Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2007 November 28

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[edit] November 28

[edit] Sneakers and shipwrecks.

Here is a good one:

There was a documentary on TV a while back about how shipping containers full of goods sometimes fall off of cargo ships and shed their loads into the ocean. Scientists can track the flow of these items and deduce things about ocean currents.

In the show, one of the scientists said that one particular beach ended up full of Adidas sneakers from a shipwreck...he said that all of the left-footed shoes had ended up on this particular beach - but none of the right-footed ones. He claimed to have discovered that the shape of the shoe as it floated caused the left-footed shoe to follow one branch of a particular ocean current because it tended to turn one way in the water - where all of the right-footed shoes followed the other branch and ended up elsewhere. He also talked about the famous containerload of spanish bath toys (plastic ducks, crocodiles and turtles) and remarked how the ocean 'sorted' those too - so that some beaches got only ducks while others got only turtles.

OK - this is weird and interesting - but kinda plausible.

Well, I was reading the William Gibson book "Spook County" last night - and it relates the same incident - one beach full only of left-footed shoes. However, his explanation is that sneaker manufacturers ship left footed shoes in separate shipments from right-footed shoes in order to cut down on pilferage - there is little point in stealing a container load of shoes of the same handedness.

Also rather interesting - and kinda plausible.

So which is true?

SteveBaker (talk) 01:29, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Dunno. See also Friendly Floatees, whilst we're searching for articles on this subject in wikipedia. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:59, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Washed Up: The Curious Journeys of Flotsam and Jetsam (ISBN 1570614636) goes with the the first of your two scenarios. Also The Age says. "Most recently, they have been collecting information about 33,000 Nike shoes that slipped from a ship off the California coast in December last year. And this is not the first time. In 1990, the same footwear company lost 80,000 shoes further out in the Pacific. Within two years, everything from children's trainers to hiking boots were washing up as far away as Hawaii. The shoes were still wearable, even after all that time in the water, but only if the other one of the pair could be found, as partners were not laced together. (In case you were wondering, it's not that Nike are particularly careless with their wares - they are simply one of the only companies that will talk to Ebbesmeyer when they lose a shipment overboard.) [1] This would also suggest the first of your two scenarios, since Nike would know how their shoes are shipped, why would they mislead the scientists by giving them incorrect information? Rockpocket 00:05, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Excellent! Many thanks - I'm ordering the book now - it sounds fascinating. William Gibson's books are (of course) only fiction - but they are usually well researched. I guess not so much so in this case! If Nike were really shipping left shoes in separate shipments to right then they would obviously want to make this abundantly clear since they wish to discourage theft - not piss off the thieves after they'd already stolen a shipment. So, I agree that they have no reason to keep that secret. Thanks again, this is a text-book example of how the Ref Desk should operate! SteveBaker (talk) 15:12, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
As a side note, I just learned of this in an Oceanography class I took this last year. What happened was in May of 1990 the container vessel Hansa Carrier was en route from Seoul to Seattle, when it encountered a severe North Pacific storm. It was carrying those large 40 foot long metal shipping cargo containers that you can see stacked up on top of those large transport ships. Apparently during the storm the ship lost 21 of these containers overboard, including five of which held 61,820 Nike shoes. The shoes float, so that when the containers broke by collapsing from pressure while falling through the deep ocean, the shoes returned to the surface and began their long journey across the sea to wash ashore on beaches all over the place.
This incident of the lost Nike shoes was very helpful to scientists for a variety of reasons. First, Nike shoes are valuable, and so people who found them washed up on beaches would be more likely to pick them up and take them home. Second, because they'd want to find a matching pair of shoes, they created a network for people who'd found Nike shoes to link up with one another to make trades. This allowed scientists to study where the shoes had washed up, and that raw data provided a lot of insight into what the ocean currents in the North Pacific do. It just happened that the location where the cargo carrier box washed overboard the transport ship was in a spot in the North Pacific where the currents do some strange things that the scientists have been wanting to understand better. So it's like they could not have created a better study on their own then what was given to them by accident with this event.
In addition to the Nike shoes, there have been some other major spills of items from lost cargo carrier boxes that get accidently knocked or washed off of transport ships at sea. Here is a list (taken from my textbook "Essentials of Oceanography", by Alan P. Trujillo and Harold V. Thurman, 8th edition, Prentice Hall, 2005):
May 1990 North Pacific Ocean near International Date Line : 61,820 Nike athletic shoes : Many were recovered in good condition
Jan 1992 North Pacific Ocean near International Date Line : 100,000 plastic bathtub toys : Recently reported sightings in the Atlantic
Dec 1994 North Pacific Ocean : 34,000 hockey gloves
Feb 1997 Atlantic Ocean off Land's End, England : 5,000,000 Lego pieces : One of the largest spills of floating items; many items have an ocean theme
Dec 1999 North Pacific Ocean : 18,000 Nike Cross-Trainer shoes
Jan 2000 North Pacific Ocean : 3000 computer monitors, 10,000 children's shoes, 26,000 Nike sandals : multiple items from multiple ship spills
Mar 2001 North Atlantic Ocean 262,500 plastic soap dispensers : intended to be coupled with liquid soap containers
Dec 2002 Pacific Ocean off northern California 33,000 Nike athletic shoes, 17000 cans of noodles ; began washing ashore less than a month later
So as you can see, this is a fairly commonplace occurrence! --Saukkomies 04:10, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Obscene Spam

