Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Science/2007 February 4

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[edit] February 4

[edit] Water as a yellow solid?

I left the lid on a pot of boiling water and came back thirty or so minutes later. Aside from my being an idiot, here's what I found: the lid had a thin layer of yellow power over in, and little balls of yellow powdery substance had formed in the pot. There was an intense smell, and the pot was hot enough to vaporize the hot water I poured on it on contact. Should I contact poison control? Is the pot safe to use again? And most importantly, what the heck just happened? --162.83.149.125 18:46, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

What's the material the pot is made of, and what do you usually use the pot for? — Kieff | Talk 20:29, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
It sounds like sulfur, but sulfur isn't water soluble. On the other hand, if it's water from the tap, there maybe lots of sulfur within the water (because it comes from the ground). Boiling water is one of extracting elements and compound within it.
I would call poison control, just to be on the safe side.--HoneymaneHeghlu meH QaQ jajvam 20:40, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Same here call poison control to check it out If it is toxic and was tap water then you need to bring it to the attention to the city you live in . but before you do that check your pipes (if you are using metal pipes then its probably rust) Maverick423 23:26, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

You didn't happen to take a picture of the pot and these yellow balls, did you? —Steve Summit (talk) 23:41, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
It sounds like gunge to me (it don't think the wikipedia article does the word justice) - it could be vaporised organic matter from the bottom of the sauce pan that condensed on the lid. The yellow stuff is not water! GB 23:57, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dopamine reuptake inhibitor| Antidepressants | NEED REFERENCES

Q1. I am looking for references to back up this paragraph:

In general, the abuse potential of DAR inhibitors depends on how they affect the pattern of dopamine release and reuptake. Compounds that inhibit reuptake and also induce release of dopamine, such as methamphetamine or phenmetrazine, or compounds that inhibit reuptake but have no effect on release, such as cocaine or methylphenidate, tend to be addictive drugs with potential for abuse in humans. [citation needed] On the other hand, compounds that inhibit reuptake but also inhibit release of dopamine, such as Wellbutrin and vanoxerine, have mild stimulant effects and little abuse potential, and can be used to treat stimulant addiction. [citation needed]

I would appreciate the references provided. Thank you. --Parker007 07:10, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

http://www.drugabuse.gov/NIDA_Notes/NNVol12N3/Compounds.html mentions the addictive properties, in relation to preventative treatments; http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/418525 mentions addiction's reuptake patterns in general, and then in relation to methadone and some othe B-drug that I forgot the name of. All provided by this Goog search. V-Man737 07:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Please explain how the above references are actually related to: "On the other hand, compounds that inhibit reuptake but also inhibit release of dopamine, such as bupropion have mild stimulant effects and little abuse potential." I would much appreciate a reply. Thanks. --Parker007 07:30, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Oh - now I see the first article doesn't mention Bupropion specifically... hrmph. Perhaps the sentence in the article should be changed to match the source, rather than whoring up a source to fit an exact claim? I'm sorry for the scanty help, it's past my bedtime... V-Man737 07:44, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
  • On the other hand, compounds that inhibit reuptake but also inhibit release of dopamine, such as Wellbutrin and vanoxerine, have mild stimulant effects and little abuse potential, and can be used to treat stimulant addiction. [citation needed]
  • I believe the above statement, I just want a reference. Please? --Parker007 00:05, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Please say which part of the statement you want a reference for.87.102.7.169 10:57, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Its "but also inhibit release of dopamine" --Parker007 02:05, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Searching for 'zyban' another name for bupropion - gives many references saying that it can be used to treat nicotine addition.
Searching for 'vanoxerine addiction' turns up numerous references saying that it may be useful for cocaine addiction eg http://dmd.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/29/9/1216 (note this says it is a dopamine reuptake inhibitor..I haven't done a full search for the best example.
Is this what you wanted references for or did you want a reference that says specifically that they inhibit dopamine release? If so see below.87.102.7.169 10:47, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
((Also the statement 'have little abuse potential' could be construed as weasel words when the articles on Bupropion clearly state that they have been abused by some patients.. Why not just re-write to match the facts.))87.102.7.169 11:10, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
From what I can find it seems that Vanoxerine inhibits other drug induced dopamine release - eg it inhibits the action of dopamine release by another drug - so that's subtly different. here http://www.mdma.net/dopamine/vanoxerine.html a 60% reduction in the dopamine release under the conditions described if I've read correctly.
Here's a reference that states that bupropion decreases spontaneous dopamine release http://www.cocaine.org/dopamine/efflux.html 87.102.7.169 11:22, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much friend; (I am looking for reference that states Wellbutrin/bupropion inihibits the release of dopamine; as there is already a reference in the article bupropion regarding it inhibits reuptake of dopamine.) from the last reference I got this:

