Wikipedia:Reference desk archive/Language/2006 September 10

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[edit] September 10

[edit] A small language in Armenia, related to Babylonia

Hello,

someone just told me he spoke to an Armenian. He said his parents were from Armenia, but that he was born in Moscow and went to school in Russian. However, they moved to Belgium, resulting in him being fluent in Dutch (and he took some English and French classes). But he also spoke of a not well known language in Armenia, or the region surrounding it, which is related to the ancient Babylonia?

Does anyone have any idea what language that could be? (not all the information is 100% correct I'm afraid, because the person telling me this also confused the Turks and Russians when it came to the Armenian genocide)

(Well, I wish everyone in Belgium was that eager to learn new languages..)


Thank you!

Evilbu 00:25, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

For questions like this try Ethnologue MeltBanana 01:16, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
The Babylonians spoke Akkadian, a Semitic language. Ethnologue says the only Semitic language spoken by Armenian natives is Assyrian Neo-Aramaic, which had 3,000 speakers in the country in 1999. That could be it. -- Mwalcoff 02:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Various languages were spoken in Babylonia during various periods of its history, and in various social contexts. During its later history, Aramaic was the administrative language of the empire and a widely-spoken lingua franca. It eventually took over everywhere, until it was replaced by Arabic after the Muslim conquest. During the early days, and in Babylonia proper, Akkadian was spoken, though it eventually lost out to Aramaic even in its heartland. Both of these are Semitic languages, and I don't think a Semitic language ever penetrated as far north as the Caucasus. However, Sumerian and Elamite were also spoken in the same general area, and I seem to recall a Georgian linguist recently proposing that Georgian was related to either Elamite or Sumerian. In either case, the only reason it can't be rejected out of hand is the fact that Elamite and Sumerian are difficult to classify. Caucasian linguists do seem to enjoy linking their languages with far-flung language isolates: Basque, for instance. This acquaintance of yours might have learned some version of the Georgian-Elamite/Sumerian theory and confused Georgian with Armenian. But keep in mind that Armenian is an Indo-European language, so its lineage is fairly certain, as opposed to Georgian. There is no record of an Indo-European language ever being spoken in Babylonia, unless you count the minor incursions of Greek and Roman. On edit: I just saw Mwalcoff's comment. That seems the most likely explanation by far. Bhumiya (said/done) 02:30, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Barg in on someone

Hello! I've searched several online dictionaries, but I simply can't find one that would explain the phrase 'barg in on someone'. Where should I look anyway - 'normal' dictionaries, idioms dictionaries...? Thank you! --Missmarple 07:30, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Not barge, perchance? -- the GREAT Gavini 07:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Wiktionary:barge, under the "verb" section.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  08:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
That's it - thanks to you both :) --Missmarple 08:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Another Miss Marple mystery solved! DirkvdM 05:51, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unknown language moved from Misc desk

"vol os shyl, ais ai tal's thaer, ai't byr toli, ai't byr vaer"

Now im not lookin for a translation of this, but i would like to know what langauge it is written in, could you please reply on my talk page if anyone knows.

Thanks, Childzy (Talk|Contribs) 20:27, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Can you tell us the context? Btw, this should better be posed at the "language" page. 惑乱 分からん 22:58, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Sounds a bit Germanic or Old English, but old English lacked a "V". Tried Online Etymology Dictionary http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=w&p=7 : Guessing Vol could be like German "Wollen" or English "will" (v.) O.E. *willan, wyllan "to wish, desire, want" , from P.Gmc. *welljan (cf. O.S. willian, O.N. vilja, O.Fris. willa, Du. willen, O.H.G. wellan, Ger. wollen, Goth. wiljan "to will, wish, desire," Goth. waljan "to choose"), from PIE *wel-/*wol- "be pleasing" (L. volo, velle "to wish, will, desire;" O.C.S. voljo, voliti "to will," veljo, veleti "to command;" ...Cf. also O.E. wel "well," lit. "according to one's wish;" ... Os sounds like "us:" O.E. us (cognate with O.S., O.Fris. us, O.N., Swed. oss), ... L. nos "we, us;" ... Du. ons, Ger. uns. Thaer sounds like "there:" O.E. þær "in or at that place," from P.Gmc. *thær (cf. O.S. thar, O.Fris. ther) Not Anglo Saxon. shyl makes me think of "Scyld" in Beowulf. vaer sounds like it might be related to "very" "verify:" very c.1250, verray "true, real, genuine," ...(cf. O.E. wær "a compact," O.Du., O.H.G. war, Du. waar, Ger. wahr "true;" Welsh gwyr, O.Ir. fir "true;" O.C.S. vera "faith"). Edison 01:06, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

