Wikipedia:Reference desk archive/Language/2006 August 26

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[edit] European countries etymological map?

What about some cool dude\dudette making one, like this page here? Hasbro 00:38, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

The names change depending on the language, so you'd have to choose which one to use. Compare these names for the same country: "Germany," "Deutschland," "Allemagne," "Teutonos." The reason it works for the U.S. is because the states basically keep the same name from language to language (and only changing words like "new"). The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 01:36, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
You forgot Tyskland, Saksa, Njemacka in that list, only to count a few common to several neighbouring languages! TERdON 17:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't work for the name of the U.S. which does change in different languages. Rmhermen 04:20, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
The US isn't a European country. :) It could be done for countries of Europe or indeed the world in English. Other language Wikipedias could then do it for their language. Most country articles will already have this info, so it's just a matter of collecting it on one page if you think there is a need for it. DirkvdM 07:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
For countries such as Germany and Hungary, where the native name is completely different than the English name, we could give two different etymologies. Sweden is some sort of back-formation from Old English Sweoðeod (the Suiones kingdom), with native Sverige being derived from Svearike (Suiones kingdom), however there already is a List_of_country_name_etymologies covering most of the info you're requesting. 惑乱 分からん 12:04, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm talking about the map, but of native name etymology. Hasbro 14:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Seriously, I think most of the European country names derive from old tribes. They're not "named", by definition, but instead getting names from common tribes, such as TribeX-land, TribeX-ia, TribeX-ground etc. Otherwise, I think they're mainly names derived from "areal aspects" (maybe there's a better word), such as Austria, Netherlands and Iceland. I guess a map like that would be difficult due to, A. uncertain etymology for many countries and B. some countries having a different etymology for their native and their English name. 惑乱 分からん 15:39, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I try to include all (or most) countries of Europe here, anyway, in case one would like to include the etymology within the paranthesis: (惑乱 分からん 16:08, 26 August 2006 (UTC))

What about List of country name etymologies? -- the GREAT Gavini 17:02, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Hasbro just said that he wanted a map, not merely a list. If there is a blank template image somewhere with the European borders marked, it shouldn't be too difficult to make one, oneself, though. 惑乱 分からん 17:37, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Bit odd how on the U.S. map state like New Mexico, or North and South Dakota are not listed as having English heritage in their names! Rmhermen 17:03, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I think that's too obvious to mention, personally I would only be distracted by such a listing. 惑乱 分からん 17:37, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

It's obvious with certain countries. France is Germanic. Iceland is Germanic. Ireland is Celtic. Britain is Celtic. Spain is Semitic. Portugal is Romance. Italy is Romance. Then again, by other traditions Britain may be Greek from Brutus of Troy, or Italy may be in fact Etruscan...etc, etc, etc. Hasbro 00:40, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Uhh, Ireland is Celtic/Germanic, by that criterion. Italy is possibly of Greek origin... What do you mean by "other traditions", are you referring to the names of the countries or the ethnicity/origin of its inhabitants? 惑乱 分からん 02:17, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I was saying that if the origins of the people who gave name to a land are different than what is generally thought of, then it might change the etymology. Then again, all European peoples are said to have come from the Caucasian mountain area. Either the pagan source in Troy etc, or the Christian source in Noah's Ark dictates it. When does one assert that a country or tribe name has been distinguished from general European tongue and diversified into its own branch? I assert that this is a real problem for an etymological map of Europe. Hasbro 13:52, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't completely follow your reasoning, but I believe most known tribe names in Europe appeared long after the PIE split into mutually incomprehensible branches. 惑乱 分からん 13:58, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] English Grammar Question

What is the difference between:

All [number] [plural noun]
All the [number] [plural noun]
All [number] of the [plural noun]
All the [number] of [plural noun]

Do they all mean the same thing? Are they all gramatically correct? Which form is more easily understood?

The second and fourth seem wrong - especially the fourth ("All the ten of cows went..."). Unless it was "All the ten of us..." Rmhermen 04:18, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
The second and fourth are awkward... I wouldn't call them wrong. The first and third actually have the same meaning because "all [number]" specifies exactly which "[plural noun]"s are being referred to. We had a similar discussion above, but "All horses eat red grass" and "All of the horses eat red grass" refer to different things, "all horses" is every horse on earth, "all of the horses" is every horse we're already talking about. However "all 5 horses" presupposes that we were already talking about a particular "5" horses (otherwise we wouldn't have said "all 5"), so it is identical in meaning to "all 5 of the horses", though it puts a subtle emphasis on "5" instead of "all", I think, not that that matters much. - Rainwarrior 04:45, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I disagree about the 4th. It's definitely wrong. "All the three of books were interesting". I don't think so. You can't even say "All the ten of us". It would be "All ten of us". JackofOz 05:30, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
"Us" is not a noun, anyway. Adam Bishop 15:50, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

And what about

All of [number] [plural noun]

?