“

Release of dopamine via the human transporter by Eshleman AJ, Henningsen RA, Neve KA, Janowsky A., Research Service, Veterans Affairs Medical Center, Portland, Oregon. Mol Pharmacol 1994 Feb;45(2):312-68

ABSTRACT A human dopamine transporter cDNA was cloned and transfected into COS-7 cells, a cell line that lacks vesicular storage and release mechanisms. Cells expressing the dopamine transporter acquired the capacity to take up and release dopamine via the transporter. Ionic conditions that stimulate inside-out transport in vivo, such as depolarizing concentrations of K+ or low concentrations of extracellular Na+, were found to stimulate Ca(2+)-independent release of [3H]dopamine from transfected COS-7 cells. Dopamine re-uptake inhibitors had one of three effects on transporter-mediated efflux. Some drugs, in addition to inhibiting re-uptake, inhibited spontaneous release of dopamine. Drugs in this class included mazindol, GBR-12935, bupropion, nomifensine, and benztropine. All of the drugs with the potential for abuse by humans either enhanced release (methamphetamine, amphetamine, and ethanol) or had no effect on release (phencyclidine, cocaine, and WIN 35,428). The ability to define classes of uptake blockers based on their effects on human transporter-mediated dopamine efflux may lead to the identification of structural features of the transporter that differentiate abused from nonabused drugs.

 ”

--Parker007 02:16, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Would the source http://www.cocaine.org/dopamine/efflux.html for the above abstract conform to Wikipedia:Reliable_sources ? --Parker007 07:21, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

The page references "Mol Pharmacol 1994 Feb;45(2):312-68" at the top - Molecular Pharmacology Journal I assume - I can't check this but I'd assume yes.87.102.9.15 11:18, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] On the subject of cockatoos...

I've never owned a cockatoo myself but having spoken to cockatoo owners in real life and online, I have been told that peculiarly amongst pet birds, tame cockatoos (particularly Umbrella Cockatoos and Moluccan Cockatoos) actively enjoy being picked up and cuddled and will continuously pester their owners to be held like babies (screeching and screeching until they get their own way - and they can be *loud*). Now, as someone with experience keeping parrots, I know that the birds generally *hate* being picked up, especially if their wings are restrained. Anyone know what the deal is with cockatoos? More than one owner has reported to me that these birds behave like this 'out of the box', with little in the way of training required, like it comes completely naturally to them to enjoy being held by a potential predator. I find it a bit odd. --Kurt Shaped Box 00:24, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Not a cockatoo, but our sun conure loves being cuddled, climbing inside clothing, and the like.
Atlant 13:39, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
I can't answer the "why", but my sister Suzy had a cockatoo (looked exactly like our picture), and I can confirm all of the above. Coral would spend as much time on my sister's shoulder as possible, even in the shower, lifting first one wing and then the other as my sister turned so that the bird could wash under both. Coral was also deeply sexist, vastly preferring the company of women, and hissing whenever I or Suzy's husband or any other man got near.
The arrival of first Suzy's husband, then their dog, then their first child -- all put deeper and deeper strains on Coral's emotions. It got so bad that on the day when I was at their house babysitting the first child while Suzy was at the hospital delivering her second, Coral walked into the room and started nuzzling up against my leg; that's how desperate the bird was for affection in what she seemed to see as her abandonment by Suzy. Eventually she had to give Coral away, to a bird farm where Coral found another cockatoo to fall in love with instead of a human, and was much happier after that.
I'll have to ask Suzy if she can give any insight into why cockatoos are like this. —Steve Summit (talk) 14:33, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Speed of Light