Why am I receiving obscene spam from: JoycepulitzerCovington@wikipedia.org

Do you allow this?

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.81.37.37 (talk) 01:41, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Because someone is spoofing the "from" part of the emails you're getting. The spam has nothing to do with us ... in a sense, we're as much victims of it as you are, since our reputation is tarnished to the extent that a person like you would think an organisation like this would send spam. See also E-mail spoofing. Your email removed to prevent more spam. See also E-mail address harvesting. It's just possible that you coudl so with learning a little more about E-mail spam and Anti-spam techniques (e-mail), though I don't think there's any complete solution. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:49, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
See also Joe job. --24.147.86.187 (talk) 04:22, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia doesn't hand out email addresses. So this is definitely a fake. It's really trivially easy to fake the 'from' address on spam email - it happens all the time. I would be surprised if ANY of the spam you get has a truthful 'from' address. You are getting it because some evil spamster has gotten hold of your email address and added you to their list of targets. There isn't much you can do about that - if you block mail from that address, it wouldn't help because they'll simply fake a different email address next time around. SteveBaker (talk) 01:53, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

There is some sort of program where you can generate any email address to be shown as the sender.I have even received spam from my own address which was remarkably clever... Lemon martini (talk) 14:28, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

There are email client programs out there that allow you to simply edit the 'From' field just like you can edit the 'To' field. I used to use the 'Pine' program under Linux and there was an compile-time option in that tool to turn on a command that would allow editing of the 'From' and 'ReplyTo' fields. The CAN-SPAM laws in the US prohibit deliberately misrepresenting the sources of email though - so probably there are not many programs remaining that still allow this. However, spammers are not using Pine or Thunderbird or Outlook to send their messages! They are using software that's custom-written for their evil trade that (presumably) automates this kind of thing. Their problem is to pick names that will induce you to read the junk they send rather than deleting it unopened - yet not to repeatedly use the same name - which might cause you to be able to automatically filter your email and get rid of all that stuff. Wikipedia is one of the top ten most read English language web sites - so they probably figured that some people would not be surprised to be getting an email from Wikipedia and would therefore open it. Who knows what their evil minds may be dreaming up next? SteveBaker (talk) 15:10, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Going to washroom in morning

Why does one's body have strong urges to go to the washroom for a #2 in the mornings-"Morning Glory"? Acceptable (talk) 01:52, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

