Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2006 November 5

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[edit] November 5

[edit] Poppy?

I watched a video link on CNN.com just now about some child porn arrests that were made in Canada. A couple of the people in the video had a red circle (flower?) with a black center on their lapels. Is this some sort of symbol for the fight against child pornography or its awareness? Or does it have some sort of Canadian symbolism? Dismas|(talk) 01:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The poppy is a symbol of remembrance that's worn on and a couple weeks before Remembrance Day (equivalent to the U.S.'s Veterans Day). Its symbolism stems from the poem In Flanders Fields. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 01:10, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I knew that.... Hadn't thought about the date... Thanks, Dismas|(talk) 01:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
You mean, Americans don't wear poppies for Remembrance Day (or Veterans Day)? --Bowlhover 03:45, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
No, we don't. If we wear anything it would be American flag lapel pins. StuRat 06:06, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Not true at all. The VFW and American Legion sell poppy lapel pins before both Memorial Day and Veterans' Day. User:Zoe|(talk) 21:10, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
BTW, it's a little misleading to equate Veterans' Day and Remembrance Day. True, they're on the same day, and presumably for the same reason (the armistice in WWI). But the emphasis on Remembrance Day is on hono(u)ring the war dead, which makes it more like Memorial Day. --Trovatore 08:00, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Shows how much I know about the US. What I do know is Canada. Remembrance day seems heavily emphasised up here, hence you won't find any media people without a poppy two weeks (or more) before November 11. Remembrance day ceremonies always seem to be well attended too. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 08:08, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


I really don't think that you are correct; rememberance sunday is about the living, not just the dead. You won't attend a rememberance sunday service without hearing the words 'remember the dead; don't forget the living'. Where do you think all the money from the selling of poppies goes? BTW what is veterans' day about? is it the same or different? MHDIV Englishnerd 13:23, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
The sense I got when living in Canada was that the emphasis of Remembrance Day (what's "Remembrance Sunday"? never heard of that) was on those who had died in wartime military service. In the States they are specifically remembered on Memorial Day. Veterans' Day tends to be for parades by veterans' groups, which seems to emphasize the living.
Really, though, neither day is very deeply felt in the States. Memorial Day in practice tends to be more important as the unofficial "start of summer", kind of like two-four in Canada. --Trovatore 18:34, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
See Remembrance Day and Remembrance Sunday. As usual, we have articles about them. -- Arwel (talk) 10:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't think Remembrance Day is "deeply felt" by most people in Canada either -- although obviously it is for some, and I don't mean to demean them in any way. Some people get a day off work, but most don't; many people do nothing more than wear a poppy, and many more don't even do that.
One possibly interesting bit of trivia: the preferred time for Remembrance Day ceremonies in Canada is 11 AM. This copies British practice and commemorates the time the Armistice took effect on November 11, 1918 — in the time zone then used in France as well as Britain, but not, of course, in Canada. (Nor in Germany, where it was noon.) The fact that it was "the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month" was a pure coincidence; the Armistice actually specified a 6-hour delay before fighting would end, the final negotiations finished a little after 5 AM French time, and they decided that since the time was critical, it was best to rounded off to 5:00 to minimize confusion.
--Anonymous, the 21st hour (British time, rounded to minimize confusion) of the 5th day of the 11th month.
I think the wearing of poppies around 11/11 is somewhat macabre. People wear poppies because of the poem; poppies are mentioned in the poem because they grow on top of dead people. Isn't that a little on the creepy side? -- Mwalcoff 21:44, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
It may seem a bit wierd for an American, but it's just a coustom to wear the poppies from a couple of weeks before rememberance sunday; it is a sign of new life springing up from death, if you see pictures of flander's field or any other poppy-supporting ex-battle grounds, you will understand the touching significance of them. And they raise a lot of money for the Royal British Legion! Englishnerd 22:35, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
You don't have Remembrance Day on the 11th, always? (I ask because you say "Remembrance Sunday" and not "Remembrance Day" - it's always on the 11th in Canada). --Charlene 01:06, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
But were the poppies that John McCrae saw at Flanders there before people were buried? He wrote the poem in 1915 only 10 months after the start of WWI. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 05:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Rememberance day is always on the 11th, we ahve a 2 minute silence at 11 o'clock. But all memorial services at war memorials and Churches are held on the second sunday of November, whether that falls before, on are after the 11th. Englishnerd 18:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Programmes they used to show us at school emphasised that the poppy thing wasn't just from the poem. Poppies were prolific in the churned-up battle fields and the programmes said they were sometimes included in letters to the family of the deceased. Hence both the soldiers, who saw the fields, and the families, who got poppies in their letters, associated them with the fallen. Anyone confirm/deny? Skittle 21:07, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Roseanne being 80s

Does Roseanne count as an 80s show?

