Wikipedia:Reference desk archive/Language/2006 September 1

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[edit] hindi/silver

i want the language in hindi about silver so i request you to show me the (Could anyone help me find some information in Hindi about silver? Thankyou.) - copyedit by  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ 

If you mean an article on silver in the Hindi Wikipedia, unfortunately it seems such an article has not yet been written. --LambiamTalk 03:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps they just want to know the Hindi word for "silver". In that case, there could be different words for the element and the color. StuRat 03:46, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
According to whois the question comes from India (IP provider Videsh Sanchar Nigam Ltd), so in that case the questioner would more likely just have asked around. --LambiamTalk 08:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
They may not speak Hindi is his part of India, however. StuRat 22:26, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Though I must assume that they do, or at least he does, because that's the language that he appears to want his information in. O o;;  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  08:55, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Why can't somebody want to know a word in a language which is used in an area other than where they live ? StuRat 04:49, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
a) I find it hard to interpret "the language in Hindi about silver" in a way that has him looking only for the single world translation. b) Though I'll admit it's not impossible, I don't think he would be asking for a 1 word translation on the language desk.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  10:36, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
"Language" is probably a bad translation for "texts" or "material", and "the" for "that", which is a common mistake for native speakers of languages without a definite article. (e.g. Where is the cow? is often translated as something like "Where is [that previously mentioned] cow?)  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  13:42, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Literal translation of Silver in Hindi is "chandi". Silver colour is "chandi ka rang" ("rang" means colour)--Tachs 11:44, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] trainor and accreditor

is there such a word as trainor? here in the philippines, the word is in widespread use. same goes with the word "accreditor." however, i can't find them in any dictionary. please answer. thanks.

carl richard

It seems to be a word in Philippine English. In standard English it's commonly spelled 'trainer'. The Philippine Department of Tourism defines it as an individual who conducts training programs. ---Sluzzelin 05:21, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
...the agent noun suffix -er being replaced by -or, like actor, doctor, sailor, tailor, etc. Seeing it's from the Philippines, I wonder if it's from Spanish influence? (matador, etc.) -- the GREAT Gavini 06:48, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
The -er and -or endings often seems to be used for no particular reason in English, train is of Franco-Latin origin (although with this particular meaning originated in English), motivator is of Latin origin, in common speech the distinction gets difficult to discern, it isn't difficult to see how the endings could get mixed up. 惑乱 分からん 12:37, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Usage of "of all of these"

The phrase "of all of these" is used in the manner given in the following paragraph.

Significantly, Fe deficiency in humans can be due to causes other than Fe-deficient soils and low-Fe food crops. It can also be caused by Zn, vitamin A, Se, folate, or vitamin B12 deficiencies, as well as by certain gut bacteria, intestinal worms, and other human parasites and pathogens. But of all of these, Zn deficiency is the most widespread problem.

Please suggest the correct usage of the above-mentioned phrase.

Thanks.

Regards Taiyab

Don't begin a sentence with But, that's for sure. Teachers hate that. Usage seems fine to me. AEuSoes1 07:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
And you're just going to let teachers push you around? --Ptcamn 07:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
"out of all (of) these" sounds more natural to me, but "of all of these" is still acceptable. --Ptcamn 07:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
What about just of these? -- the GREAT Gavini 07:42, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Just to confuse matters further, I would go for "of all these". --Richardrj talk email 07:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I hate to be pushed around by language prescriptionists and don't think beginning a sentence with But is bad. But in this case, it serves no purpose. The suggestion by the GREAT Gavini sounds best to me, and also comes out with the top score in google hits. I'd further say "common cause" for "widespread problem". The last two sentences would then go: "It can also be caused by Zn, vitamin A, ..., intestinal worms, and other human parasites and pathogens. Of these, Zn deficiency is the most common cause."  --LambiamTalk 08:04, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Not to butt in, but if you leave the "But" in, I'd put a comma after it. StuRat 11:38, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

It's perfectly fine to start a sentence with "but" (or "and")...the problem is when it is just a fragment that should have been connected to the previous sentence. Adam Bishop 14:53, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. Lazy teachers, especially in primary school, proscribe it in all situations, rather than clarify the conditions under which it is acceptable. The situation is similar to the irrational proscription of passive voice, which, as far as some English teachers are concerned, ought to be completely purged from the language. Bhumiya (said/done) 21:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jokes in other languages