What is the speed of light, and how can we tell? It goes too fast to just use a speed gun on. 71.219.43.14 01:32, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

THe speed of light is approximately 300 000 km/s or 186 000 miles/s. Have a look at the speed of light article for more information. The article also gives a description of how these numbers were reached. The method used is to reflect a beam of light off an object and time how long it takes. This site also gives a quick explanation. - Akamad 01:44, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
The speed of light is different in different media. What is often colloquially referred to as "the speed of light" is actually the speed of light in a perfect vacuum. -- mattb @ 2007-02-04T03:21Z
Quite right, but the speed of light in air is practically the same. It's slower than speed of light in vacuum by only about 100 km/s or 60 miles/s, wihch is less than the roundoff error in the approximate numbers quoted above.
Not incidentally that a "speed gun", mentioned by the original poster, is a device that's only possible because we know what the speed of light is. (Well, it uses radio waves, but the speed is the same.) --Anonymous, February 4, 05:02 (UTC).


And that brings up another way to measure speed. Permittivity can be measured from capacitance and the relationship to the speed of light is known, therefore, two paths (one free space, the other through a dielectric) could be set up and the difference in arrival times measured. This will reduce measurement error as it is common to both measurements. Just a guess. --Tbeatty 08:30, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Technically the speed of light is Time, and Time equals the speed of light. For a detailed explanation see this web site. http://www.grandunification.com/ Zeno333 20:50, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Technically this is nonsensical and no physicist would agree with it. -- mattb @ 2007-02-10T21:30Z

[edit] The sun

How old is the sun? Nucleocosmochronology has a different answer than sun. Also how does Nucleocosmochronology tell the age? The article is vague. 71.219.43.14 02:01, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Huh? Both articles say the Sun is 4.57 billion years old, give or take. Clarityfiend 05:13, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Phylogenetic tree

Hi! Would anyone know where i could find a phylogenetic tree of life, containing all groups, made in a nice and clear way, and up-to-date? It's to print and use as a poster. It can be in a book, article, website,... The best would be if it could have little drawings for species examples, derived characteristics, and maybe other features like that. Thanks!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.55.198.228 (talk) 02:39, 4 February 2007 (UTC).

Try the tree of life project. --JWSchmidt 23:31, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Look at Phylogenetic_tree, but the images here are more useful as a page in a book rather than having the amount of detail presented on a poster. GB 23:50, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Given issues with copyright from other sources it might be a good idea to construct your own..87.102.8.103 12:40, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Methadone and Anestesia?

Is it safe to be a methadone patient (receiving methadone on a daily basis) and undergo surgery with a general anesthesia such as Propofol? I'm not asking for any kind of advice, diagnosis, nor would I have surgery while being on any kind of drug without first discussing it with my Doctor. I just would like to know if there are any problems or interactions with general anesthesia that is most commonly used and methadone. I'm sure there are tons of medications used, but there must be one that is commonly used such as Halothane or Propofol. Thanks

Sniggity 05:54, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I think you are asking a question that could pretty much only be answered by a qualified anesthetist, I don't know if there are any that read this board. I'm sure methadone patients have undergone surgery but as to how safe or which anesthetic is used, I have no idea. Vespine 10:58, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fin Dimensions

Greetings... For a rated average power of 3 KW and frequency range of DC to 3.0 GHZ, what fin dimensions would I require in my heat sink??? As the coolant I would use Silicone oil, capacity of 1 Gallon Load resistor would be of 10-12 inches and Diameter would be 12-15 mm. All this is for building a RF Load as a part of engineering curriculum. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.187.198.42 (talk) 06:45, 4 February 2007 (UTC).