Roseanne aired from October 18, 1988 to May 20, 1997. You decide. ×Meegs 01:48, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I would certainly say it's an 80s show and a 90s show, considering it aired in both decades. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 02:00, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removing Caffeine From Coffee Beans

How can you remove the caffeine from green coffee beans? I read of a swiss treatment of putting them in hot water but when I did that and left it overnight I was just left with murky colored water, was the caffeine and flavors in the water, possibly and that is what changed the color?

Unsigned, but merged by --frothT C 03:38, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Swiss Water Process (SWP). SweetMarias, a great coffee resource, describes it here. They are not impressed. --Justanother 04:28, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

How does it become caffeine powder and is it the powder they use in sodas?

I assume they evaporate out the water to make a powder. I know that it is indeed used to provide the caffeine in colas and many energy drinks. Skittle 21:01, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] population of the living compared to the dead

Laurie Anderson says that we passed the moment sometime in the early fifties when there were more people alive than dead. I was shocked to hear this. My friend however says that there can never have been more dead than alive, because he reasons if you start with 2 and then get 4 and so forth it grows so fast that....well, what do you think? Are there more now? and how can we figure it out?

Yes, I agree, it's not possible. I believe the estimate is that somewhere around 7% of the people who have every lived are currently alive and 93% are dead. StuRat 04:14, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
This has been asked so many times, including Sept. 27 (in the Science category). Rough estimates put the total number of people who ever lived at somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 billion. So there are more dead than alive. Clarityfiend 05:18, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
This is barely worth adding, but hey what are the referenced-desks for...I recall reading somewhere that half the people who every lived are alive. Looking at the world population page this doesn't seem particularly likely - their historic graph shows world population at 6bn now with estimates for the past.
Simplistically speaking if we took the population at the start of each AD century (which is very generous) and add them together we get something like 7.5bn - you could no doubt very safely double that (since live spans are nowhere near 100 years). I think, therefore, that maybe anywhere up to 20% of the population of mankind is alive, but that would be a very very rough guess. Good question though ny156uk 11:28, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Snopes is your friend.--Shantavira 14:04, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not a Cat

There is a game you play where you have to get people to mention things without using key words associated with them (forget the name, taboo or articulate or something). Anyhoo the question was this" If I were trying to get people to say 'dog' I would probably say "not a cat" and people will regularly say "dog" as if they are the opposite of each other (if you said "not hot" people would assume 'cold'). Is there a specific term for things that become associated as opposites but are actually not?

Silly Sunday question I know but hey ho. ny156uk 11:44, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The term is "association" or "word association", and our minds make those associations for many reasons. A common reason is that they are often used in phrases together (men and women, salt and pepper, etc). Opposites like hot and cold are a small subset of the larger universe of associations for all reasons. A term for commonly associated opposites is antonyms. alteripse 11:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually a similar question was asked a few months ago on RD. Apparently there is a specific word for "this and that" pairs that are almost an entity unto themselves; don't remember what it is offhand but I'll take a look. Anchoress 12:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I believe the name is Taboo (game). StuRat 20:59, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

That's the name of the game, but he's asking for the term that's the basis of Taboo. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 23:31, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Interesting notion that cats and dogs are somehow opposites. In many modern-day households they are often found together. JackofOz 00:46, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Interesting notion that males and females are somehow opposites. In many modern-day households they are often found together. Sorry, I had to. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 02:12, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Talent does what it can, genius does what it must (Oscar Wilde). Congrats, wirbelwind, you're now officially a genius. JackofOz 02:00, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Saturday and Sunday