Do English language jokes work in other languages? Would something like "Two cows in a field, one says 'Have you heard about mad cow disease?', the other says 'Doesn't bother me, I'm a duck'" work in anything other than English?

doktorb wordsdeeds 11:37, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

That joke should work, as long as it's actually called "mad cow disease" in the language in question. If you called it "bovine spongiform encephalitis", the joke would be more difficult to figure out. However, jokes using double meanings of English words aren't likely to work, like this one:
"A kid swallowed a silver dollar and was taken to the hospital, where he was to be left for observation until the coin passed. When his parents inquired as to his status, the doctor replied 'no change yet'."
This joke requires that "change" mean both "difference in status" and "coins returned after an overpayment is made". It's unlikely that a word exists in other languages which possesses that double meaning. StuRat 11:47, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
If the jokes are primarily puns, often not. Sometimes, they would work if the language is closely related to English, or if it has calqued many popular idioms. Puns and poetry always make deliberate usage of a language's peculiarities, and are generally much harder to translate than prose, where words generally are used only for their meaning. 惑乱 分からん 12:32, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Obvious, "classically funny" jokes can often be translated easily, but people of different cultures often have a different idea of what is funny, even to the effect that in some (I would assume less western) parts of the world, "sarcasm" doesn't work at all. Disgusting humor doesn't work at all in Japanese, and a lot of Japanese humor relies on raising and lowering the volume of your voice, getting angry or acting timid, and using and mis-using all the formal levels of conversation, all of which are extremely difficult to translate into English, and are almost never "funny". I can't imagine anybody laughing in the English world at a gyagu (gag) where the guy just goes, "Rock, paper," and then screams "SCISSORS!!!" at the top of is lungs.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  13:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Are you certain that "disgusting jokes" aren't popular in Japan. Since Japan seems to be a culture much based on clean appearance, I think disgusting jokes used for shock effect would be popular. Anyway, I know potty humor often is popular in children's manga, for instance. You might be correct about sarcasm, though. About that Japanese joke, then, I might laugh at that, though, mostly because of its strangeness. 惑乱 分からん 16:05, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Well yes, you're right, I guess I have to explain that a bit better. Dirty jokes (shimoneta) do have a place in Japanese, but I find most black English humour doesn't work. A typical dirty joke in Japanese uses a lot of punnery, and it's really just "masked" filth, and a lot of "Oooh! I said a bad word!" kind of stuff. Popular Hollywood teen movies that have a lot of sex jokes don't seem to be too popular either, though that might be the fault of the translators.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  08:53, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
OK, alright. There probably is a place for black humor in Japan, too, (My impression is that it would often be absurd or surreal...) but maybe not so much in mainstream media. 惑乱 分からん 12:08, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Here's a Dutch joke in English (it's originally in English!):
An Englishman and a Groninger are having a conversation and the Englishman asks "What do you do for a living?" "I fok horses" "Pardon?" "Ja, paorden!"
Of course this requires a little explanation. The guy is a horsebreeder from Groningen. 'Horsebreeding' is in Dutch called 'paardenfokken' and in Groningen they pronounce 'paarden' as 'paorden', which, you guessed, sounds like the English 'pardon'. DirkvdM 17:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
That's an example of a cross language joke which actually requires a knowledge of two languages. They tend to be better when heard live than in writing, as spelling typically clarifies the ambiguity between the languages. Here's another:
The policeman asked the German immigrant farmer if he had been arrested eight times for having sex with sheep. The German looked offended and yelled "Nein !". StuRat 22:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
These are actually examples of bilingual puns, where the listener is required to be more or less familiar with two different languages to get the punchline. 惑乱 分からん 11:44, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

