Talk:Reginald Dyer

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[edit] Brigadier-General?

I believe the rank in the British Army is simply "brigadier," not "brigadier-general."

You are correct that today the British Army has the rank "Brigadier". However back in 1919 the British army had the rank "Brigadier General" which is still used by the US Army for this rank. See this extract from Wikipedia - British Army Officer Insignia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army_officer_rank_insignia:

Brigadier-Generals wore a crossed sword and baton symbol on its own. In 1922 the rank was replaced with Colonel-Commandant, a title that reflected the role more accurately, but which many considered to be inappropriate in a British context. From 1928 the latter was replaced with the rank of Brigadier with the rank insignia used to this day. --Rameses 03:57, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV check

It is understandable that people are thoroughly angry with the actions of Reginald Dyer. He did, after all, order the massacre of unarmed civilians. However, the recent history of this article has involved numerous violations of WP:NPOV. In order for Wikipedia to work, it must be fair and neutral in dealing with all subjects, including those who committed atrocities. This doesn't mean that the article has to in any way deny what Dyer did. (The Adolf Hitler article spends a long time talking about the Holocaust.) However, the article cannot take positions on his actions. It can't say that his actions were "abominable" (even though they were, in my opinion) nor can it call him a "butcher," as that is a loaded word. Hence, I've nominated this article to be checked for its POV. --Hnsampat 22:31, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

It's good to see Category:Terrorists gone for good at least, but I do not think that Category:Mass_Murderers is appropriate either. If we go that way, we'll have to put pretty much every historical leader as well as a lot of other notable people into that category. So far we've already got Christopher Columbus there, who next, Alexander the Great? Genghis Khan? George W. Bush? -- int19h 06:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I would also ask to not remove the POV-Check tag please. It is there for a reason, and for as long as the dispute is not resolved, it should remain in place. It is not meant to be removed by a single editor just because he thinks the issues raised are not valid. Furthermore, it is not even stating that the article is non-NPOV, it is merely an invitation for all WP editors to check the neutrality of the article. Why is that a problem? -- int19h 06:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] MASS MURDERERS

Mass murder (massacre) is the act of murdering a large number of people, typically at the same time, or over a relatively short period of time. Mass murder may be committed by individuals or organizations.

Although some consider that "genocide" may exist where there is merely an intention or plan to exterminate a particular group (whether it is so-called inflamamble or else a non-inflammable material), and that killing is not a necessary condition, by contrast "mass murder" involves the actual killing of a large number of people.

General Dyer, as a Government representative, had acted ultravires and had committed murderous frenzy on a peaceful civilians who were gathered at Jallianwala Bag simply to protest against the Governments ultravires actions. Moreover, General Dyre is reported to have used very threatening and terrorising language to terrorise/force the people to toe his line or else face further mass-killings from him (sic).

His actions were universally condemned, not even by the world in general but even by his own people in England, as ultravires.

Therefore, all of the following categories are appropriate for this State officer condemned for his unconstitional actions. It does not matter if it's Wikipedia or any other media, the facts must be adhered to and the world informed of.

Political repression

Terrorism

State terrorism

State terrorists

Mass murderers

Sze cavalry01 02:59, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Factual versus neutral

There's a difference between something being factual and being neutral. I'm not at all disputing the facts presented in this article. (Others may dispute them, but I don't want to get into any debate about the facts themselves.) However, neutrality is about the WAY in which those facts are presented.

Let me give you an example.

Facts:

Dyer ordered his troops to fire on the crowd in Jallianwala Bagh.
The crowd was unarmed and non-violent.
Women and children were present in the crowd.
Dyer offered no warning and no opportunity to escape.

Now, here's a sentence that, while based on the facts, is also far from being neutral (note: the sentences in this article are not this explicitly NPOV, but I'm trying to prove a point): "The bloodthirsty butcher General Dyer abominably ordered his troops to fire on the peaceful, innocent crowd. He had trapped them in the garden by blocking the entrances and then, without warning, ordered the slaughter of the crowd, including the heinous murder of little children."