How can we be sure that the Sunday of the Gregorian calendar is the same as the original Lord's Day, or that the Saturday was the original Sabbath, as mentioned in Genesis and/or celebrated by early synagogues? Maybe what was Saturday then is now Wednesday. NeonMerlin 14:00, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, my opinion. Weeks are artifical divisions, not even related to something in nature like month is an approximation of moon phase (though some speculate it may have been noted as a 1/4 of the moon phase). But likely, and certainly for our purposes, week is Biblical as the six days of creation plus the day of cessation (God obviously not needing to "rest"). So to be "correct" in the sense of your question, we would have to have continuity of recording weeks back to creation. Obviously that is impossible. No, I think the Lord's Day would simply be taken to be the first day (Sunday) of whatever system of dating weeks is being used and the Sabbath is the last day (Saturday) (see Week#Liturgical week) and that would be entirely correct. In other words, their position is relative to your week, not to some fixed point in time. --Justanother 14:55, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
  • From the article you link to "The last day of the Julian calendar was Thursday 4 October 1582 and this was followed by the first day of the Gregorian calendar, Friday 15 October 1582". Given that 10 days were taken out of the calendar, and the 15th of October would have been a Monday if not for the deletion, then you're quite correct and it's all a bit of a farce as far as the correlation of days to dates are concerned. I suppose they would argue that since the continuity of the days was not altered then it is all still correct, i.e., regardless of the deletion of 10 days there was never a period were there were more than 7 days from say one Saturday to the next. On a side note, I've heard it said that many people of the time were outraged about losing 10 days out of their lives (presumably especially those whose birthdays fell in that 10 day period!). --jjron 15:04, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe that side note is something of an urban myth. What people weren't happy about was paying a year's tax, rent, etc whilst only being paid for the days or hours that they worked.--Shantavira 17:57, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
When the British Empire converted to Gregorian (in 1752, Wednesday, September 2 O.S., was followed by Thursday, September 14 N.S.), the law was specifically framed so as to prevent that sort of abuse by requiring payments to be made based on "natural days": for example, a monthly payment that had been on the 1st of the month was to change to the 12th. However, I have no idea whether it was actually followed in practice. --Anonymous, 21:15 UTC, November 5, 2006, N.S.
It seems likely to me that the integrity of the 7-day week is intact, at least since the time of Jesus. The seven-day week was used by nearly all Mediterranean peoples and would have been maintained both by government officials and ordinary villagers during the time of the Roman Empire. Thereafter, despite the chaos of barbarian invasions, the Christain Church in Rome and Constantinople and parish churches across Europe would have maintained the seven-day week right down to modern times. Marco polo 23:56, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree with that. The dates (eg. 9th February, 13th April etc) may have changed due to changes to the calendar, but the 7-day cycle of the days of the week has never to my knowledge been interrupted. Except for one specific case, whose details escape me for the moment, where a Friday was followed by another Friday. It had something to do with an adjustment to the International Date Line, not to the calendar as such. JackofOz 00:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Ooo, I was just reading about that somewhere. Wasn't it when Alaska went from being Russian to being part of the US? Or have I made that up? Skittle 17:57, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
From Alaska: "Russia still used the Julian Calendar in 1867, and the world had not yet been divided into standard time zones; thus, there was no international date line, and the day began in the morning instead of starting at midnight. So, while the American day now ends with sunset in western Alaska, the Russian day then started with sunrise in "eastern" Alaska. Thus, Friday, October 6, 1867, the day before the physical transfer of ownership, was followed by Friday, October 18, 1867—which was Saturday, October 7, 1867 in Russia. The change in date was due to America bringing the Gregorian Calendar to Alaska, while the lack of change in day resulted from Alaska's shift from being the starting point of the Russian day to being the ending point of the American day." Skittle 17:59, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
That's the one. Well done, Skittle. JackofOz 02:03, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Other places that have jumped to the other side of the date line include the Philippines, Kwajalein, and most of Kiribati. --Anonymous, 02:20 UTC, Nov. 8.

Okay, so is there anything in the Bible to stop a church or synagogue from holding its services on Wednesdays if that was worked best for its members, assuming that wasn't regulated by a pope or archbishop? NeonMerlin 04:07, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

You are not paying attention. The seven-day day-of-the-week cycle has been continuously observed for thousands of years. It is the dates that were altered.
If you want to start your own Church ("The Fourth Day Adventists") and run services on Wednesday, go ahead. But don't expect the Pope to start celebtrating Masses on Thursday afternoons so that Catholics can sleep late and still get in a round of golf on Sundays. B00P 07:23, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] black thingy on aircraft

what's this black thing warpped about the hull?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Astor_SentinelR1.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Global_Express

The Bombardier Global Express article points to Raytheon Sentinel. Weregerbil 15:43, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Fairings for radar and other communications equipment, I do believe. Kinda like the disk on the AWACS radome, though that's a rotating thing. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 15:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
The appearance of it being wrapped is an illusion, I am sure. There is probably a pod on the top and another larger one on the bottom, nothing wrapped. --Justanother 16:09, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
The Erieye (here seen mounted on a Saab aircraft, I think) by Ericsson is another example. It contains an array antenna with many elements. You can choose the angle in which the radar is looking by operate the elements in proper phase to each other. (Makes for a faster sweep than if done mechanically.) —Bromskloss 17:12, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Air Canada strike of 1969

