Talk:Reggie Ball

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Good article Reggie Ball has been listed as one of the Everyday life good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
March 5, 2007 Good article nominee Listed
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Contents

[edit] Vandalism

Hopefully, Reggie will make it through his first game before the next vandal arrives. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Excaliburhorn (talk • contribs)

I am assuming you can't really put anything in Reggie's bio that wouldn't constitute vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.207.61.98 (talk • contribs)
It's okay to state facts; for example, the fact that he lost to UGA all four years of his career is a fact and can be backed up with a citation, statistics, etc. However, the statement that "People don't like him" is difficult to prove, and thus is a bit on the vandalism side. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 21:17, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion/NPOV

I appreciate the additions to the article, but if we can't do so without violating WP:NPOV, then we shouldn't do so at all. It is true that Reggie is criticized, but I'm not sure it deserves an entire section, especially considering his progress so far. Perhaps a more logical sectioning would be based on time (High School, College) rather than the odd (General, Crit, vs UGA) setup we have now. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 22:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I updated the to do list with those things. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 23:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that Reggie' bio should have key career stats but I don't think he should be defined by his losses. He is one of the winningest GT QB's of all time and should not be remembered for his failures but rather GT's success on the field during his tenure (beating highly ranked opponents on the road, etc.).
Joe Ham, arguably one of the greatest GT QBs, even failed to take us to the BCS. Everyone expected a lot out of Reggie but sometimes they fail to realize how much better Reggie did than other QBs in peer universities. So goes life. -Excaliburhorn
Sounds fair to me. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 22:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Reggie's stats don't begin to compare with Joe Hamilton's. Joe's stats don't include bowl game (NCAA rules at the time) and are still better than Reggie's, even though Reggie played a lot more games. Also Hamilton had some good WRs, but never one as talented as Calvin Johnson, and he never had a defense as good as Reggie did either. Reggie's Ball legacy will not be a good one, if you are trying to portray it as such you are not accurately portraying Reggie Ball or his career. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.207.61.98 (talk • contribs)

[edit] UGA Career

Can someone explain to me why the stat lines from Reggie Ball's rivalry with UGA get repeatedly removed? I understand and agree when some of the editorial remarks are removed that people add to those stat lines, but I do not agree with just deleting stats in GT's most important rivalry. Rather than delete, if you think it portrays Reggie in too negative of a light, why not add a section on his positive accomplishments in big games? Instead of just deleting facts? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.39.0.39 (talk) 17:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

This whole article should be removed, the people who are in charge of it know nothing of football. You can't talk about Reggie Ball and not mention the negatives of his career, its ridiculous and ignorant to even try and do so. -kres —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.207.61.98 (talk • contribs)

Look guys, Reggie is still a student athlete at Georgia Tech and deserves such treatment. If you want to criticize his efforts, then go to a forum or call a sports talk show. For now, only facts, not opinions, about Reggie Ball should be included. This excludes slanted statements such as, "Reggie Ball failed as a GT quarterback." or "Reggie isn't as good as Joe and Shawn Jones." Reggie did what he could for GT and he should be appreciated not belittled like he is so often by fans of GT.
Citing inconsistencies as facts or statements about his "poor play" are non-encyclopedic. All college QB's are inconsistent and if they aren't, their teams win the national title and they win the Heisman. Let's be serious and just leave the article alone. Basic stats and bio are fine for now. - Excaliburhorn

This site features several articles that contain "public opinion" or"criticism" sections as long as it is stated as such. Also the fact the lost to UGA 4 times is not non-encyclopedic. Also while stating facts, it should be mentioned that Reggie's career stats contain bowl stats, while Hamilton's and Jones' do not. Reggie Ball made a choice to play big time college football, no one forced him. To accurately portray his career you have to at least mention the negatives of his career, otherwise the article defeats its own purpose... giving someone who knows nothing of Reggie Ball a look into who he was and what he did. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.207.61.98 (talk • contribs)