ETA more guessing: "Ai" reminds me of "aye" or "yes" so the end could be "Aye, it be our 'toli,' Aye it be our truth" Edison 04:46, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
My first impression was that it looked like Yiddish or some English dialect like Scots, but I can't make heads or tails of it, so it could be a bad guess... =S (Btw, very and verify are loans from French/Latin.) 惑乱 分からん 01:25, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't recognize it, but xrce guesses Welsh. SWAdair 01:50, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Its definitely not Welsh (not the sort that I studied anyway!)--Light current 01:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Doesn't look much like it, it appears to be some sort of verse... Hmmm, is this a legitimate spelling, or is this a phonetic approximation you made yourself? 惑乱 分からん 01:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Isn't this on the wrong desk? I doubt it's Germanic. It looks like an obscure non-Welsh Brittonic language. -- the GREAT Gavini 08:22, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Not now!--Light current 09:12, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Not now? -- the GREAT Gavini 17:57, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
It looks like Icelandic to me. --LambiamTalk 09:14, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't look much like Icelandic... 惑乱 分からん 10:59, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I now think it is some fantasy language. I found this sentence on a website dedicated to role-playing games: "The book of Life (Si Shyl os Jhori) written by the Shyr Tandraer reveals more information to Mor’loki." Furthermore, "Shyl" seems to be a popular name for elves.  --LambiamTalk 09:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't appear to be any of the Tolkein languages, and that guy doesn't even use it consistantly on his website, so maybe it's less than a language and more a collection of phrases from unfinished fantasy conlang.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  14:09, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Wait, someone just asked us a question in Elvish? (shudder) Luigi30 (Taλk) 12:50, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I thought Elvish was dead.--Light current 12:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Here is another online identifier which guesses at Manx Finnish and Polish among others. MeltBanana 17:36, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Which (at least for Finnish and Polish) is clearly wrong, and mostly proves how bad AI is for language recognition... 惑乱 分からん 18:55, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, it's certainly not Finnish or Polish, or anything Slavic for that matter. But Manx or Cornish went through my mind too. That was after I initially thought Yiddish but was persuaded to reconsider. JackofOz 21:23, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I am not really sure, but I a, thinking either Gaelic or Celtic origin....it has been 20 years since I've seen either, but it reminds me heabily of those langauges--17:42, 13 September 2006 (UTC)~

[edit] sanquine

Dear friends,

I'm quite simply trying to find the definition of the word "Sanquine"
                                                      Larry
It's "sanguine", apparently meaning "optimistic" or "blood red", from the Latin word for blood (Etymology: Middle English sanguin, from Anglo-French, from Latin sanguineus, from sanguin-, sanguis). For queries like this, there are several good free English dictionaries online, such as http://www.dictionary.com , http://www.m-w.com etc, so you could check out for yourself next time you wonder about a word. 惑乱 分からん 12:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
And let's not forget Wiktionary! -Elmer Clark 06:26, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, Wiktionary cannot handle typoes, like "sanquine". 惑乱 分からん 14:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Or typos like "typoes" [1]

dpotter 22:52, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

So it's pluralized regularly??... I'll be damned! 惑乱 分からん 00:01, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Its roots stem back to a long-discredited medical theory that believed emotions were controlled by "humors" - or different liquids in the body. Other related adjectives include phlegmatic and bilious. Durova 02:15, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

here in Italy the red blood oranges of Sicily are called "sanguinella" there is even an orange soda with the same name... jonica 82.57.231.34 22:00, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] French : des/de negation(infinitives)

Hello

I am confused about negations in French :

"Je suis un professeur. Je ne suis pas un professeur."

"J'ai une voiture. Je n'ai pas de voiture."

Okay, so for negations, with a verb different from être: indefinite articles become "de".

But what to do here?

1. "Je ne veux pas manger de légumes." "Je ne veux pas manger des légumes."

2. "Il ne faut pas dire des choses comme ça." "Il ne faut pas dire de choses comme ça."

Random google check gave some contradicting answers

So I don't know what to do when there are auxiliary verbs and infinitives hanging around.