I am trying to confirm the beginning date and end date of the Air Canada strike that occured in 1969. I am unsure what part/union/workers/locations were striking but I know that it grounded all flights in/out of Toronto Pearson International Airport. I look forward to your responses, josephine

Well if nobody answers your question, you can just ask them. Anchoress 16:13, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
This link [1] says it began at the end of April, 1969, and was a strike by mechanics and other ground service personnel. I can't find anything online that says when the strike ended. The union might be able to advise you - try IAMAW District 78 in suburban Toronto at this page [2]. --Charlene 00:57, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
The journal The Muse Project [[3]] available through library login, lists it as a four month strike. CMacMillan 05:31, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] sat. night live school of filmaking

from

http://www.wpxi.com/entertainment/10227262/detail.html#

"Borat" can hardly be compared to the "Saturday Night Live" school of filmmaking. This is not a feeble attempt to stretch a 3-minute skit into a 90-minute movie. It is much bigger than a one-joke movie.

what are some examples of the SNL movie genre?

--Anchoress 17:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I would disagree "SNL movie genre" is a genre. What exactly defines this genre? Movies based on SNL sketches? Movies with actors who were on SNL? Putting those two criteria for a genre aside, what else defines the genre? I think, at best, you can say all these movies are in the comedy genre with a similar style of humor. —Mitaphane talk 18:34, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Isn't it defined above? A whole movie based on a 3-minute skit? That seems pretty clear. Anchoress 18:40, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
If that's the definition, I'd say that's a bit of a strech for a genre, especially one called the "SNL movie genre". I'm pretty sure SNL hasn't been the first to take a comedy sketch routine and expand it into a feature movie. Would Office Space fall under that genre? It was based on short series of sketches called Milton that ran on SNL.—Mitaphane talk 18:50, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Well a) if you have a problem with the definition, you should take it up with the person who wrote the article. And b), maybe that movie fits, I don't know. Anchoress 19:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Three-minute skit? --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 18:34, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't see anything inherently bad about taking a sketch and stretching into a movie or TV series, it's all in the execution that makes it a success or failure. For example, The Simpsons started as a small animated sketch on The Tracey Ullman Show and The Honeymooners started as a sketch on The Jackie Gleason Show. StuRat 20:23, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Saddam's Sentence too harsh?

Moved to talk:Saddam Hussein Deleted per WP:NOT. Wikipedia is not a chat room or blog. -- Jim Douglas (talk) (contribs) 00:06, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Oooo! Thats bold--Light current 02:02, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I did tell you light current, that talk page is for discussion of the article, I dont know what your respons was though as it has now been deleted. Philc TECI 18:36, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Interstate Highway Exits Project

Roman Soiko I want to start a massive project which objective is to enumerate every interstate highway exit in the country, in the style of communter rail networks that are already expounded upon by this site.

I can use of course, Mapquest to find the exits, but how do I go about the editing phase of this project?

My immediate reaction is, why is this needed? Dismas|(talk) 19:07, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I also have to wonder, with the huge holes that exist in Wikipedia, and the articles that desperately need expanding and rewriting, is this energy not better spent in other areas? However, if you want to do it, I guess you will. However...--Filll 19:35, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

See Portal:U.S. Roads. User:Zoe|(talk) 21:20, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Many of our interstate highway articles have exit lists already. See Interstate 95 in Massachusetts for an example, and Massachusetts Route 128 for a more detailed example. —Steve Summit (talk) 23:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

How a project to create an article for every slightly moldy object in the back of the refrigerator,every pothole in a street, every crack in a sidewalk, every unmatched sock and similar important and interesting topics? Edison 00:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, one way to look at it is not how universally interesting a topic is, but how likely it is to be interesting to somebody. Now, Britney Spears is (to judge by the google search statistics) interesting to just about everyone, while those moldy objects in the back of your refrigerator are probably interesting to no one. But what about the highway exit numbers? Well, the reason I know about the Massachusetts Route 128 article is that a little while ago I needed to find some information about those exits, and I was pleased to find it here. (I was also pleased to correct one or two errors in the exit number table.) De gustibus non disputandum est. —Steve Summit (talk) 02:32, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] advantages/disadvantages of rechargeable batteries