You don't stop producing the stuff while you sleep - and it's been...what...8 hours since you last went? Duh! SteveBaker (talk) 01:55, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
8hrs? Oh if only :). Basically what happens is that whilst you are asleep your body goes into, surprisingly enough, sleep mode :), although your bowel is still functioning it's doing it slower, additionally the nerves which detect expansion of the rectum (the ones that tell the brain when you need to go) are less sensitive. So when you wake up, normal bowel functions pick up, the nerves start working at full efficiency and say, "hey the rectum's full, better tell the guy up stairs to get the magazines out we may be a while". Obviously the actual biological run down is more complicated than that, but that's the CliffsNotes version :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by WebHamster (talk • contribs) 05:56, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Buying an airsoft gun

I am looking for a automatic electric rifle that is some where below $50 but also high quality (as high as i can get). How do I tell if its good? Or does any one have any sugestions for me? Thanks. --76.235.183.66 (talk) 03:08, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't believe you can get a quality one at that price point. My recommendation is to go for brand-name (Maruzen? TM?), and look for one that is so common that economies of scale start taking effect. Generally, the internals are so similar, that the only place to save money is in the build of the external body. At the $50 mark, you're stuck with AA-powered toys or spring-powered... toys. --Mdwyer (talk) 20:31, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I dont need it hi quality i just want it to be as good as they get for that price.And thanks agin.--76.235.183.66 (talk) 20:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Go here Though its a more then you wanted to spend its a fantastic mid range gun. If you get more into the game you wont need a mjor update in brand of gun but if you dont go to serious you will still have a good gun. Best gun i owned till it broke(note i broke it not the gun) Esskater11 22:56, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Try this. I have no idea whatever how good it is, but it's got extras! Fleetflame (talk) 01:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] converting vinyl to cd

dear sir(s), I am converting my vinyls to cd on a TAEC player. The result is fine when i play the results on cd players of 2000+ time. However, i prefer to use my B&O cd player, which dates back to 1982, but it refuses to play them. It is happy to play anything else, Any clues? I would be grateful for any suggestions from anyone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.80.173.87 (talk) 05:30, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like it isn't happy with the dyes used on the CD blanks you are using. Try another brand, or better yet see if you can get a sample pack from a supplier to see which ones it likes. --WebHamster 05:50, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
A friend has a player that plays cd+r but not cd-r. I don't know if it applies to your problem though. Keria (talk) 10:00, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Presumably you mean DVD+R and DVD-R? Writable CDs are either CDR or CDRW. --WebHamster 11:26, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Your right! Mhh. How did we arrive at that conclusion at the time? There definitely was a type of CD's the player wouldn't have and another that worked. Some CD-R's are marketed as for recording audio only maybe there is a difference there? The CD-R article has more info on possible solutions to the questionner's problem. Thank you for pointing out my error. Keria (talk) 15:21, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Also you are quite correct, there are CDRs that are audio only. They have a digital flag on them that allows them to be written to by domestic, stand-alone CD writers, as opposed to computer CD writers. It's all to do with a levy that was put on recording media to placate the recording industry who tried to argue that audio recording media (tapes and CDs) were being used to make illegal recordings. They wanted their pound of flesh so the recording tape levy was introduced. The stand-alone writer can only write to the CDRs that have the digital flag, ie the ones for which 'recording duty' has been paid. All of which is irrelevant to the OPs original question as the audio only CDRs only affect writers. Once they've been written to they can be played on any CD player (in theory anyway). Thought you may like to know the background :) --WebHamster 18:35, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
How are you putting the data onto the CD's? As MP3 files or as CD Audio? Many modern CD players will play MP3's but older ones do not. MP3 files are considerably lower in quality than CD Audio - so if you are archiving your vinyl - you should probably keep copies in CD Audio format and use MP3's only as a convenience for MP3 players and such. SteveBaker (talk) 12:53, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
That's not necessarily true. MP3s can be of any quality, while CDs are generally at 256 kbps. If you're the ripper, you can do 320 kbps (which is semi-standard for HQ MP3 these days) for example - burning it to an audio CD would actually decrease data (and theoretically quality, though the difference between 256 and 320 is probably negligible to most listeners). Ripping to a non-compressed digital format would probably be the best anyway - Ogg Vorbis or the like. Matt Deres 21:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
We used to have an old CD player from the mid-80s which wouldn't play anything from a home-burnt CD. Commercial CDs were fine, but something about the home-style made its knickers tie in knots. You might have to pick up a more modern CD player for those ones. Steewi (talk) 23:57, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
It has to do with different reflection levels: a pressed CD from a factory will have a very high reflectivity difference between the pits and the disk surface (>20%, IIRC). A CD-R will have a lower difference between burnt areas and non-burnt areas (about 5%), and a CD-RW will have a very low difference (around 1%). Since the older players are designed for the high differences of pressed CDs, they can have trouble reading CD-Rs, and are usually unable to read CD-RWs. --Carnildo (talk) 00:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
I once heard that it has to do with the speed when you burn CD and the most reliable speed is x1, even if it takes long. But I think it's almost impossible to do so today. Oda Mari (talk) 14:48, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Hm? What's wrong with "cdrecord speed=1"? Is there a hardware limitation that won't allow it? I haven't actually tried it -- never wanted to wait that long. --Trovatore (talk) 20:48, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Most modern media won't support a read speed of 1x (can't remember if the minimum is 2x or 4x) as the dye is optimised for high-speed use. For some reason the dye can't deal with the sustained laser heat of a 1x writing. --WebHamster 21:39, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
2x writing is the "base" speed. How I miss my old 4-2-24 CDRW burner. NOT! Matt Deres 21:46, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Help me plan a super unconventional Haitian vacation