Here's a more neutral version of the same facts: "All exits to the garden were blocked, either because the gates were locked or because Dyer's troops had blocked them. After that, Dyer ordered his troops to fire into the crowd, which included women and children. The members of the crowd were unarmed and had gathered for a peaceful protest. Even as the crowd attempted to disperse, Dyer ordered his troops to keep firing."

You see my point? The first sentence injects the author's point of view into the description of the facts (i.e. the author feels that the actions were "abominable" etc.) The second, more neutral version just states the facts as they are, without including any qualifiers. That's what neutrality is all about.

Now, on a side note, why can't we include Dyer in the categories of "Mass murderers" and "Terrorists"? Because the rules for those categories say that we can't. If you don't like those rules, you can discuss it on the talk pages for those categories and try to get the rules changed. However, right now, the rules say we can't do this. Just because you disagree with the rules doesn't mean you can break them. --Hnsampat 18:37, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

What more, "State terrorism" category is a subcat of "Terrorism". So the guy should go into one or the other, but not both. Since what this article describes is clearly state terrorism, that's where he should be. "Political repression" is also fitting. But the rest should go, as per their descriptions. -- int19h 07:13, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Universally condemned"

As far as I know, Dyer received a hero's welcome upon his return to England. I personally think that that is despicable, but if that did indeed happen, then it is incorrect to say that his actions were "universally condemned." As a matter of fact, the article states that Michael O'Dwyer endorsed Dyer's actions. And if O'Dwyer did so, wouldn't there be others in the British government who endorsed and/or failed to condemn the massacre? --Hnsampat 07:10, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unverified information

First of all, it's categorically against Wikipedia policy to assume that everything in this article is verified. (Please see Wikipedia: Verifiability.) The policy is that everything is questionable until it has been verified, not the other way around. Verifying the information is also the responsibility of the person who adds the information, not of the person who questions it. (In other words, I don't have to prove that something is true.)

Still, since somebody asked, I'll list some of the main points that I feel are not verified (this list is not comprehensive; these are just some of the big ones):

Dyer's testimony claiming that he offered no warning needs to be citied
The sentence about Dyer showing no remorse needs to be cited. (Also, it needs to be made NPOV)
What is the "Home Political"? I did a Google search on it and I can't find it anywhere. What kind of source is it? Is it reputable?
The "threatening language" stuff needs to be verified.
I need a source on Dyer receiving 18,000 pounds sterling upon his return to England.
Michael O'Dwyer's role in the massacre needs to be verified with independent sources.

When finding sources for this, they need to be UNBIASED and CREDIBLE.

Finally, please stop repeatedly removing the POV and fact-check tags. By having those tags there, we're not saying that this article is biased or that it isn't accurate. We're saying that somebody disputes the neutrality and factual accuracy of the article. Can't we at least agree that some people say this article is neutral and that others say it is not? Can't we at least agree that there is a disagreement or a dispute about whether this article is neutral or not? Just because one person thinks the article is neutral or biased doesn't make it neutral or biased. --Hnsampat 15:29, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] These Guys were not Saints: Drama at Jallianwala

Of course they were not. But it is facts we need in Wikipedia, not judgements. "1000 people killed" is an objective fact, "horrible barbarous atrocity" is a subjective judgement. Provide the former, and let the people make the latter for themselves. -- int19h 06:39, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stage Managing the Show. Pre-Massacre timeline

