Wikipedia:Reference desk archive/Miscellaneous/2006 October 7

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[edit] snl

Can anybody direct me to where I could view a clip of the time when Chris Farley hosted SNL in '97, right before he died? I seriuosly can't find it anywhere. Thank you so much. Temp

Try searching google with "October 25 1997 SNL" (the date of the show). You might find something. —Mitaphane talk 04:48, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 'Cloning' Oil

Silly question probably, but what with the whole ability of people to Clone animals (Dolly the sheep?), I was interested to know whether there was anything about the ability to (i think this is the word) synthesise oil? This is the oil as in that which is currently the major supplier of petrol (Brent crude is it?).

I know there are synthetic oils, just wondered whether it was possible to do the same for the type of oil that primarily powers current cars.

By the by I don't really want to hear the whole "we shouldn't even if we can" stuff - I don't mean it in a financially viable/long term way just purely a "could it be done" question"

ny156uk 00:33, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

The only way I can see that being applicable to cloning would be to clone billions of animals and crush them and heat them for years until they turn into oil. Not exactly practical; besides, you have plenty of animals already >:) --frothT C 00:41, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) The cloning of animals is done due to meddling around with the natural propagation process, not creating anything from scratch. Also, it is quite an unstable process in itself, reproducing genes that have already aged and deteroriated, and the process often leads to stillborn or seriously ill offspring. 惑乱 分からん 00:43, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Off the top of my head, I can't think of any organisms that generate, directly, anything like isooctane—so no, you can't get petrol straight from a cow. On the other hand, a number of plants produce some slightly heavier oils that – after a modicum of purification – are suitable use in diesel engines. (See biodiesel for details.)
Methane (natural gas) is generated by many microorganisms as they digest organic matter; methane escaping from some landfills is used to generate heat or electricity in many places.
There have been efforts to engineer microorganisms to generate larger quantities hydrogen gas (some organisms produce a small amount naturally); so far these experiments are fairly preliminary. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 01:10, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
An easier explanation is that currently it would take much more energy to recreate the oil than the energy we would eventually get from the oil. BTW that is a major problem with many forms of alternative energy. (If it takes 2 barrels of oil to get 1 barrel of synthetic oil what have we gained?) Nowimnthing 17:19, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
The two types of "cloning" you're thinking about are different in nature - animal cloning is done by taking genetic material from an existing animal, and allowing cells containing that genetic material to develop through natural processes into an animal which is merely genetically identical, but in essence a different animal altogether. As yet, we are unable to replicate objects. There have been attempts to utilize materials we don't need, or that can be easily cultivated, as energy sources - bagasse, for example, is made from sugarcane. Remember, though, that crude oil is not only valuable as an energy source, but as the raw material from which the majority of our plastics are produced. Using two barrels' worth of energy to produce one may not, indeed, be as outlandish as it may first seem... --Keira Vaughn 00:42, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't follow, how does that make it better to use 2 barrels of oil to make one ? StuRat 02:39, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the input everybody.

[edit] just curious

I've just stumbled across this subject lately and it's got me wondering, why exactly do Satanists believe in sin and indulgence but are against any form of illegal activity, as well as drugs and things like that? (at least, LaVeyan ones, maybe not others). Also, where do they meet, and do they even meet at all? And how exactly are they evil, and also, what do they believe in for the afterlife? I'm not trying to freak people out or anything, this is just an extremely interesting topic and the articles don't really have much information on the stuff I'm asking about. Thank you :) (see, there's a smile, you can come closer) Temp