I'm booked to go to Haiti for 10-11 days over Christmas break. My goal as a tourist is to immerse myself into challenging corners of the national life. I already have some ideas:

Cite Soleil -- the largest slum in the capital city, a community out of the reach of government authority before the UN crackdown in this year. I wouldn't want to go in without protection. There is a large contingent of Jordanian peacekeepers and my friend speaks Arabic. Anyone have suggestions for ass kissing to get us permission to tag along on a foot patrol? Any ideas on how to develop contacts with the UN administration before going?

Witchdoctors -- An experienced globe trotter told me I should to the ER and ask for a referral.

Fishermen -- Transportation links are poor so maybe I will want to travel along the coasts by negotiating w/ fishing boat captains. Any general or specific advice?

Any other suggestions for cool diversions that will allow me to venture deeper into the national life?


lots of issues | leave me a message 07:57, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

  • I recommend you take the precautions outlined in the State Department's travel abroad health tips. Nothing ruins a trip to the slums like a sudden, life-threatening infection. --M@rēino 16:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
You don't seem to be much frightened about getting robbed or kidnapped which shows a great optimism about your vacation. Could I suggest you get good information about the areas to avoid and the recommendations for tourists visiting the country? Some of these can be found at our wikitravel article on Haiti. Keria (talk) 19:23, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I think that it is unlikely that a United Nations armed patrol is going to let an unarmed and, more importantly, untrained civilian accompany them on patrol, not so much because you would be in danger but more because your actions might endanger peacekeeping personnel or Haitian civilians (if, say, you were to make an imprudent move and get into a confrontation with civilians from which peacekeepers needed to disentangle you). Also, in general, you have to understand that many Haitians are desperately poor, with little to lose. As a wealthy foreigner, you are going to be a target for kidnappers who can make more ransoming you than they might hope to earn in a lifetime of labor in Haiti. Marco polo (talk) 20:42, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
You say that - but it may not be true. Set yourself up as a 'blogger' and you can legitimately claim to be a member of the press and ask to do this - I think you stand a good chance of getting to ride around with the UN folks. Take along a professional looking camera and sound recorder and claim to be a member of the press (whatever that means these days!) - and that could open a lot of interesting doors for the deeply adventurous...and who knows...maybe you'll write that blog and turn your trip into something that benefits everyone? SteveBaker (talk) 15:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Practice your French and pick up some Kreyol Haitien beforehand. Nothing says "I respect your culture" like trying to accommodate linguistically. Steewi (talk) 23:59, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] box box boxing