Thanks! Evilbu 16:38, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I have always assumed that nouns in plurals must have a "des" or "les" article, irregardless, thus "de choses" and "de légumes" are incorrect. Having said that, I must admit that my French is very rudimentary, and I might well be wrong... 惑乱 分からん 16:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I think de negates the object in general, while des refers to one which is definite. For instance, in your example 1, the first sentence means "I don't want to eat vegetables"; the second means "I don't want to eat the vegetables." By the way, your professeur sentences are incorrect: they should be Je suis professeur and Je ne suis pas professeur. -- the GREAT Gavini 19:12, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
In both 1 and 2, use des, which is in both cases indefinite. For the example with voiture, think of pas de as a standard combination meaning "no". Then there is another rule you must know: after de, you must omit a following du, de la or des. So *Je n'ai pas de des légumes becomes: Je n'ai pas de légumes. Des légumes = "vegetables"; pas de légumes = "no vegetables". Think of pas de as negating the existence of the following noun. So it is Je ne mange pas des légumes, because the negation here is not of the veggies, but of the eating. --LambiamTalk 20:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Having said that, the overwhelming majority of examples on French-language pages uses de for all cases, not des, as in: Je ne peux pas manger de fruits, de légumes ... and Il ne faut pas manger d’œufs après un vaccin.  --LambiamTalk 21:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Even my friends can't understand it, by I have a particular affection for Québecois French. I tend to love the most blue-collar, down-to-earth, difficult to comprehend dialects of languages, especial the joual version of Québecois French. So called "pure" or "proper" languages like "Parisian French" or "the Queen's English" bore me to death. Just give me some Cockney or some Glasweigian English and I'm fascinated.

Anyway, in case anyone's interested (which you probably aren't), I'd just like to try my best to translate at least a couple of the above phrases into joual. I'm not fluent in it, but I'll do my best:

"Proper" French: "Je suis professeur. Je ne suis pas professeur". "Joual": "Behn...m'way, shouie professeur, sti!. Behn! m'way, shouie poh professeur, sti!"

"J'ai une voiture. Je n'ai pas de voiture." = "M'way, j'men ai mon chaur, sti!. M'way, j'men ais poh'd chaur, maudit tabarnac!"

"I don't want to eat any vegetables" = "Sti tabarnac! J'veut poh d'legumes, sti!"

"You shouldn't say these things" = "Ta gueulle!!! Faut poh parler comme ça! Sti tabarwette!" Loomis 23:09, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Moé itou, j'aime ben le joual, sti ! ;-) --Chris S. 05:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks everyone, but what about "Il ne faut pas de dire choses comme ça"?Evilbu 00:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

impression from a non-native speaker: de choses-K.C. Tang 03:52, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] name of cities

I find that in your pages cities like Assab, Barentu and Ghindae are found in Eritrea. Is there any one who can tell me the meanings of these names and their origin?

Sorry that you have to keep asking this question without any decent answers, unfortunately Wikipedia's coverage of African topics is rather woeful. Here are some things I have found scrabbling about the web particularly google book search.
Barentu is named after the semi-legendary founder of the group of people.
"Oromo have several clans (gosa, qomoo). The Oromo are said to be of two major groups or moieties descended from the two 'houses' (wives) of the person Oromo represented by Borana and Barentu (Barenttuma). Borana was senior (angafa) and Barentu junior (qutisu)… The descendants of Borana and Barentu form the major Oromo clans and sub-clans. They include Borana, Macha, Tuuiiama, Wallo, Garrii, Gurraa, Arsi, Karrayyu, Itu, Ala, Qaiioo, Anniyya, Tummugga or Marawa, Orma, Akkichuu, Liban, Jile, Gofa, Sidamo, Sooddo, Galaan, Gujii and many others. However, in reality there is extensive overlap in the area they occupy and their community groups. And since marriage among Oromo occurs only between different clans there was high degree of homogeneity" ("The Oromo People and Oromia" 1998, 3).[2]
Asseb may be related to the Arabic word meaning "to bind" and suggest social cohesion. Could get nowhere with Ghinda or Ghinda'e, you would probably have to go to the place and ask them there. Place name etymology is confusing and difficult for even well studied places and different languages and people over many years can corrupt a name far beyond its original menaning. Sorry this is of little help. MeltBanana 21:52, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Might I suggest asking the Eritrean embassy in your home country? They probably have an email address. And if they do answer you, would you favor us by coming back here and updating the town pages with that information? User:Zoe|(talk) 16:55, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About an english phrase

What is meant by the phrase - Machiavellian conniver?

Warm regards, Capt Ajay A Sawarkar

It's a reference to Machiavelli. Have a read. JackofOz 23:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
A person who tries to get what he wants through subtle conspiracies against his rivals (originally in politics, now in business, etc, too). Jameswilson 23:51, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
It also implies great ruthlessness and efficiency, and has a sinister connotation. It is far from neutral. Bhumiya (said/done) 00:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
If you'd rather slip a yellow and black Cliff's Notes cover over your computer for a moment, Machiavelli is famous for a brutally frank treatise about politics: how to get power, how to keep it, and how to expand it - including such things as extinguishing the previous ruling family. In adjectival form it refers to someone who will stop at nothing to achieve a goal - you've quoted a very pejorative (although not vulgar) phrase. Durova 02:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Have you looked up the two words in a dictionary? In this case, the phrase adds no meaning in addition to the definition of the words. A participant or schemer in a wrongful plan or plot, characterized by expediency, deceit and cunning. dpotter 22:58, 13 September 2006 (UTC)