Farmanesh (Talk | contribs) (40,732 bytes) (Undid revision 167955553 by Kardrak (talk) Why you delete referenced material? thats vandalism. If you have a point, say in talkpage) (undo) (cur) (last) 11:47, October 3, 2007 Farmanesh (Talk | contribs) (40,513 bytes) (Undid revision 162018435 by 198.209.30.104 (talk) rv vandalism) (undo)

And finally, this is to show you how Kardrak changed the article and asked for protection inmediately after: (cur) (last) 18:46, December 9, 2007 Ryan Postlethwaite (Talk | contribs) m (Protected Regional power: edit war [edit=sysop:move=sysop] (expires 21:46, 12 December 2007 (UTC))) (undo) (cur) (last) 18:20, December 9, 2007 Kardrak (Talk | contribs) (40,037 bytes) (Undid revision 176780223 by Aletano (talk)this user has been reported sevral times, is a fanatic from the Falkland's war.) (undo) Aletano (talk) 04:35, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I happen to agree that Argentina should not be listed as a regional power. I'm so sorry, Aletano, that your beloved country lost much of its old glory. --Taraborn (talk) 22:43, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Current powers": Inherent flaw

Wikipedia is encyclopedia: what is "current" today will not be current tomorrow. Wikipedia articles are not newspaper, and should not be snapshots of the "today".

Therefore I suggest to remove the word "current" and make titles to include time period stamp, e.g, "--United States (since 20th century)--" (or since 19th?), "--Soviet Union (1945-1992)--", "--Iraq (??-??)--", etc., Any comments? `'Míkka>t 08:51, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Nice thing about wikipedia is it is not paper and can change with time. -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 10:27, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
You totally missed my point. A have no problem with changing with time. I am against amnesia. Past information is just as encyclopedic as today's. If some country was "regional power" 20 years ago it must be listed here as well. `'Míkka>t 16:48, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
You might want to check out Historical powers then. -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 00:52, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
A good pointer, badly missing from the article. Added. But... The article specifically talks about really old powers, ending by 1814. `'Míkka>t 01:38, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Israel

Israel was always and will always be the Middle East's Regional Power. Israel's got the strongest economy (Not a one that will fall in 20 years (Iran, Saudi Arabia)), by far the strongest military force. Israel's relativly low military budget is because soldiers get a very low pay. Compare Israel's GDP per capita to Iran, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Guy0307 (talk) 01:17, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mexico is apart of BRIMC

Can someone add that the BRIC has now changed to the BRIMC (Brazil, Russia, India, Mexico and China) as the next top five dominating countries? Casey1817 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 06:06, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Who said Saudi Arabia's GDP is higher than Irans?

Here: List of countries by GDP

List by the International Monetary Fund 21.Iran $647,592 28.Saudi Arabia $417,669

List by the World Bank 15.Iran $734,500 22.Saudi Arabia $491,000

List by the CIA World Factbook 20.Iran $599,200 28.Saudi Arabia $371,500

[8] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kermanshahi (talk • contribs) 19:29, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe the list is referring to nominal GDP, not PPP. Bogdan що? 20:45, 9 January 2008 (UTC)