While I am doing shadow boxing I feel a jerk in the back of my head and a lot of pain afterwards.Did all the great boxers felt it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.247.95.189 (talk) 14:34, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

  • I am no doctor, but it sounds like you should consult a athletic trainer or a physical therapist and make sure your mechanics are sound. When you're doing intensive physical training, even minor derivations from proper technique can upset the delicate balances in your head and neck anatomy. --M@rēino 16:43, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ARUN S BAUGH ques. about a thing

what is the name of the 'name plate ' which is used to denote a person's designation esp on the table or desk ?as seen in the parliaments —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.95.186.82 (talk) 14:40, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

It's called a <name plate>ZZZZ86.209.29.92 (talk) 15:25, 28 November 2007 (UTC)DT

...and of course we have an article about it: Nameplate. SteveBaker (talk) 17:01, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The "H" Rate Make-up Stamp

Hey Wikipedia-Reference-Desk-Team!

I’m new to Wikipedia and not a member yet. I did the google search for a special postal stamp now for three days and couldn’t find any detailed informations. So I gave it a try at Wikipedia, but couldn't find anything here either.

I wrote an e-mail to Wikipedia and David Monniaux of the Wikipedia-Team forwarded me to this place. Thank you David!

I am looking for information about

The "H" Rate Make-up Stamp like this picture: http://i15.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/ag/c7/be07_1.JPG

and would like to suggest the idea on a new article with more details. I came across alot of other "Make-Up Stamps" with all kind of different motives. It is very interesting to me to find out some more about why it exist in the first place, how much the value is and if I still can use it. We still have an old sheet with eight stamps and I wonder, if I still can use it today. I have to mention, that I moved from Germany to the USA two years ago, so I really have no clue about this "Make-Up-Stamp"-thing, cause we don't have this in Germany.

Hopefully you can help me out.

Thanks, Sandra —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.195.63.208 (talk) 17:07, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I have asked if anyone from Wikipedia:WikiProject Philately can help with this one. 86.21.74.40 (talk) 17:34, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Check out Non-denominated postage. The particular US stamp was a 1-cent make-up rate issued on November 19, 1998. ww2censor (talk) 18:04, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
To answer the other part of your question: All officially issued US stamps are still good for whatever value they were issued for. So your H stamps can each be used for 1 cent of postage.--ShelfSkewed Talk 19:45, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
To answer an implied question: "make-up" stamps are generally issued whenever there is an increase in the postal rate for sending a one-ounce-or-less first-class letter (a standard letter) within the United States. The cost and value of the "make-up" stamp equals the increase in this rate. For example, when domestic postage recently increased from 39¢ to 41¢, a make-up stamp worth 2¢ was issued. Marco polo (talk) 20:31, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gold Nugget Hunting

What is the best and cheapest metal detector to go gold nugget hunting with (since a regular coin metal detector won't do the job)? What are some of the costs and where could I find them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.120.80.24 (talk) 19:17, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I suppose you have looked at Metal detector? Some of the external links at the bottom look promising. 130.88.79.39 (talk) 13:31, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Looking for a link

In the last week or so, not more than a couple days I think, I saw a link to a Penny-Arcade comic strip. Now I'm trying to find that strip again but I can't seem to find the link here. I think I remember seeing the link here, on one of the desks, as a humorous response to some question. Can anyone with better search skills than I seem to have please find the link for me? Thanks, Dismas|(talk) 20:29, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Have you tried out the PennyPacker search tool? I find it's generally the best way to dredge up PA strips (at least if I recall some of what was notable about the strip in question). — Lomn 22:07, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Penny Arcade? - 131.211.161.119 (talk) 08:35, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Yes, Penny Arcade, the web comic. And I don't remember the subject of the strip well enough to find it with a search tool. Dismas|(talk) 20:48, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mountain Dew: Code Red

I have heard from a friend that Code Red may be discontinued. I thought it was a bunch of bull until i noticed that the convienence store i usually go to had put Game Fuel in its place. I checked the Mountain Dew page and it said nothing of discontinuing it, it just said it was limited to certain areas, but my area has always had it. Anyone have an answer to whats going on?the juggreserection (talk) 21:15, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Consent to Search