There's an old Mae West line that's become a perennial: "Is that a gun in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?" Culturally that kind of sexual humor might not be acceptable everywhere, but the line itself seems to translate pretty well because the comparison is universal and the reference requires a visual imagination. Durova 19:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I would like to share with you a joke that does not work in translated form. English is the original in this case, and the other language is Swedish. I'm sure you know it, it's about those tomatoes that crosses the street – one gets run over and the other one exclaims "Catch up!". In Swedish, it's not possible to construct the same word play. Instead, the exclamation reads "Come on ketchup, let's move!". See there, the joke is completely lost, but it's still told as a joke, which is completely beyond me. There must be a meta joke somewhere that I haven't found. Does anyone, by any chance, know the reason for being behind this non-joke? —Bromskloss 20:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Since it's mostly told as an example of a bad joke or non-joke, it's probably merely because of its absurdity... =S 惑乱 分からん 21:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Wow, I know that same "joke" in German, and I must admit that I laughed at it when I was a kid, even though I only really understand it now. In German, the punchline is simply "Ketchup!", and since the tomato was run over, that was funny enough for me. But there's an actual pun in there! My mind, she is blown. Rueckk 00:18, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Sometimes it depends on the language. The classic Abbott and Costello routine "Who's on First?" translates well to Spanish. But it wouldn't work well in Czech (even if they used soccer instead of baseball), because the case endings are different for question words like "who" than they are for names. -- Mwalcoff 22:09, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The mad cow disease joke works well in Arabic. It could be translated as "crazy cow" (jnoun el-baqar). CG 09:09, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that example actually works well in many languages, since "mad cow disease" is a word very prone to be calqued. It works in Swedish, too, for example. 惑乱 分からん 11:44, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
And it's "vache fou" in French, I think. Adam Bishop 13:52, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
"vache folle", "maladie de la vache folle", it even seems to have been calqued into (intended) auxiliary languages such as Esperanto and Interlingua, ("malsano de freneza bovino" and "maladia del vacca folle", respectively) which should give a hint about how common the calque is. 惑乱 分からん 14:27, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Also the same in Dutch; 'gekke koeien ziekte'. DirkvdM 06:03, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
When I was backpacking, I always enjoyed exchanging tongue twisters with people. They may not translate well, but they're a great ice-breaker. And even if people don't have any language in common, if one person recites a tongue twister, other people get it and recite their own. It's a very very fun way to pass the time in backpackers' hostels. Anchoress 15:21, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
In a way, tongue twisters are much more communicable than jokes. To a certain degree, your mouth will be more accustomed to your native alphabet, so a tongue twister in your native language should be easier. But since they are designed to be difficult for native speakers, it's not rare that foreigners are able to pronounce certain tongue twister better than native speakers! On the other hand, some things like "kōkyōkōkokukikō" are difficult no matter where you come from.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  10:32, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Or 'Plaza de la Revolucion'. DirkvdM 06:03, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
No, that's easy. Swedish 'kvistfritt kvastskaft' on the other hand... 惑乱 分からん 14:18, 4 September 2006 (UTC)


It depends on the joke and the translations, but I would say for the most part, jokes are exclusive to the language they came from -- generally. --Proficient 18:06, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Translation from Roma language

Here are the lyrics of one beautiful Roma (gypsy) song from the movie "Time of the Gypsies". Could somebody translate it into English?

Alo mange liloro - Edelezi Avela

Pravdiloda daye bre jek kalo sabata. x2 Alo mange liloro, me ki vojska te dzav. x2

Uke kotar daye bre jekh kalo pampuri. x2 Amaneti daye, te mishta menaya.

Ederlezi avela, me khere na sijom. x2 ala loko nashti ljam me dayatar me dade. x2

Ma rov daye gudlije, pale ka avav mange. x2 Ederlezi ka avel, meda kere ka avav. x2

Thanks!

J. Ugeor

Google is your friend. Here's something I picked up from top hits on google:
My own* mother (daye)
Black (kalo) day has come.
Now it's time for me (mange) **
to go to the army (vojska).

Mother, black (kalo) man came
And took away your son.
I leave my son*** to you
Take care for him strongly.

And on St. George's Day (Ederlezi)
I will not be at home
…

Then (last 6 lines) the matter concerns: father (dade), sweet, goody (gudlije) and again St. George's Day (Ederlezi), that (and something else) should come  (avel, avav).

______________
* Word ‘bre’ means bosom, breast and strengthens word ‘daye’ (mother).
** ‘Liloro’ means small paper, letter, document. So accurate meaning ‘Alo mange liloro’ may be ‘I received letter (call-up papers, summons to army)’
*** I’m not sure about son. May be fiancée (girl-friend)?