As far as I've understood satanism, it mostly originated as a reaction to a perceived moralism of Christianity, which would hinder us from reaching our potential as individual human beings... "Evil" is an extremely biased term that should be avoided. I think the satanism article would cover several of your questions. 惑乱 分からん 00:23, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Satanism is pretty much by definition evil.. --frothT C 00:35, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually, it appears to be more selfish than evil. Also, personally, it seems more like a philosophy than a religion to me... 惑乱 分からん 00:37, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
...which is one of the aspects of Evil --frothT C 00:44, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Ehmm, evil is quite a vague concept, but as far as it's generally interpreted in modern culture, it'd mean "doing bad unto others", selfishness is "doing good unto self", which is quite distinct... 惑乱 分からん 00:54, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
My definition is that good is selflessness while evil is selfishness --frothT C 04:21, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Maybe, but selflessness is not necessarily good, and selfishness is not necessarily evil. JackofOz 21:28, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Evil is an extremely subjective term and you cannot call anything by definition evil, only say that you, yourself think its evil. Joneleth 08:28, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I notice that our aticle on satanism is quite good. It concentrates, however, on LeVay's satanism, who seems to have designed it as a antipole to Christianity which he conceived as destructive, imprisoning and hypocritical. I've once heard a TV interview with a satanic priest in Germany who explained that he considers his activity mainly as an offer of therapy to those who feel that hypocritical Christian values broke them and he offers them symbolic rituals to take up the fight against self-contraticing morality that has take hold of his concience. Hence, in order to understand satanism, you first need to study why many people are apalled by Christianity (and to avoid misunderstandings: this is to mean, by Christianity as they have experienced it via the conduct of their local community and personal environment -- not how a righteous Christian might like to have his religion ideally percieved.) Simon A. 10:29, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

new question

can anyone tell me about their afterlife beliefs? Temp 19:17, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Enough!

I'm fed up with the antics of Cablevision. Even though I'll miss BBC World, which is a better option: Dish Network or DirecTV? Pacific Coast Highway {blah • Happy Halloween! • WP:NYCS} 00:57, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

DirecTV, by far. --172.190.235.113 01:18, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll second that. --Hunter85014 04:31, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FAQ

Eventually, will every new question asked on RD be an FAQ?--Light current 01:05, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

That's the 23rd time this question has been asked. Take some number N in your mind. Assuming a sufficiently long stream of questions, a uniform method for representing questions as sequences of bits, and an upper bound on the length of such sequences, eventually all further questions asked will have been asked at least N times. But other questions may not be repeated at all. It depends a bit on whether we may model a certain fraction of the questioners as monkeys. If one in every trillion questioners just randomly bangs the keys, then every now and then (more then than now) one of them will almost surely repeat any previous question – and again, and again. Based on experimental observations, this model does not appear unrealistic.  --LambiamTalk 01:51, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] missing question

I asked a qestion about the Mars opportunity and spirit rover and now it's gone! ! Has someone deleted it from me?

If you asked on September 8, it's answered right here. We have to archive pages like this to prevent the reference desks from being HUGE. Hyenaste (tell) 02:50, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] historical curiosity

why is extending your middle finger referd to as whipping the bird?

the Dictionary of Slang explains that in the 1920's US the word bird was used as a name for a loud derisive noise kind of like blowing a raspberry at someone. The hand gesture goes back much further, probably as a variation on "give the fig" to somone (one thumb between two forefingers). The two became intertwined with "giving the bird" or "flipping the bird". I have not heard of "whipping the bird", but probably just another regional variation. Nowimnthing 17:11, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
We do have an article, even on this: Finger (gesture). Rmhermen 19:36, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
For a Presidential one, see One-fingered Victory Salute VideoEdison 20:17, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Diva, Sixth Sense?

Please tell me the name of the person who played the Diva in Sixth Sense, and was that her true voice? Thanks. Signed, A Fan

Do you mean The Fifth Element? See the credits. If it's The Fifth Element you are referring to, her voice was obviously digitally manipulated at times, as no one can sing that range of notes.--Shantavira 15:12, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I think I remember reading somewhere that it was actually a real voice, not digitally enhanced, but I don't have any source for that. --WhiteDragon 15:39, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Allegedly Inva Mula ( but the language in the article looks like it wasn't written by a native English speaker, and seriously needs cleanup). 惑乱 分からん 15:16, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Also, the actor who played the Diva (Maïwenn Le Besco) isn't the same the same who did the vocals. If you're really interested I would rent the special edition DVD. The article on the The Fifth Element is rather lacking in authority. —Mitaphane talk 06:43, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks All. Yes, I did mean The Fifth Element. I guess I'll take the 'rent the DVD special Ed., credits, and go from there. 12 October 2006 (A Fan)