Do you have to give consent in order for an officer to search your pockets etc. even if it is for weapons? For example if someone is pulled over and the officer asks them to step out of the car can the officer search them for drugs, weapons, etc. or do they have to ask for consent? In the United States... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.249.230.252 (talk) 21:50, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Some caveats: one, the reference desk doesn't give legal advice. Two, this is a state-by-state matter within the U.S. At a federal level, there's a prohibition against "unreasonable search and seizure". Current Supreme Court rulings suggest that precautionary pat-down searches do not require consent, though they require reasonable cause -- see "Terry Frisk" in the Fourth Amendment (US) article. — Lomn 22:12, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
This is a horrible tangled mess - and it is indeed different in every jurisdiction even within one country (the USA for example has state-by-state laws). BUT: Even if you are in the right - there is no point in being a dick-head about it. Case in point: A few months ago I was reading the blog of a particularly stubborn guy who decided to stand up for his rights in this matter. He was leaving a store (I think it was a branch of Fry's electronics) where they ask to see your receipt and inspect your bag of goodies on the way out. He maintained that the goods and the receipt were now his since he'd legally paid for them and refused to show them. Once outside the store, the store security people cornered him and refused to let him get into his car. His wife and children were in the car and started screaming in panic. He still refused to either accompany them inside or show his receipt. They called the police - and they attempted to search him, he refused - but they obtained the receipt anyway. His wife and kids are now frantic. So he tries to sue the cops for illegal search - it drags through courts and appeals and crap knows what else (there is some debate about whether it was justified because Fry's claimed he was a shoplifter - but they didn't investigate to see if that was a justified claim before they searched him...it was a big ugly mess). Eventually, he's proven right and the cop gets in trouble. However, it cost him over $10,000 to do this - which he never got back. Bottom line - you may be in the right - but there is no point in being a dick-head about it. SteveBaker (talk) 15:00, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
It was a Circuit City store. See [2].
Atlant (talk) 16:56, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Ah! You found the link! Excellent - everyone should ignore what I wrote and check it out for themselves! SteveBaker (talk) 19:39, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Ya I know the desk doesn't give legal device and I wasn't really asking for it, I was asking about a peticular law in a general sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.249.230.252 (talk) 01:57, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
The trouble, of course, is that it's not entirely settled law, at least in the United States. And the courts in the US are shifting rather dramatically to, ahem, a "more authoritarian" view of your rights, so even if you had certain rights yesterday, it's not clear you'll retain those rights tomorrow. And even if you still have a right, it may cost you enormous legal fees, personal time, and rape in jail to sucessfully exercise that right, so you may choose not to fully exercise your rights.
Atlant (talk) 13:02, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Earning Interest

How do banks pay you interest? I have a bank account which pays me a percetage for the year but calculates the interest daily. Supposing the interest rate is 5% and the bank calculates the interest monthly i've come up with two ways in which the bank could charge the interest. A=Balance in the account at the end of the month

1) \sum_{1}^{12} A * \frac{5%}{12} So the interest is calculated monthly by taking 5% of the balance and weighting 1/12 so the interest from all of the months gives 5%.

2) Interest each month = A * r where r = 1.05^\frac{1}{12} . So by the 12th month the total interest is A*r^{12} = A* 1.05^{(\frac{1}{12})^{12}} = A*1.05 .