Its not complete, but should prove a good start. Shinhan 12:28, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How to refer to unwed other parent of child

If I and another person to whom I am not married are the parents of a child, then what is the name of my relationship with the other parent? She is my ___________. (Other than "the mother of my child.") I need a gender-neutral term if at all possible. This came up at work when we have the names of all sorts of relatives for emergency contacts, this case being by far the most common use of the "other" option. Someone suggested "coparent" but that isn't in the Merriam-Webster dictionary, and the answers.com dictionary defines it only in relation to divorce. I can't believe the English language doesn't have a word for this. HQW2 18:56, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

How about "partner"? There is also "babymama" or "babydaddy" but I don't suppose you should put that on an official form. Adam Bishop 20:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
If the context is always the parent's of a child, how about "Child's other parent"? And if it's too awkward to come up with something on the form to use, what's wrong with still having the other box. That's seems to be a perfectly good reason to have it and use it. - Taxman Talk 20:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
In the context of your question, it doesn't seem to make any difference whether you and the child's mother are married or not. There is still the same lexical gap with a married couple. --Richardrj talk email 20:50, 1 September 2006 (UTC)


"Partner" assumes they are still together as a long-term couple. A lot of people would also use "girlfriend/boyfriend", but it's a "younger" feeling word.--Sonjaaa 23:45, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

'Common law husband/wife'? —Daniel (‽) 18:17, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

This has been a problem for me in the past too. I have four children, and three partners. Occasionally when relating some family matter to someone at my work, it is tricky. If I am speaking about specifically, something like "My partner, 'Story'", or "[child name]'s Mom. It is tricky in situations where suggesting that you have an alternative family is not possible, and I have resorted to "My Wife", when that isn't strictly the case, but it is understandable to the audience, and complete accuracy isn't important. One time, for some legal reason, a clerk asked me about one of my partners, and wanted to know the relationship, and I gave her a general answer, and she pushed for the specific relationship. I couldn't say "wife" or "spouse", and so I said, "She is the mother of two of my children". I suppose if the culture were more flexible, as well as more tolerant, one could say "one of my partners." The problem with "partner" though is that some people, from movies and such, have gotten the idea that "partner" is a euphemism for "same sex lover", or think that you may be gay. I have no problem with that, except that it isn't accurate, and social judgment from them thinking that could be equally problematic in a work environment. I used to use "spouse" thinking that it was a biological term, but in fact found that it is well defined legally to basically mean "wife". If I were married to all three of my partners, I could just say "wife" and not feel funny about it, but that isn't legal in this culture. And again sometimes it is necessary in talking about one partner versus another, and I couldn't say, for instance, my wife, versus my concubine. In summary, using "my partner, [her name]", or "My wife" is what have ended up using most frequently. Atom 12:35, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Atom, my only question is, how do you find time to be involved in Wikipedia? JackofOz 13:44, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] word definition

When people of different races interbreed for many generations, the decendants will all share (mostly) the same physical characteristics, such as color, or etc. There is a word that describes this process. What is the word.19:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)4.158.156.86

Miscegenation? --Richardrj talk email 20:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
What's wrong with just plain old "interbreeding". StuRat 22:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
In plant breeding I always heard it referred to simply as 'stabilisation', although I have a feeling this was just an ad hoc term and there's a proper word.
The opposite is known as a throwback, ie when a cross with very disimilar individuals in its recent ancestry bears little resemblance to its more immediate ancestors (a frequent cause of unfounded suspicions of infidelity in mixed race communities I believe). Rentwa 22:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Homogenization?AEuSoes1 23:04, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the correct word. Buz W

There is no such word because there is just one human race. Well, ok, that doesn\t sop people from coming up with such a word - I just wanted t point this out. :) DirkvdM 03:44, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Term for music project manager?

If I hire a composer to compose some music based on some themes and vision I have, then I get some other people I know to perform it, and get it recorded somewhere and make a CD to share my vision to others..... then what is my title? I was only the vision and the project manager, but did not do any of the music myself at the detail level, just at the idea level. Am I the "producer" or something? Or is there a word that describes exactly this job or role?--Sonjaaa 23:43, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

In the United States' Media and Entertainment industry, the term "producer" is commonly used to refer to those responsible for coordinating the various contributors to a final piece. Some prefer to use the term "associate producer" for those who play only a coordinating role, reserving the unqualified "producer" for those who also contribute a vision or some high-level creative direction. You seem to fulfill both roles, so you should be very comfortable describing yourself as a producer. dpotter 03:18, 2 September 2006 (UTC)