Sounds like homework. But for starters, don't you need to know the temperature requirement of the load resistor or temp limit of the oil or other components? --Tbeatty 07:08, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
We absolutely need to know the max allowable temperature of the oil and the resistor, and also the ambient temperature (how hot of a room will it be in) and whether there is air circulating or not. Also, do you want it to be able to run continuously, 24/7, or will it have , say, a 50 % duty cycle, or be rated for 10 minutes of operation. As a refinement, will it be in the sun or in the shade, and if in the sun, what color will it be. As a thought experiment, I compare it to a distribution transformer with say a 4% loss at full load. Your 3 KW heat dissipation would then require about the same radiator as a 60 kilowatt transformer, which is HUGE compared to a 1 gallon paint can. Another comparison: [1] says an electric range burner uses about 800 watts, fso your device would need enough radiationg surface to siddissipate the heat of almost 4 range burners. 3000 amps is 12.5 amps at 240 volts, so you have a very large amount of heat to dissipate. I would go with a cooling fan. Your device wilkl heat up like two 4 slice toasters per the site listed. To avoid overheating you will need a large area of copper or aluminum fins connected to the can in such a way heat is efficiently transferred (soldered? Or tight fit with the special grease they use on top of PC chips to connet them to the heatsink.? (Someone who took a course in thermal engineering, should the radiator fins be painted black? And there will still be a tendency for the oil to overheat and expand, if you only have convection inside the can, so the top of the resistor might get excessively hot. Could you install a thermometer or thermocouple or an oil temp thermometer? Edison 23:23, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, I must apologize. I will operating at 600 Watts average and not 3KW which I errenously mentioned. Secondly, Thanks for responding. The max. allowable temp. of the oil is 250 degree Celsius and the resistor of about 200 degree celsius. NO, it wouldn't run 24/7 and ambient temp. would be 30-40 degrees depending on the climate.

[edit] Names for bioluminescence in the ocean

Are there any common (non scientific) names for bioluminescence in the ocean? (Note that Milky Sea is thought to be caused by bacteria, not by bioluminescencing plankton.) Thanks for your help. S.dedalus 06:47, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

There is in Norwegian, Danish, German, and possibly also Turkish. My Norwegian-to-English dictionary has no entry for the word. Google translate translates Meeresleuchten (German) to "Sea lights", but that is simply a literal translation, I have no idea whether it's actually used. According to the German wikipedia, these "sea lights" play a key role in this children's novel, so if anyone's got a copy, they might check how it has been translated. --NorwegianBlue talk 15:42, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wormholes in 3d space

Wormholes are commonly represented in images explaining them as 2d holes or tunnels, however, because space is 3d, and not 2d, I am having difficulty visualizing. How are things like wormholes represented in 3d, rather then the 2d represention. (like the warping of space time due to a massive object like the sun is shown as a ball on a plane).--HoneymaneHeghlu meH QaQ jajvam 08:15, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Notice how it takes 3-D to "visualize" the bending of 2-D space. So it will take at least 4-D to visualize the bending of 3-D space. Can you visualize in 4-D? --Spoon! 10:45, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

We see in 4D all the time (no pun intended), its just 3D in relation to time (relative movement)...

The reason that it is difficult to visualise could be that a worm hole is impossible in 'conventional' 3D euclidean space - (I'd imagine that you visualise things in 3D euclidean space - I do anyway). I could say it's difficult to imagine because they don't exist...87.102.35.119 13:18, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] developement of SPRING stl?

<email removed> —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.72.54.244 (talk) 12:52, 4 February 2007 (UTC).