Type out exactly what you're going to put here and let's see if we can come up with a compromise. I understand stating that he lost to UGA all 4 times but comparing him to other QB's on a skill scale is unfair and not very subjective. I still think you just want to down Reggie Ball just for the sake of denegrating him rather than actually trying to inform people of his career. Look at Joe Hamilton, A.J. Suggs, or Eddie McAshan for examples of how we've made GT athletes wikipages. Note that there is no mention of Joe never being able to beat FSU or Eddie's relatively poor coverage reading abilities. - Excaliburhorn

Joe Hamilton is widely regarded as the greatest player in GT history, and one of the best in ACC history. He was 1st team All American Reggie never even made all-ACC. Hamilton almost single handedly beat FSU in 1999 and he never cost GT a game. Reggie made a bonehead play in all 4 UGA losses, including 3 of them at the end of the game. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.207.61.98 (talk • contribs)

First off, my point is that this isn't about those other QB's, this is about Reggie. The only facts about Joe/Shawn that should be included are that they have more passing stats than Reggie. You can't just say, "Reggie isn't as good as these guys."
Secondly, the first UGA loss for Reggie was a blowout and it wouldn't have mattered who QBed. The second UGA loss could've been blamed on that first play action touchdown that our safeties got burned on or the fact that David Greene came back in with a broken thumb to beat us. We had Shockley's number that year. The third year could've been blamed on another busted coverage play and a bad route by Bilbo that gave Demario Minter a green light for the pick. The fourth year came down to poor play calling and dropped passes. Watch that game again. Key plays where Reggie made the throw and the receivers dropped it.
Thirdly, okay REGGIE IS NOT JOE HAMILTON. I GET IT. Let's drop it. You know how many quarterbacks aren't Joe Hamilton, all of them. It's time to move on from those comparisons.
Reggie is a Tech man and deserves the respect of the Tech family. You guys gotta get off his case. You wanna attack someone. Attack the coaches, they get paid to recruit, train, and develop these kids. Ensuring proper execution, play calling, and fundamentals are their jobs.
I will continually remove anything that consists of "Reggie Ball was terrible" or "Reggie Ball is the worst GT quarterback" etc. 'cause I'll tell you right now I'd take Reggie over a dozen GT QB's that I can name off the top of my head. - Excaliburhorn

Here is the section that has been removed about 10 times. I feel it's factual and relevant. Please let me know if you disagreee and why.

Career Stats vs. UGA

- 2003 - 8-16 for 80 yds, 0 td, 1 int. 12 rushes for 49 yds. Lost 34 - 17 - - 2004 - 13-31 for 141 yds, 0 tds, 0 int. 13 rushes for -4 yds. Lost 19 - 13 - - 2005 - 18-35 for 155 yds, 1 td, 2 int. 14 rushes for 64 yds. Lost 14 - 7 - - 2006 - 6 - 22 for 42 yds, 0 td, 2 int. 11 rushes for -10 ydss. Lost 15 - 12 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.99.234.235 (talk • contribs)

I don't think these stats should be included because 1) They tell only a fraction of the story of each loss 2) They slant and feed an anti-Reggie/pro-UGA POV 3) Since 1940 these QB's never beat UGA Johnny Bosch, Pat McHugh, Bobby Blake, Jim Still, Fred Braselton, Jerry Priestley, Kim King, Larry Good, Jim Stevens, Danny Myers, Mike Kelley, Jim Taylor, Rick Strom, Darrell Gast, Donnie Davis, and A.J. Suggs.
For goodness sake, Shawn Jones lost to the Mutts his last two seasons. It's just something Tech QB's aren't proud of and don't deserve to have as a "key point" to their careers on the Flats. As I stated earlier, these stat lines are just numbers when compared to the fire and passion that Reggie Ball put out on the field every game for GT. If you think we lost to UGA just because of Reggie Ball four years in a row, then I should just stop perpetuating this discussion. -Excaliburhorn
Perhaps something like Jay Cutler (American football)#Career statistics would be a good compromise? —Disavian (talk/contribs) 03:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Thats fine, I'm tired of trying. Reggie Ball was a good player, but part of his legacy is losing in the big games for GT, especially rival UGA. If Wikipedia cant reflect that and be accurate, it doesnt matter that much to me.

[edit] 2007 Gator Bowl Eligibility

Went ahead and removed where someone put this in, as this article is forbidden to have anythign the least bit negative about Reggie. He is the greatest QB in NCAA history. - kres

Agreed, why confuse the issue by presenting the facts.