There had been peaceful demonstration against the Rowllat Act whom the Indians leaders including Mahatama Gandhi, Jawahar Lal Negru termed as Black Act. The people of Punjab followed the advice of their leaders and staged peaceful demonstrations urging the Government to take the black/draconian law back. As a sequence to it, there was a peaceful procession on the day of Ram Naumi (April 9, 1910), a Hindu Religious festival, in which the Sikhs and Muslims also participated along with the Hindus in Amritsar. The British Government, whose policy was to Divide and Rule, saw in it the grave seeds for India’s independence from the English yoke. The procession was unprecedented and exemplary and it passed off without even a slightest untoward incidence or provocation to the Government, which fact should have been greatly admired by any Civilized Government and Society. The Government machinery, however, was greatly discomfitted at the success of the procession and decided to arrest the leaders of the peaceful procession, Dr Satpal and Dr Kichlew. The orders of arrest were issued on the evening of April 9, and were implemented on early April 10. The People felt as if cheated. They resented the arrests of their beloved leaders and took out another peaceful procession on April 10 through Amritsar main streets to the residence of Deputy Commissioner, Amritsar, inorder to press for immediate release of their leaders. The peaceful procession was fired upon at Railway Carriage Bridge when it insisted to proceed to Deputy Commissioner's residence to discuss the matter with him. This firing resulted in deaths of 20-25 innocent persons and wounding many more which occured in the very front and close to Deputy Commissioner's residence. The crowd fell back and dispersed, but later-on, some infilterators/hooligans (government sponsored as the later investigations indicate) are said to have infilterated the processionists. When the those wounded in the firing were brought to the Hospital for medical aid, one nurse by the name Miss Easden, is reported to have sarcastically laughed on the processionists and made cutting remarks reportedly saying that the Hindus and Muslims have got what they deserved. This irresponsible remark by an English official added aspark and infuriated some of the peaceful and aggrieved processionists, some of whom then charged at her but Miss Easden was immediately removed and concealed somewhere by Hospital authorities to protect her from the wrath of the processionists (See: Report of Commissioners,Vol I, II, Bombay, 1920, Reprint New Delhi, 1976, p 48). Thereafter, in the afternnon, there followed some incidences of rampaging of the Alliance Bank, Chartered Bank and also of looting at the National Banks godowns at Amritsar, as also an attack by some hooligans on Miss Sherwood, a school teacher (Christian) while she was going on her bicycle, but she was rather fortunately rescued by the father of one of Miss Sherwood’s Indian students. The after-investigations however revealed that some Policemen had been apprehended and bank loot was recovered from them (See: Report of Commissioners,Vol I, II, Bombay, 1920, Reprint New Delhi, 1976, p 49). This revelation led to public suspicion that the show of violence/arsonage/loot prior to actual Jallianwala Massacre may have actually been statge-managed by the Government Machinery itself to prepare a ground for final and decisive show. Obviously, the government here was following a Machiavelian or Kautiyian policy to first flare up and ten control the situation by drastic repressive measures.

In the very close of Deputy Commissioner's residence, a firing was resorted to on the peaceful procession and 20-25 civilians were killed as a result. In the whole episode, 5 English employees were also killed during the loot/rampage that ensued after this firing in the afternoon when some hooligans had also infilterated the processionists. This all happened on April 10, 1919 (See: Report of Commissioners,Vol I, II, Bombay, 1920, Reprint New Delhi, 1976, p49).

[edit] Reaction of British Civil Servants to above incident

The killing of 5 Englishmen, an attack on Miss Sherwood (who was rescued by an Indian however), and the intended attack on Miss Eaden (who made sarcastic remarks to the processinists)...these three incidences, more than anything else, made the British Government Officers in Punjab very much enraged and infuriated. Mr Symour, a responsible ICS Civil Servant, is reported to have openly shouted: “ For a Single European's life, a thousand Indians would be killed…”. (See: Report of Commissioners,Vol I, II, Bombay, 1920, Reprint New Delhi, 1976, p 7). Another one of the high Civil Servants suggested indiscriminate Bombing of Amritsar ( including religious temple), but Lala Dholan Das informed the State British Machinery that if any part of Golden Temple was touched or damaged, there would be no end to trouble as the Golden Temple was held sacred all over the Punjab (See: Report of Commissioners,Vol I, II, Bombay, 1920, Reprint New Delhi, 1976, p 7, 19).