Please try to write a coherent question.. Did you mean 'can I have more info on the development of spring steel? (if so you may wish to look at the crucible steel and puddling process Please clarify?87.102.35.119 12:59, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ARUUN SINGH

what are the benefits of swallowing human semen? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 221.134.58.58 (talk) 14:16, 4 February 2007 (UTC).

The Master has already addressed one aspect of this question; see here. —Steve Summit (talk) 14:50, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Less messy than any other method of oral evacuation? Rockpocket 07:48, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
And of course the possibility of gratitude if the donor is of the mind that any other method is some kind of insult.

[edit] Bird identification and image request

Image:Bird.parts.jpg

Hi, does anyone recognize this bird? Could a better image that's more suitable for printing be made? (It wouldn't have to be the same species, but I wonder if finding a bird with all the features would be easy.) Thank you. :) --Kjoonlee 14:57, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Is it the dreaded caption bird, who skewers would-be predators with sharp words, like a verbal porcupine? Clarityfiend 19:07, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
I too would like to point out it's the green diagram bird (birdus diagrammaticus) - seriously it looks a lot like a finch, or tit - a passerine. I doubt it would be difficult to find and alternative - as long as the species has wing bars your in luck.87.102.8.103 11:17, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it's almost certainly a composite made up for the purpose of labelling. See insect for a really weird composite insect!--Shantavira 19:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Heh. :) The original uploader has responded to my inquiry.
Hi, this image was meant to describe the most important characteristics to the anatomy of a common (passerine) bird, and not to represent an actual species. However, this fantasy bird was loosely based on the anatomy of the chaffinch (although the colors do not match). I do not have a higher resolution version of this image, nor do I have an unlabeled version. Sorry. :-(
So I guess that's enough info to get someone to come up with a better image.. :) --Kjoonlee 15:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] history of nitroglycerine as a medicine for heart pain

Hello- I am writing a historical novel set in the 1880's. One of my characters has heart pain (angina), and takes nitroglycerine for it. Is this appropriate for the times? I know that it had been discovered, and was being used as an explosive, but when did it start being used as a medicine? Thank you for your help.

Sincerely,  Irene Wolf 16:50, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure myself, but I think the article, Glyceryl trinitrate (pharmacology) may have what you are looking for. - Dozenist talk 16:55, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

William Osler mentions it in his 1892 Principles and Practice of Medicine as an alternative treatment to amyl nitrite, which either he preferred or was the standard treatment of the time. The wording might be interpreted that nitroglycerin was relatively new and not universally considered standard. alteripse 17:11, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

You're in luck. According to [2], it was first used for angina in 1879. Clarityfiend 17:56, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Off on a slight tangent but the topic reminded me of this Darwin Award story... --Kurt Shaped Box 18:58, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
That raises another question. Who thought this up? Let's treat heart pains with...a dangerous explosive. An ancestor of Dr. Kevorkian? Monty Python? Clarityfiend 20:12, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

A short history of nitroglycerine and nitric oxide in pharmacology and physiology. --JWSchmidt 23:17, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dioxygen leak?

Is it true that a major dioxygen leak could have drastic effects on local plant and animal life? Is it true that leaks of this type have occured all over the country leaving very high dioxygen levels in the atmosphere? Isn't this hazardous?

See dioxygen. See also dihydrogen monoxide. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:59, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
It's definitely a fire hazard. And I've heard that everyone who breathes it, expires. Clarityfiend 20:13, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Dioxygen is a good oxidizer, and therefore can be very dangerous in the presence of a fuel and ignition source. -- mattb @ 2007-02-04T20:35Z
But it is nothing compared to dioxin which comes from PCB. Edison 23:01, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Well that's true, even literally! No one lives forever!
Funnily enough, our atmosphere is 20% dioxygen! —LestatdeLioncourt 14:46, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

mmmm mmm smell that beautiful dioxygen! i dont know man but for some reason i think you need to double check your sources lol you might find the extra info useful that is if you havent done so already. Maverick423 16:02, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Dioxygen is just oxygen —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.109.41.162 (talk • contribs).