[edit] Manga questions

1. If you want to become a manga-ka when you grow up,is it alright if you copy another artist drawing style?Thanks

(Ahhh, it's you again. Could you refrain from posting many different posts this time. Please reply to the post you have already posted as far as possible, and sign your posts with four tildes.) You probably could copy a lot of it, before you're accused of plagiarization. Also, styles and themes generally cannot be copyrighted in themselves, unlike characters and names. You probably would be accused of being a copycat, but it's up to you if you'd let that bother you. Some cartoonists, such as Joost Swarte, Yves Chaland, Wallace Wood etc. could do nice personal pastiches of their predecessors' styles, though. 惑乱 分からん 15:14, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

2. Is there a manga school in Chiyoda,Tokyo that has a specialized manga course?I heard that Takao Aoki went there and i wanna draw just like him. Please answer me thanks for your time!

You wouldn't necessarily get to draw exactly like Takao Aoki just because you attend the same school he attended. Second, personally I think you should try to find more of your own style from your sources of inspiration. Usually, a copy only turns out to be a second-rate version of the original. 惑乱 分からん 15:14, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
There are an uncountable number of manga/animation/illustration schools in every ward in Tokyo.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  16:43, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Loud Harleys

Why are certain motorcycles, such as harley Davidson's Davidsons, so loud? Jamesino 15:26, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

If you ask the owner/rider of one, the answer usually is "Because loud pipes save lives." Meaning, motorcycles are harder to spot than automobiles as they are smaller, so by making a lot of noise, it will alert automobile drivers in the area that there's a motorcycle around, and so be on the lookout for it.
In truth, though, most people who enjoy riding their Harley probably just like making lots of noise. It's all part of the enjoyment of riding for them. 192.168.1.1 8:58, 7 Rocktober 2006 (PST)
Harley-Davidson actually tried to trademark their "trademark" sound. Rmhermen 16:15, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Most of the noise comes from aftermarket exhaust pipes. Even if someone has OEM pipes they usually punch out the baffling. It's partly that Harley mystique and partly a safety issue: as a former Harley owner I can affirm that too many automobile drivers put the brain on energy saver mode and simply don't notice motorcycles on the road. Sooner or later most motorcyclists have a collision with a car and the car invariably wins. If other drivers at least hear the motorcycle there's a better chance they won't make a left turn/change lanes/pull out of a driveway at the worst possible moment. Durova 05:15, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
So the rest of us have to listen to that racket because motorcyclists like to shift the blame to car drivers? You don't hear bicyclists causing noise polution like that, do you? Motorcyclists ride like maniacs, weaving in and out of traffic. Hardly surprising if they get hit. Natutral selection and all that. --Nelson Ricardo 04:16, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
That's a bit of a stereotype. Actually anyone who still rides after age 30 is generally very conservative about their road skills. They've either been through a major accident or seen a friend die. I nearly got hit many times by inattentive drivers - the closest call was when an SUV left turned me in rush hour traffic. I managed to avoid major injury, but my rear view mirror got damaged, my glove brushed against the other vehicle, and four knuckles got bruised: one more inch and my hand would have been crushed. My own pipes were OEM with the baffling already knocked out before I bought the bike. Every experienced rider I knew said I should have chosen aftermarket pipes, and - having been on both sides of this debate at different times in my life - I came to value the use of both hands. I also tried to save the life a rider who died when a Cadillac performed an illegal U-turn. Durova 14:36, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-Terrorist Options on Aeroplanes.

Given the current high-level of terrorist awareness on aeroplanes (and I am sure I am not the first to have had this idea) why can't the flight deck crew be kept secure in front of their bomb-proof cockpit bulkhead and door, and be supplied with a system that would enable them to see and hear on CCTV, any threatening behaviour in the main passenger cabin, and then simply remotely discharge a nerve gas via the air conditioning system that would instantly and momentarily disable the troublemakers (and passengers and crew of course), so that a flight deck member could then go to the rear cabins and identify and handcuff the perpetrators, whilst wearing breathing apparatus? And anyone who objected to that scenario is either a potential terrorist or someone who would prefer to travel by boat/train/donkey.