Other evidence indicate that, actual plans were indeed drawn to bombard the Amritsar City by Dyer’s orders, as per information furnished by statement of Col Dr Smith (op cit p 56).

[edit] General Dyer’s main anger on deaths of 5 Englismen and beating of Miss Sherwood

The Infuriated General, Mr Dyer is stated to have openly remarked to the the delegation of respectable citizens of Amritsar that “you have committed a bad act of killing Englishmen. The revenge will be taken upon you and your children (See: Report of Commissioners,Vol I, II, Bombay, 1920, Reprint New Delhi, 1976, p 60). Stated Dyer to the Inquiry court: “I felt our women have been beaten. We look upon our women as sacred. I searched my brain for a suitable punishment for the awful cases. I did not know how to meet it out . …I went down at the place where Miss Sherwwod was attacked. I ordered a Triangle to be erescted there. I felt the 10th Street out to be looked upon as sacred; therefore I posted pickets at both ends of the street and told them that no Indian be allowed to pass along here. If they must, they must go on all fours i.e by crawling on belly” (A Saga of Freedom Movement and Jallianwala Bagh, Udham Singh, 2002, p 150; Report of Commisioners, p 60; Disorder Enquiry Committee Repoert, Vol II, pp 203-205).

Numerous innocent and respectable/elite citizens, Government officials, religious persons and children, women and students were made to crwal on bellies, were made to slaam the Englishman of any standing and enforced the imposition of public floggings/strippings by the orders of General Dyer. Numerous dignitaries were made to crawl, and were meted flogging and forced to slaam (salute) the Europeans against their will. Ninety respected Atorneys/Lawyers of the City were forced to work as coolis to the Englishmen (Report of Commisioners, pp 117-118; A Saga of Freedom Movement and Jallianwala Bagh, Udham Singh, 2002, p 150-154, Prof (Dr) Sikander Singh)

[edit] On Inhuman Crawling, Slaaming and flogging/Stripping

The Saga of heart rending oppression following the Jallianwala massacre did not end here. Dehumanising punishments like humilating Crawling, flogging/Stripping and Slaaming were imposed on the Indians irrespective of their fault simply to downgrade their morale and to humilate their dignity and self-respect. It was actually aimed at teaching the Indian population a lession (Disorder Inquiry Committee Report Vol II, Reprint Delhi, 1976, p 198). All bicycles and electric fans (it was hot summer in Punjab) were taken into possession by force. Electric connections all over the City were cut off and water supply stopped. Restrictions on travelling by Railways imposed (op cit., p 207). The Shopkeepers were forced to open shops against their will and sell their commodities at prices determined by the authorities against severe penalities. Triangles were put up at several different places (Disorder Inquiry Committee, New Delhi, 1976, p 231-32). The notorious order to crawl on the bellies had been passed and enforced(ibid., p 203-204). Order was also issued and enforced to slaam Europeans (civil or military officials). In one case all students were punished when two students failed to slaam an Englishman (Ibid p 206, 208). Six boys were flogged since they happened to be fatter (and could not crawl). Lambardars were flogged and fined (Ibid, p 199). Exhibtions of martial law notices were pasted on the walls and owners of the properties were ordered to protect the notices from being defaced otr torn away failing which severe punishment was imposed. One notice stuck to the Sanatam Dharam College which was subsequently torn by somebody. Thereupon, Col Johnson punished the professors and students of the college and interned them for 30 hours (Ibid, p 199). A principal of another college was also punished (Ibid, p 200). The students were roll-called four times a day. 1000 students were made to walk 16miles a day in the heat of May for many days (Ibid 201).