No, dioxygen is O2. There is a difference between a molecule and an element, even if we are being silly and pedantic about it. -- mattb @ 2007-02-06T06:39Z

[edit] Free radical bromination of ethane

I already looked at the articles related to this subject, (free radical halogenation, and ethane) but I'm not sure I understand the initiation, propagation, and termination mechanisms behind it. Is there a visual examination for the free radical bromination of ethane that anyone knows of?

free radical halogenation has the answers - could you be more specific as to what you don't understand/want explaining.
Also I don't understand what you mean by 'visual examination' - do you mean a page with images to explain the process, or a way visually of telling if the process is occuring or something else?87.102.8.103 11:21, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Can't afford the real thing, so I make doo with sham poo

When my shampoo runs low, I leave the bottle turned over, so the last dregs accumulate at the cap. But I've noticed that it seems to eat the plastic in the cap (the color runs into the shampoo). What causes it? Is this harmful? Clarityfiend 20:20, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Wow, what are you putting in your shampoo?! [Mαc Δαvιs] X (How's my driving?) ❖ 14:30, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

i think your using bleach as shampoo... nah just kidding its that thing that helps clean your hair thats causing that. its not harmful (unless swallowed ((or left on your hair for a long time))). Maverick423 16:04, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Lots of the chemicals in shampoo disolve other chemicals, so it could be one of these causing this:(

Some of these chamicals also disolve the proteins that hair is made from, so it probably isn't a good idea to wash with it at all:(

It's a nationally-marketed brand, not some weird generic glop. Oh well, I suppose the company may be saving money by using a cheaper, less durable plastic for the top. Clarityfiend 22:03, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] jaw injury

What is the likelihood that a serious injury to the upper jaw, would subsequently cause a person to be reported as a chronic drunk? Consider the effect upon motility of the tongue, and the distinct possibility of affecting the inner structures involving balance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.104.2.173 (talk • contribs) 20:50, 4 February 2007

What is the likelihood? ?? Is that a serious question? What kind of answer do you want? The likely hood is unlikely? or, maybe a one in ten? Or do you want to discuss the various conditions? If it is dark and the observer is himself drunk then the likelihood is higher then if the subject is in an operating theatre being examined by physicians. Serious injury seems to imply some sort of pain and breakage if not bleeding, those are going to be hard to mistake for drunkenness. I work with a guy who has sclerosis and he was refused entry into a bar once because the bouncer thought he was drunk, no kidding.. So I guess it's not impossible. Vespine 21:30, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Given that someone with a recent serious jaw injury would be either - bleeding or screaming in pain - I'd say it's unlikely. They'd probably also be pointing to their jaw as well and be saying something like 'I've got a serious jaw injury - please help me..' - whereas a chronic drunk would stink of beer, smell of urine and probably be singing 'auld lang syne'...87.102.8.103 11:25, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

It is phrased like a homework question. I feel sorry for the student-- if actually provided as cited, it is a question so poorly phrased that we are all guessing at the real intended question. My guess is that the teacher is asking, "An injury to what part of the vocal apparatus would produce speech that would sound like drunken slurring to most people." The answer is a stroke or an injury to the brain would be the best mimic, because most of us can readily tell the difference between defects of central speech processing and defects of articulation. If the answer is to be restricted to the area of the upper jaw, it would be an injury to efferent motor nerves controlling tongue, mouth and palate. Good luck to the student. alteripse 14:14, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Damage to the inner ear, which is very possible in an upper jaw punch, could cause damage to the semicircular canals, which measure the orientation of the head. Damage to the canals causes loss of balance and difficulty walking, just like alcohol. Laïka 21:25, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Well I suppose whatever had injured the upper jaw might also have caused other problems, like concussion. People with head injuries can be mistaken for being drunk, as occasionally happens in police stations and hospitals on Friday nights in town centres... Skittle 23:17, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fermi Problems