Obviously there are other things to consider eg tax, but are any of these methods right? Thanks 212.140.139.225 (talk) 23:24, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea but have a look at sites like (http://www.math.com/tables/general/interest.htm) or (http://www.kbapps.com/finance.html). Sorry not very good at maths but these look like they have details on how to do interest calcs/formula. ny156uk (talk) 23:52, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Compound interest is the article you need - along with the magical formula FV = PV x (1+R)N - the future value (the money that will be in your account at some time in the future) equals the present value (the amount that's in there now) multiplied by one plus the interest rate (expressed as a number, not a percentage - so 5% is 0.05) raised to the power of the number of interest periods. If interest is compounded daily then N is the number of days - but remember you need the DAILY interest rate for R - not the ANNUAL rate. If interest is compounded monthly then N is the number of months and R is the MONTHLY interest rate. SteveBaker (talk) 23:57, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Presumably, you will be able to find the exact answer to this question in the terms and conditions of your account. If you do not have a copy of these, you can try looking for them on your bank's website (if they have one) or ask about them by telephone or at a branch. They will also clear up any other minor weirdnesses, like when exactly the interest is calculated and paid, how different lengths of months and leap years are dealt with, etc, etc. Thinking about banking and economics and stuff always makes my head hurt. 130.88.79.39 (talk) 13:28, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
The trouble is that banking systems started out with big thick ledger books with everyone's bank balance written into them - and once a month a small army of accountants would have to go through and add on the interest to each account. Since this was a huge amount of effort, they didn't want to compound the interest weekly or daily or anything. However, these days, computers could easily apply a continuously compounding formula that would eliminate all of these tedious details about what happens on leap years (or even leap-seconds) and when the interest is computed when daylight savings time kicks in and such. But old historical ways are hard to replace. SteveBaker (talk) 14:49, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Don't get me started on the banks and their ways. They didn't have any trouble at all in adapting to the bright idea of charging people to remove their own money from their own accounts. Banks adapt extraordinarily quickly to technology when it suits their bottom line, and are slaves to tradition when it doesn't. -- JackofOz (talk) 04:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "The effect of..." in essays

In my essay, the thesis is "The effect of Christian symbolism in The Grapes of Wrath." Now, my question is, what does "the effect of Christian symbolism" contain? Do I explain how it effects the story, how it effects the reader, how it effects the characters, etc., or do I just explain how characters symbolize Christian things? The way I'm doing my essay (I'm currently doing the outline for it) is I'm explaining how characters and people symbolize people in the Bible, but "the effect" sounds like I should explain their impact on the novel. Opinions?--Isignbooks7 (talk) 23:58, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) In order to properly answer the essay question, you should consider the impact of the novel without the Christian symbolism (a kind of null-hypothesis). If it wasn't there, is the novel still as good? Would the characters have acted the same way? Give examples of the use of Christian symbolism as a plot device (e.g. X did Y because they represent Z in the story. If they did A instead of Y, it would be inconsistent with the allegory), and as a way to make the reader think of people or events in a certain way (e.g. Because X represents Z, the reader is more inclined to think of him/her/it as good/bad/a God-like figure). You should also give examples of parallels between the story and events in the Bible and in Christian history and mythology. Steewi (talk) 00:09, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Did you pick the topic or was it assigned? If the former, you get to the set the scope of it. If the latter, you'd better check. Personally I think it is extremely ambiguous and, dare I say it, a poor choice of words for instructing people. If I were to guess I would say they want to know how it affects (different word now) the story and the themes of the story. Any speculations about affecting the reader is going to be tough to substantiate in any real way, and I don't think they want a laundry list of symbolism by itself.
Also you might want to brush up on the difference between the words effect and affect—they are different and have different usage. Generally speaking you can affect something (verb) to produce an effect (noun). Effect can also be a verb but it means something different (to bring about, e.g. I can effect change, or bring about change). So everywhere you wrote "how it effects the story," etc. with it as a verb, should be affects. Just a note so your teacher doesn't ding you. --24.147.86.187 (talk) 00:36, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Continuing on this tangent -- "affect" can also be a noun, as in seasonal affective disorder. It means, approximately, "emotion". I'm not sure whether psychologists use it instead of "emotion" simply to avoid provoking, well, emotional responses, or whether there's some technical difference. --Trovatore 18:29, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
We see affect and effect so often mixed up these days, even by teachers and newspapers, that I'm sure in time they'll be accepted as alternative spellings. I certainly don't support this, but I can see it happening nonetheless. -- JackofOz 21:49, 30 November 2007 (UTC)