You are proposing gassing hundreds of innocent people to prevent a possible threat based on the appraisal of someone who had ought be to be busy flying a large complex aircraft? Also remember what happened when the Russians gassed a theatre full of hostages and hostage-takers? (Moscow theater hostage crisis) Rmhermen 16:12, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
They're not innocent, they're "unlawful combatants". JIP | Talk 16:21, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Not needed. Crew need training in matial arts, thats all! Finito!--Light current 16:36, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
What an interesting plan. So you're arguing that the elderly, the young, and those with any cardio-vascular issues should sign a waiver agreeing that, in the event of terrorists trying to take over the plane, they're happy to be killed by the flight crew in order to stop them? --Mnemeson 16:40, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
There is no safe nerve gas, if that's what you are thinking. Even if there were, the prospect would raise all sorts of other objections, like how 300 drugged people could safely exit an aircraft.--Shantavira 17:02, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
They could fly! (Or probably think they could) No problemo 8-)--Light current 17:05, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Would it not just be easyer to do what the Israelis have done since the St Davids field incident and have agents on the planes with  :low velosity guns , tasers and battons.
Making the flight deck doors and walls bullet proof is so obvious it hurts, but I just wonder that this has not been done due to :profit worries; referance the work needed and the extra lugage weight.
The feds don't have the nerve? Clarityfiend 20:35, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Having asked the original question - which I freely admit was a troll (trawl), I now thank Most of all the above respondents and surrender to Hezbullah, Al Quaida, Islam, Allah, etc, and look forward to an ex-Christian's eternity in Paradise devoid of any camels or virgins (for me) as they will all be being ridden (sic) by those that were protected by my respondent friends (and their ilk) - above. Will the last person allowed to use Wikipedia before being shot in the back of the skull in praise of Muhammed(pbuh) please turn out the lights. p.s. Can someone tell me somewhere near Reykjavik where I can buy my wife a Burkha?

Completely isolating the cockpit crew would require that they have a bathroom and food supply.

Sleeping gas might actually work much better in such an environment, because it could be evenly distributed. The problem in the Russian theater is that there was no way to evenly distribute it, and it was necessary that all the terrorists be sedated, meaning they had to use so much that those who got the highest doses would die. StuRat 02:11, 8 October 2006

Yes, but that doesn't alter the fact that different people react differently to the same dose of drug. If they used something like aerosolized fentanyl, like in the Moscow seige, a concentration that is just enough to remind a former heroin addict a pleasant reminder of their old habit would be enough to kill an elderly nun. --Robert Merkel

Perhaps depressurize the cockpit enough that passengers use the oxygen masks which drop down, and selectively supply fentenyl to the masks used by the bad guys.Edison 19:18, 9 October 2006 (UTC)*

  • Let loose specially trained snakes who only bite terrorists?(hotclaws**== 19:59, 12 October 2006 (UTC))
This is as sensible as most of the suggestions that have been made here.
Seriously, the key difference between now and September 10, 2001 with regards to hijackings is that passengers are prepared to risk their own lives to take down hijackers. Every other airline security measure is either targetted at bombs (a separate issue) or is just window-dressing.
If you want good discussions on these topics, I recommend having a look around Bruce Schneier's blog. --Robert Merkel 01:16, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adding a photo to an existing file

Hi, I am trying to add a photo to an existing file.. Emmanuel Christopher Loblack

I done quite a bit of searching and have come up empty handed.

Could you please direct me to the information that where I could follow the instructions to upload a photo.

Thank you.

See Wikipedia:Uploading images. In future, please ask questions about how to edit Wikipedia at the Wikipedia:Help desk. Thanks.--Shantavira 18:21, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alternatives to Cetaphil?