FOR FULLER TREATMENT OF THE HUMILATIONS, MISTREATMENTS, FLOGGING, CRAWLING, and FORCED SLAAMING FOLLOWING THE MARTIAL LAW AT AMRITSAR, see Report of Commisioners and the Disorder Inquiry Committee report as referenced above. (Also ref: Udham Singh, 2002, p 150-154, Prof (Dr) Sikander Singh)

[edit] A day following the Amritsar Massacre

[edit] Threatening statement of Commissioner of Lahore to the Local Residents (April 14, 1919)

On April 14, at 2 PM, the Commisioner of Lahore had made the following statement to the local citizens of Amritsar: “Do you people want peace or war? We are prepared for either. The Government is all powerful. Sarkar has conquered Germany and is capable of doing everything. The General will give you orders today. The City is in his possession now. I can do nothing. You will have to obey his orders” (See: Report of Commissioners,Vol I, II, Bombay, 1920, Reprint New Delhi, 1976, p 11).

[edit] Terrorising Statement of General Dyer to the Local Citizen's Delegation (April 14, 1919)

“You people know well that I am a Sepoy and soldier. Do you want war or peace?. If you wish for a war, the Government is prepared for it, and if you want peace, then obey my orders and open all your shops; else I will shoot. For me the battle-field of France or Amritsar is the same. I am a military man and I will go straight. Neither shall I move to the right nor to the left. Speak up, if you want war? In case there is to be peace, my order is to open all shops at once. You people talk against the Government and persons educated in Germany and Bengal talk sedition. I shall report all these. Obey my orders. I do not wish to have anything else. I have served in the military for over 30 years. I understand the Indian Sepoy and Sikh people very well. You will have to obey my orders and observe peace. Otherwise the shops will be opened by force and Rifles. You will have to report to me of the Badmash. I will shoot them. Obey my orders and open shops. Speak up if you want war? You have committed a a bad act in killing the English. The revenge will be taken upon you and upon your children” (See: Report of Commissioners,Vol I, II, Bombay, 1920, Reprint New Delhi, 1976, p 11)

[edit] Public Gallows and Air-Shelling

Gallows wer erected in Public places in Kasur. They were put as nearer as possible to the scene of mob-outrage. This was done apparently on orders of Sir Michael O'Dwyer (Report of Commissioners, Bombay 1920, Reprint New Delhi, 1976, p 101).
An armoured train equiped with Machine-guns and search-lights, under charge of a British officers with British soldiers, was despatched from Lahore to Sheikhupura. It opened fire and killed many people (Disorder Inquiry Committe Report, Vol II, p 214).
On April 14, four Airoplanes from Lahore were flown to Gujranwala. They air-dropped bombs and fired machine guns on the people resulting in many casuilities (Disorder Inquiry Committe Report, Vol II, p 214

[edit] Whole Idea was to strike terror and teach Indians a lesson they shall never foget

New researches from classified files by distinguished researchers reveal that the Amritsar Massacre was actually stage-managed with Punjab Governor's full connivance and involvement "to teach the Indian population a lesson, to make a wide impression and to strike terror through-out Punjab" (See: A Pre-Meditated Plan of Jallianwala Bagh Massacre and Oath of Revenge, Udham Singh alias Ram Mohammad Singh Azad, 2002, pp 133, 144, 294, Prof (Dr) Sikander Singh; Jallianwala Bagh Massacre, A Premeditated Plan, Punjab University Chandigarh, 1969, p 24, Raja Ram; Disorder Committee Report, Vol II, Reprint, 1976, New Delhi, p 198).

I think that the actions of Brig. Dyer are nowadays completely taken out of contents. If you analyse a bit the entire situation in Punjab in 1919 an unbiased and neutral person (which I am not being neither English nor Indian) can understand why he took such a radical action. Moreover it did calm down the situation in Punjab, didn't it. Hence, his decision proved to be correct. I am sick and tired of constant attacks on Brig.Dyer from wide spectrum of Indian nationalists and European left wingers. Please learn a bit about the entire context of the events before launching your mantras.