When I get fermi problems, do I have to use my "own basic knowledge and experience" or am I allowed to look stuff up? I don't know how much cheese France consumes every year/day/month! How do I guess that? --JDitto 23:18, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

One of the purposes of a Fermi problem is to get an idea of scale and the approximate magnitude of the answer, it is not intended to be that accurate. I don't know how many people live in France off-hand, but I might guess 20 million based on size relative to some US states and given Europe has a higher population density. The average person eats maybe a half-pound of cheese a week. 20 million people * 0.5 pounds cheese week/person = 10 million pounds per week, or roughly 1 million pounds a day, which is undoubtedly totally wrong, but I have some confidence that it isn't under 100 thousand per day, or over 10 million. On actually looking at the France article, my estimate is off by three times, but the magnitude of my estimate didn't change significantly. Atropos235 03:02, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Have you read our article on Fermi problems? As that article explains, you typically work with just a bunch of guesses. Certainly you can't look up the final answer -- if you could, it wouldn't be a Fermi problem -- and for the intermediate numbers leading up to the answer, most are either educated guesses, or "basic knowledge and experience". (In the "number of piano tuners in Chicago" example in the Fermi problem article, the only quantity you could easily look up is the number of people in Chicago; all the rest of the numbers are pulled out of the air.) The point of the exercise is usually to come up with a quick estimate, without doing any research, and perhaps at the same time to discover which potential avenues of research might be used to obtain a more accurate (non-guessed) answer later. —Steve Summit (talk) 02:50, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
[P.S. It occurs to me in light of recent debate that the Fermi problem approach -- pulling a bunch of numbers out of the air, and combining them with some basic knowledge and educated guesses -- is precisely what Wikipedia's verifiability policy suggests we shouldn't be doing in answering questions on the Reference Desk... :-)]
I just need to know what I'm allowed to look up. I know I'm not allowed to look up the answers, so I want to stay away from reading the article itself right now. Thank you so far, though.--JDitto 05:37, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Wait -- you're not allowed to read the articles on cheese or France, or you're not allowed to read the article on Fermi problem??
I'd say the short answer is, no: for a proper Fermi solution you shouldn't look anything up. Background knowledge, armchair speculation, and erudite pontification only. —Steve Summit (talk) 12:37, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Fermi problems are problems where you are not able to calculate the answer, given the proper information. You are allowed to look up whatever you want, but at the end you will have to estimate a plausible answer anyway. Mr.K. (talk) 18:26, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I would say that a fermi problem should only include information known to you or easy to find and integral to the problem. so for the france one it seems fine to look up the pop of france. its a matter of effort and time not deliberate limitation of knowledge. Beckboyanch 02:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, this is what I got for the "France eating the Moon", looking up as many non-internet sources as possible:

  • Earth's Mass: 5.9 X 1024 kg
  • Children's Astronomy Book: Earth is 50X bigger than the Moon.
  • Therefore: (5.9 X 1024) / 50 = 1.18 X 1023 kg
  • MAYO Food Guide Pyramid says that 2-3 servings of milk group everyday.
  • Each serving = 1 1/2 oz. of natural cheese
  • 1 oz = 28.35 g
  • Therefore: 2.5 X 28.35 = 70.875 g cheese eaten by a person per day, .0070875 kg
  • France's population found in Encarta Encyclopedia: 58,609,285
  • That's approximately 59 X 106 people
  • So the rate of consumption is: 59 X 106 people X .0070875 kg = 418 163 kg consumed per day.
  • In the arithmetic series equation, I'd have to solve for n.
  • an = a1 + (n − 1)d would become n = (an − a1) / d + 1.
  • Then it would be n = (1.18X1023kg − 418163) / 418163 + 1
  • So it would take France 2.82 X 1017 days to eat the moon.

What do you think?--JDitto 07:04, 6 February 2007 (UTC)