Hi - I was wondering what products commonly in UK are similar to Cetaphil? Having just moved here I'm a bit bewildered by the variety available. Thanks. --Keira Vaughn 18:09, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Best bet is to go into "Boots" or similar shop/boutique and ask a memeber of staff. As you said there is a wide range so its personal choice really, just depends on your alergies/skin condition/taste. HTH

P.S.Your name sounds very English, may we be permitted to know where you have moved from?
AMX

If you click on her name you'll find out right away.--Shantavira 19:19, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Why not just order some Cetaphil online? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 22:41, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

It's just a little troublesome ordering online - but I'll ask around and see. Thanks for your suggestions! --Keira Vaughn 00:23, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why is volume so high?

On many stereos and televisions, the volume knob goes up so high that it would inevitably deafen a person. Why is this? Thanks! Reywas92Talk 20:23, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Users of this Disaster Area-like volume level include a) my dad and b) public places like bars. What seems loud in your small, quiet living room won't in a big, noisy space. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 20:30, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
What? Did you say something? Clarityfiend 20:34, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
It's for people who are already deaf, like my parents who keep the volume on max and turn on the subtitles.--Shantavira 08:35, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I find it's easier to watch TV and listen to the radio at the same time when they are both at very high volumes, instead of having them at the same medium level.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  09:45, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Behind the scenes of Survivor

Does anyone know a good website that tells about the behind the scenes of Survivor? My family has always been wondering this. Thanks! Reywas92Talk 20:30, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Just a guess, but CBS.com might. It would probably be hard for anybody other than the creators of the show to make what you're looking for, and if they did it'd probably be on their site, maybe somewhere else. I do know there's a special on TV Guide Channel before the season starts. Temp

True Dork Times maintains a collection of spoilers, and they provide links to all of the sources. Survivor Sucks gets a lot of tips too. --Maxamegalon2000 23:45, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survivor

Is it possible to sue the makers of Survivor for racial discrimination, since they essentially automatically declined all contestant applications by any applicant who wasn't black, white, hispanic, or asian. --209.122.217.168 21:37, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Not if people agree to be racially discrimated, I guess Temp

  • I'm sure they have an artistic license of sorts that allows them to do so. It's along the same lines of denying someone to play the Queen in a play because the actor is a 'he'. Hyenaste (tell) 22:51, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
It's my understanding that the contestants for Survivor: Cook Islands were chosen before it was decided to divide the tribes by race. If this is true, then it follows that applicants who didn't fit in the four tribes weren't selected for reasons other than race. I wonder just how many applicants they actually get that aren't in those four groups; over all thirteen seasons, minorities are consistently overrepresented as a representation of the applicant pool. --Maxamegalon2000 23:41, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I find this a little difficult to believe. Previous seasons are well-noted for having small numbers of minorities; Guatemala, for instance, had (if memory serves) 17 white people and one Hispanic. I think Panama had two African-Americans, one Asian American and 13 Caucasians. To my quick and rough count, the first six seasons combined had fewer minorities than this current single season. If minorities are consistently overrepresented in the applicant pool, they sure as hell aren't making it on the actual show. Furthermore, I've read reports that many of the contestants were recruited for this season; that makes it particularly difficult to believe that they went out and found extra minorities, way more than ever before, and still picked this contestant pool without race as a factor. Personally, I would have done a Survivor with four tribes made up of people from the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines. --ByeByeBaby 04:27, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
It would only be possible to sue if you actually tried out for the show and don't fall into any of those categories, but your chances of having your suit taken serious are minimal. User:Zoe|(talk) 02:16, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

If they declined all applications by someone who wasn't 'black,white,Hispanic or Asian' there don't seem to be many people left who could appear... Lemon martini 10:09, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

See multiracial. (Or Michael Jackson...) 惑乱 分からん 11:39, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name this song & artist

I'm trying to remember the artist in this song. It has a male singer during the chorus singing in a somewhat high-pitched voice to start something along the lines of "hold me close love, its all me, its all me... gotta ask yourself one question, where are you now?"... Croat Canuck Go Leafs Go 21:49, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Dunno about anyone else, but I've tried about every permutation of search I could track down on this, and struck out. Closest I could come was a David Essex song, lyrics here. Tony Fox (arf!) 03:23, 8 October 2006 (UTC)