[edit] A Closely Guarded Secret

The Amritsar Massacre plan is stated to have formulated in the Government House, Lahore by Michael O’Dwyer, Lt Governor of Punjab, and other top British bureaucrats, belonging both to military and civil. Lieutenant Col Smith was also present in this meeting (The Massacre that Ended the Raj, p 203, Alfered Draper). The meeting was unofficial and conducted by Michael O’Dwyer himself and whole drama was off official and oral, and was kept a top secret. However, it fell to the lot of General Dyer to carry out Michael O'dwyer's plan (Jallianwala Bagh Massacre, A premeditated Plan, Punjab University Chandigarh, 1969, p 24, Raja Ram).

[edit] Cruel, Barbaric, Cold-Blooded, Outrageous, Inhumuan Action

British House of Commons passed a reslution on 24th June, 1920 denouncing the Amritsar Massacre as “Cruel and Barbarous action” of British officers in Punjab and called for their trial, recall of Michael O’Dwyer and Mr Chemsford and repeal repressive legislation (The Times, London, June 25, 1920, cited in , Sayer, British Reaction of Amritsar Massacre, 1919-20, Reprint in Jallianwala Bagh Commemoration Volume, Patiala, 1997, p 41).

Mr C. F. Andrews calls the Jallianwala Bagh Massacre as “Cold-Blooded Massacre and Inhumane” (Home Political, K. W., A, June 20, 1920, Nos 126-194, National Archieves of India, New Delhi).

Brigadier General Surtees said in Dyer debate that “we hold India by force---undoubtedly by force” (Arthur Swinson, Six Minnutes of Sunset, London, 1964, p 210; cited in Psycho-Political compulsions of Jallinawala Bagh by Gurcaharan Singh, op cit, p 156)

Mr Mantague, the Secretary of State in India called it a grave error in judgement (Home Political, K. W., A, June 1920, Nos 126-194, National Archieves of India , New Delhi)

Winston Churchil, the Secretary of State for War at the time the time of the debate ain the Broitish Parliament, the House of Commons, called it an episode without precedent or parellel in modern history of British Empire…an extraordinary event, a monstrous event, an event which stands in singular and sinister isolation.

Herbert Asquith observed: " There has never been such an incident in whole annals of Anglo-Indian History nor I believe in the istory of our empire since its very inception down to present day….it is one of worst outrage in the whole of our history" (Hansard. 5th sec. Commons, quoted by Derek Sayer, British Commemoration of Amritsar Volume, Patiala, 1997, p 24) .

Moti Lal Nehru, father of Jawahar Lal Nehru, the First Prime Minister of India, called the massacre saddest and most revealing of all (Valentine Chitol, India Old and New, London, 1921, p 312).

Rabindra Nath Tagore (The first Nobel Laureate and distinguished educationist of India): "a great crime has been done in the name of law in the Punjab" (Tribune, Lahore, 16th April, 1919, See Government of India, Home Department, Political Deposit, Aggust, 1919, No 52, National Archieves of India, New Delhi)

The era of Michael O’Dwyer and Dyer has been deemed as an era of misdeeds of British administration in India (Government of India, External affairs Department, File No 1940, Newspapers (Secret), p 2).