[edit] THANK YOU

Dear 67.207.61.98 (talk · contribs), thank you for writing a neutral, sourced bit on Reggie Ball that takes into account both his accomplishments and his failures. :) —Disavian (talk/contribs) 21:54, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] High School

Would someone like to translate the following from "High School Career" into proper English?

“ Reggie throw for 17,000 yards for his high school it was thrid in his high school. The first is 22,000 yards and 105 TD. ”

—Disavian (talk/contribs) 03:46, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reiterate Vandalism

Disavian or any other user mind if we lock this site to non-users? A few IP's have contributed but for the most part, they simply deface this article. Let me know your thoughts. Excaliburhorn 22:35, 15 Feb. 2007 (UTC)

It's generally difficult to get an article permanently semiprotected. If it was possible, I'd say go for it, but you'll have a hard time convincing them that there's a high enough level of vandalism on this page to justify it. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 04:06, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality? Not Here!

I believe one of the reasons this page gets vandalized is that it patently violates the "neutral point of view" Good Article tenet. Regardless of his statistics, he was a lightning rod for the team's issues in 2006. To <not> acknowledge that fact incites vandalism. Heck, the originator of this page openly declares non-neutrality when he says he won't allow a single negative comment. I also think the article missed the most important element of Reggie's story - that if you look at Reggie's play in 2006 and consider that he was having issues at the same time that eventually led him to be declared academically ineligible for the Gator Bowl, then this says something about Chan and Georgia Tech's athletic policy of letting seniors look out after all of their responsibilities...and whether that is the best thing for them as young men. Reggie needed help and didn't get it. Justifying it by saying he didn't step up or didn't ask for help is crap. Stringbean 21:43, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I lost your point somewhere in the middle. You appear to dislike the article and say it's too pro-Reggie POV, then you say that Reggie's problems aren't his. I was deleting people's vandalism that were simply "Reggie Sucks", "Reggie's Terrible Stat lines versus UGA", etc.. The way this article has matured is amazing. I reverted so much because it was straight up vandalism or so pro-UGA POV it didn't deserve to be here. It's funny how everyone took so much rage out on one guy. Drew Tate and Drew Stanton (arguably more problematic QB's) probably didn't get half of the flak that Reggie's gotten from just Tech fans. Excaliburhorn 11:59, 3-29-07

[edit] GA comments

Here is a breakdown, for me at this moment, of the article:

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    a (fair representation): b (all significant views):
  5. It is stable.
  6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
    a (tagged and captioned): b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA): c (non-free images have fair use rationales):
  7. Overall:
    a Pass/Fail: [[Image:|15px]]
  • 1b:needs a better lead, it's too short. His prominence today (if any) is missing from the article.
  • 1c:again, the lead.
  • 1d:TDs
  • 2b:the sources would look better using templates such as {{cite web}}.
  • 3a:this is too short for my liking. Really, I should have more information about the player's life before football, and after. It seems to be focused solely on the fact that he's a football player.

Bottom line: this article is very well written. I am going to put it on hold because I want the editors to take a look at the article and try to make it more broad in the information that it is conveying, especially his early life and now. Well done. └Jared┘┌talk┐  17:26, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I've fixed the easy stuff (citation templates and jargon)... —Disavian (talk/contribs) 20:23, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I tried to expand the lead to give a broader view of his contributions, what do you think? I understand that you're looking for information on him outside of his college/professional NFL career, but such information doesn't really exist. His official profile tells us he's a Management major, and we know that he's got a low GPA (declared academically ineligible to play in this year's bowl game). Otherwise... the information just isn't out there, AFAIK. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 21:00, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
OK, so here's what I'm going to do. I'm done some searching and found Marc Pugh, an article which may be shorter than this, but yet still has GA status. That was really my problem, was that there wasn't enough info in this article as there should have been. Otherwise, it is well written and I'm now going to promote it. Thank you for doing all the things I requested. └Jared┘┌talk┐  20:29, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Thank you :) —Disavian (talk/contribs) 23:52, 5 March 2007 (UTC)