Nope, that one's wrong too! Jameswilson 23:28, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
It's not wrong, it's just obscure. You use it when you want to emphasize how many there were. "All of five telephone lines went silent." - Rainwarrior 00:49, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
In that example, it's really emphasizing how insignificant the number was, in my understanding. Like in a population with a thousand telephones, and someone were complaining about how his telephone line went silent, you could reply with "all of five telephone lines went silent", meaning really "suck it up, it was only five", or so. I guess, anyway... —Keakealani •talk•contribs• 06:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Hahah, yeah. May I should have said "all of two million..." or something. - Rainwarrior 17:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Number 2 is halfways valid, but it would be done to create a certain effect that I can't quite pin down, rather than to change the meaning, you wouldn't see it in normal speech... Same with "All the # of [plural pronoun]. Linguofreak 02:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] balance sheet date

Balance sheet date: should it be hyphenated as Balance-sheet date

I don't think it really matters. Both are correct in my eyes. -- the GREAT Gavini 06:04, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I would definitely not use a hyphen there. "Balance" simply describes the sheet - a "balance-sheet" is not really distinct from any other sheet. -Elmer Clark 06:25, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I would use a hyphen. In general, when a two-word concept is used as a modifier, it gets a hyphen: "real-estate agent", "water-supply system". There are exceptions, but they don't apply here.-LambiamTalk 09:29, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I think it's personal taste, and also slightly the difference between British English and American English. Americans tend not to hyphenate - the British tend to. So it all depends on which you're more likely to follow. Ultimately, either is correct. —Keakealani •talk•contribs• 06:06, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
My understanding is that a hyphen is generally only mandatory in cases of potential confusion. Toronto Argonaut Damon Allen is a "Canadian-football player" but not a "Canadian football player." (He's from California.) In this case, the only logical reading of "balance sheet" is as a double modifier (two words that act like a single adjective). There's no way someone would think that "balance" modifies "sheet date," or that both "balance" and "sheet" are adjectives. So a hyphen here is optional. I tend to hyphenate all double modifiers out of habit. -- Mwalcoff 00:01, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Most American style guides (including such major references as the Chicago Manual) do call for a hyphen when compound nouns are used as modifiers, with some exceptions. Marco polo 20:08, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Word

Is castrophany a real word? I hear someone say it (saying it means real loud), but i can't find it in my dictionary or an online one. Cuban Cigar 10:01, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Could you be thinking of cacophony? User:Angr 10:42, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Cacaphony fits the description, and is most likely the right word, but i'm 100% sure they said castrophony. Well-they're probablly wrong.

They might have been combining catastrophe with cacophony for effect: "The concert was a horrid castrophany". StuRat 21:23, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm, -phon is a Greek root for sound. I wonder if cast(?)r(?)- is a Greek root for anything. I start thinking of the Latin word castor (beaver), which doesn't make much sense in this context. As a footnote, I think it sounds nice with the word castafioriphony. 惑乱 分からん 11:52, 26 August 2006 (UTC)


Googling the word produced [this link, which indicates it is a made-up word from a song by the band Gorillaz. Graham87 12:12, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

It could be a coined term fo a loud unruly chorus of castrati. Edison 15:52, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Somehow, castrati don't strike me as a loud and unruly group... 惑乱 分からん 16:10, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Just like Theophany means: "appearance of God (Theos) to man", Castrophany (with an a) would mean: "appearance of Castro to man". Have I earned a Cuban cigar with this answer? --LambiamTalk 17:07, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah so it's a made up word, i think he got it from the gorillas yeah. (Lol @ Lambian)Cuban Cigar 06:41, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

"Castrophany" is a portmanteau of the words cacophany and catastrophe.

[edit] Caps or not?

Is Kingdom, Southern or Northern captilized? What about other contexts?

After Solomon’s death the kingdom of Israel divided into the kingdom of Judah (from Jerusalem to the south, including the city of Benjamin) and the kingdom of Israel (north of Jerusalem, including the Simeonites, to the city of Dan).

So now there were two kingdoms: the northern kingdom composed of ten tribes (Israel), whose capital was Samaria; and the southern kingdom composed of two tribes (Judah), whose capital was Jerusalem.

The statues represent the kingdom of Persia. Kngdom of God? so on...... last one: Later on November 9, 1225 he married Isabelle of Brienne, heiress to the Kingdom of Jerusalem.

Acre, as the nominal capital of the Kingdom of Jerusalem was moved..... THANKS

If it's the actual name of the country, then yes, it should be caps. On the other hand, if it's just a description, as in "the southern kingdom of the Inca", then no caps are needed. StuRat 21:18, 26 August 2006 (UTC)