[edit] Dyer’s few supporters at Home

The Morning Post (England), a conservative, pro-Imperialistic News Paper supported Dyer’s action on a flimsy ground deeming it necessary to “PROTECT THE HONOUR OF EUROPEAN WOMEN” (Morning Post, cited in Derek Sayer, British Reaction of Amritsar Massacre, 1919-20, Reprint in Jallianwala Bagh Commemoration Volume, Patiala, 1997, p 45). An announcement for the Dyer Fund was made in the newspaper and a large sum was raised for him (Morning Post, cited in by Derek Sayer in British Reaction of Amritsar Massacre, 1919-20, Reprint in Jallianwala Bagh Commemoration Volume, Patiala, 1997, p 45). A Thirteen Women Committee was constituted to present “the Savior of the Punjab with sword of honour and a purse”. Morning Post curiously blamed Mr Montegu, not Dyer for the cold-blooded massacre and for his court trial. Mr Montegu, on the otherhand, in his long letter to the Viceroy, went to the very heart of the matter, passing blame squarely on Michael O’Dwyer and frankly admitting “I feel that O’Dwyer represents a regime that is doomed”.

It is very interesting to note that, Michael O’Dwyer, who had used General Dyer for his plan and had himself masterminded Jallianwalla Bagh Drama, later ditched General Dyer during latter’s bad times.

[edit] After-effects of Massacre on General Dyre

Reports went afloat that Michael O’Dwyer was responsible for General Dyer’s downfall (The Life of General Dyer, London, p 117, Colving). General Dyer could not enjoy a comfortable sleep even for a day after the Massacre of Jallianwala Bagh (Ibid, Colving). After the barbaric incidence, his health rapidly failed and in 1921 he was stricken with paralysis and never recovered. He died at Long Ashton on July 23, 1927 of arterio-sclerosis and cerebral haemorhage, reportedly laden with guilt of Amritsar Massacre on his conscience. In the final moments of his life, he murmured: “but I don’t want to get better. Some say I did right while others say I did wrong. I only want to die and know of my maker whether I did right or wrong” (Alfred Draper, The Massacre that Ended the Raj, p 255; Dictionary of National Bibliography, op cit, 281, 651).

Sze cavalry01 22:18, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I'm impressed

Well, I must say that I am impressed with how swiftly you were able to provide all these sources. You seem well-versed in the events surrounding the massacre and I think that you could potentially expand this article even further using this information.

I just ask that that you act in the spirit of cooperation and that you adhere to WP:NPOV when adding information. Like I said before, Wikipedia has to be neutral in tone (because it's an encyclopedia, after all), even when talking about people who committed atrocities. Remember that for every source that says that Dyer was a butcher, there's another that will defend him. Because of the rules of neutrality on Wikipedia, it is required that both sides be shown. (I personally think that Dyer was cruel and cold-blooded, but I am having this discussion with you because Wikipedia policy requires that all articles have a neutral point of view.)

Please also remember that Wikipedia is based on consensus effort and compromise, not unilateral action. Therefore, please work with other editors and please don't be uncivil if they disagree with you, no matter how strong your opinions are. --Hnsampat 22:53, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category: Mass Murdereres

One of the most critic of Caxton Hall Episod, Mr BrianSmithson has himself suggested Mass murderers category for General Dyer and Michael O’Dwyer. See below the text from BrianSmithson himself.

The problem is twofold: First, any Category:Butchers would be ambiguous, as the primary meaning of "butcher" is someone who prepares animal meat to be eaten. Secondly, we already have Category:Mass murderers, which serves the purposes you are talking about, in my opinion. — BrianSmithson 15:13, 31 January 2006 (UTC) : See Link [1].

It was then agreed that Mass Murderers category be used both for General Dyer as well as Michael O'Dwyer. So please try to respect the edits/suggestions of other Wikipedians also.

Sze cavalry01 19:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

The problem there is that the Mass Murderers category itself explicitly states that a person who commits mass murder on behalf of a state, as Dyer was doing here, should belong in Category:War criminals, and NOT Category:Mass murderers. Therefore, thats the category he should be moved to.--Jackyd101 11:25, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup Tag