I think that James Blunt sings it.Not sure if he wrote it,but I know that he sings it on one of his albums.There have been quite a few ads with that song on it.Serenaacw 12:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Additional info:The lyrics are from a James Blunt song "Wisemen".For the lyrics,see here:http://www.songmeanings.net/lyric.php?lid=3530822107858543370%20target=


Serenaacw 12:30, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Help making friends

How do you make friends with someone if you already accidentally punched them in the jaw, broke their ribs, and put them in a coma? --209.122.217.165 22:18, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Is it possible to do that "accidentally?" -- TheGreatLlama (speak to the Llama!)</sup> 22:41, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Mistaken identity maybe? Hyenaste (tell) 22:54, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Once your relationship becomes that serious, it is difficult to change the direction. You can't love someone one day and beat them up the next, or vice versa, without some serious emotional issues occuring. Hyenaste (tell) 22:54, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
But the man still has my copy of "The Godfather".--209.122.217.165 22:55, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Tell her that you only hit her because you love her? --Kurt Shaped Box 23:24, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I know this place is somewhat not very serious, but that's not funny. Abuse is never something to joke about, in my view. ++Lar: t/c 06:48, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Sorry if I offended you. I do have the tendency to find gallows humour in most situations. Except abortion - I've never been able to think of anything blackly humorous to say about abortion. --Kurt Shaped Box 22:17, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Believe it or not, there are a whole category of jokes called dead baby jokes --WhiteDragon 15:46, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Got any good ones? ;) --Kurt Shaped Box 01:50, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I have several faves, but I don't want to offend anybody. Check here. Anchoress 01:58, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I dont think the person is very receptable to socialising approaches while being in a coma. Joneleth 10:23, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Suicide seems like a good option at this point. Temp

[edit] Cleaning up apartment

I have two roommates, and nomatter how hard we barely try, we can't arrange a system that keeps the apartment clean. Please help? --216.164.197.56 22:39, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Before a solution can be found, you need to figure out why the housework isn't being done. It could be any or all of the following:
  1. What constitutes 'clean' differs from person to person in the group;
  2. Some members think they're doing their fair share, while others disagree;
  3. Some members don't know how to clean;
  4. The members being organised to clean resent the organiser(s) of cleaning duties;
  5. Everyone is just too busy;
  6. There's a guilt/blame or parent/child dynamic;
  7. People are being messy out of passive-aggression (to express dissatisfaction over some other element of the relationship);
  8. Some members are just lazy;
  9. Some members are hoping their parents/significant others will eventually do it (at Christmas, maybe);
  10. Or who knows what else.
If everyone truly and freely agrees that your place isn't as clean as it should be, and you've already tried dividing chores, rotating chores, 'cleanup day's etc, and those didn't work, then I suggest you pool your resources and hire a cleaner for a couple of months. Then evaluate: was it worth the money? If so, keep doing it. If not, maybe it'll make it easier to keep up. Or maybe some members will want to keep paying someone to clean, in which case they can either pay the members who don't mind cleaning, or the cleaners can keep coming and just do fewer chores.Anchoress 22:56, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Have a system whereby everyone does their bit of cleaning at the same time, and impose a charge (say $5) on anyone who forces the group to move to a different time from the scheduled one. It's much more fun to be working together, rather than one person working while everyone else watches. No-one feels put upon because they're the only one working, and malingerers can't hide. And at the end of the process you have a lovely clean apartment (rather than a dirty apartment with just one part clean). -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 00:12, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Anchoress's suggestion about a cleaner, if you're willing to go that far. In some circumstances you just simply can't expect everybody to act clean enough to keep everyone happy, and it will always get on someone's nerves. It is much easier to keep a clean house clean than it is a dirty one, so starting fresh is a good idea.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  04:29, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Didn't we answer this question two weeks ago? Durova 05:40, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes (or similar) FAQ!!--Light current 09:21, 8 October 2006 (UTC)