I added cleanup tag because "Amritsar Massacre" and "Massacre of Jallianwala Bagh" are the same incident, but in some places sequential sentences alternate between terms. In the "Reaction to Amritsar massacre" section can be found this quote. 'Mr C. F. Andrews termed the Jallianwala Bagh Massacre as "Cold-Blooded Massacre and Inhumane."' This could be confusing to people unfamiliar with the event (such as myself, initially). I didn't make the corrections myself because I don't know which is the preferred designation, so I respectfully leave the matter to my betters. Cheers. LordNaughty 09:39, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mr Chemsford

recall of Michael O’Dwyer and Mr Chemsford

Who is Mr Chemsford? Does this mean Lord Chelmsford the viceroy? The Wednesday Island 15:05, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request for Comment: categories applicable to article on Reginald Dyer

This is a dispute about what categories are applicable to the article on Reginald Dyer. In particular, the appropriateness of Category:Terrorists and Category:Mass murderers is disputed. 14:35, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute

See my statement at the similar RfC for the article on Michael O'Dwyer. The arguments are equally applicable here. In short, both categories are inappropriate as they explicitly exclude people acting "in the service of the state" (there's Category:State terrorism for that, and it's already present). Since Dyer ordered the massacre in his official capacity as a General, it was clearly carried out "in the service of the state". -- int19h 14:57, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Comments

Agree with int19h. Removing categories. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 16:18, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "... ensured that it was impossible for the British to leave India with honour"

The editor who keeps inserting the phrase has asked in the revert description:

Added back the impact, this is a quote from the book "the Butcher of Amritsat", please let me know why this is removed

I am not the one who keeps deleting it, but I am inclined to agree with him. The reasons are twofold. First of all, if it is a quote, it must be properly referenced. Also, the fact that it appears in the book does not make it factual, merely an opinion of the author of that book - meaning that it can only be included in the article if it is notable (i.e. the book is widely regarded as an important work on the topic, or there are other notable sources which support the statement), and even then clearly marked as an opinion. Though, to be honest, given the wording of the phrase (e.g. "leaving with honour and affection"), I don't think that it has any encyclopaedic value either way. -- int19h 13:16, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edits to Return to England and Crawling Order

Hi, regarding the four edits made by AliMaghrebi on December 7th:

(cur) (last) 15:04, 7 December 2007 AliMaghrebi (Talk | contribs) (23,475 bytes) (→Crawling Order) (undo)
(cur) (last) 14:58, 7 December 2007 AliMaghrebi (Talk | contribs) (22,917 bytes) (→Return to England) (undo)
(cur) (last) 14:57, 7 December 2007 AliMaghrebi (Talk | contribs) (22,916 bytes) (→Return to England) (undo)
(cur) (last) 14:53, 7 December 2007 AliMaghrebi (Talk | contribs) (22,890 bytes) (→Return to England) (undo)

I'd like to see some viable references for the unsourced conclusions that are not neutral at all. As well, they are off topic, since: "the illegitimate children of 'white' men and the drunken attacks [of the soldiers] on the local women" has no direct relation to the crawling order, but is unproven conjecture. Similarly, for the Return to England section, the last paragraph speaks in general terms and out of scope of the article. This article is not primarily concerned with the motivations of the classes, but rather the life history of General Dyer. Any political implications of the event and the supporters of the General's actions seem more appropriate in the separate article on the massacre.

If nobody has any objections I will undo those changes. If anybody is interested, we can work to do a rewriting of the added section to see if we can fit any of it in this article or in another relevant article.

Thanks.

Principia.draco (talk) 20:28, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Dyre.jpg

Image:Dyre.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 04:10, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

Two sentences in the article reference Ian Covin's biography of Dyer, yet I have the Colvin biography and the claims that O'Dwyer was responsible for Dyer's downfall and that he could not sleep a day after Amritsar do not appear on the page mentioned. I suspect the page number was plucked out of thin air. And there are vague "references" like "Government of India, External affairs Department, File No 1940, Newspapers (Secret)" and "Home Political, Sept 1920, No 23, National Archive of India, New Delhi", sources which can hardly be verified.--Johnbull (talk) 05:03, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

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