86.144.154.112 20:07, 5 November 2006 (UTC)mandielou

See Rechargeable battery. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:09, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
If you want a comparison between single use batteries and rechargables, one only needs to look at the devices that use them. Look at all the devices that have rechargable batteries(laptops, cell phones, PDA's, etc) vs those that typically don't(remote controls, clocks, portable CD player, etc.). I think you'll see a pattern; single use batteries are often used for devices that don't consume much power so that it's worth getting new single use batteries that won't lose its charge over time (as rechargables do); and rechargable batteries are used for higher power devices that would be expensive to replace all the time. Regardless of that, as far as time/convenience (cost I'm not sure of) goes, I think rechargables would win in almost every comparison (unless someone thinks it requires less effort to drive to a store to buy new batteries compared with popping old batteries in a charger). —Mitaphane talk 21:20, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Maori Scenery

Hi, Im doing some work on some new zealand scenery and i recall a Old legend of a Giant chief that fell in love with this Maori woman and he died through trying to eat his way through a Hillside Can someone help me with this?

You'd be referring to The Legend of Te Mata o Rongokako recounted around Havelock North, New Zealand [4] [5] Rockpocket 20:49, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
The photo in link [7] above shows the hill very well - the head is to the left. Lisiate 21:12, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
There is also a more detailed recounting of the legend here. Rockpocket 21:36, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
You asked the same question here on October 15.  --LambiamTalk 21:38, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plagiarism

Two of your Wikipedia articles were plagiarised from the website planetmadtv.com. The articles that I know of are about Bryan Callen and Mo Collins. There could be others but I haven't seen them. Please remove these articles or re-word them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Startist (talk • contribs) .

What part is even plagiarized? That site looks like it's just a news blog with mostly quotes. I can't even find the bios for the two above. Can you point to the specific page involved? Or are you just trolling? --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 23:26, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's the Bryan Callen page http://planetmadtv.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2617 and here's the Mo Collins page http://planetmadtv.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2618. Notice at the bottom of those biographies, there is credit given to the members who wrote them.

Thanks for telling us! I'll admit I can't fix it now, but somebody else should pretty soon. X [Mac Davis] (SUPERDESK|Help me improve) 04:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for fixing it.

[edit] Removing crankshaft bolt

My dad is trying to remove the crankshaft pulley bolt on his Honda Accord to replace the crankshaft seal, but it's stuck on there so tight that when he turns it with a 3' length of pipe on the end of a wrench (with the transmission in Fifth and me standing on the brake), the clutch slips and the bolt doesn't loosen; penetrating oil, a propane torch, and constant hammering have done nothing to change this. Any ideas on how to get the thing off without buying an expensive crankshaft immobilizer or going to the shop? 65.87.184.11 21:56, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

His WHAT oil ? StuRat 22:07, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Er, I think you got caught by vandalism that was not part of the original question: [6] FreplySpang 22:12, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Try an impact wrench. You might be able to borrow one, if you don't already own one. StuRat 22:08, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, soaking the bolts in gasoline (petrol) may loosen rust, if that's the problem. StuRat 22:12, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey StuRat, would a mild acid (like vinegar) work? I use it to remove rust from my "Iron Chef" butcher knife. I love that show. I also am dumb.Anchoress 22:22, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Maybe, but if the vinegar makesiehe rust "puff up", it could actually make it worse, because the rust is between the nut and bolt, with no way to get it out. Gasoline has the property of being drawn into tight spaces by capillary action, which tends to pull small particles of rust along with it. Also, gasoline typically contains lubricants (lead in the old days, then MTBE, not sure what they use now) and detergents, for dealing with corrosion in car engines. StuRat 23:17, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Have you tried an ultrasonic spanner yet? That may work. Also, he could try simulating an impact wrench by hitting the spanner handle with a dirty great hammer! This will act against the moment of inertia of the system and hopefully free the nut. Also could try soaking the whole nut with WD40 if not already tried.--Light current 22:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Before StuRat so rudely interjected I was onside with the penetrating oil, otherwise known as gas-oil. It is by far superior to WD40 and leaves gasoline (Petrol) in the shade. But it does take a little while to actually penatrate the seized joint (open to you StuRat). But if all else fails, I am afraid the workshop with its specialised tools (and prices) is the answer.
Read the post again, he already tried penetrating oil. StuRat 02:10, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I rememer working somewhere, wher we had to replace the dessicant balls in a steel vessel. THe 2" dia plug had, of course, rusted in with all the moisture it had been exposed to. A 36" Stilson wrench would not budge it. So the boss of the operation decided to take charge. His solution? A Twelve foot steel scaffolding pole attached to the end of the wrench and four people swinging on the end. It worked! Torque about a bit of a wrench!--Light current 01:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
OP, been there, done that. The problem is you cannot get enough torque on it if the clutch is slipping. You either have to pull enough crap out of the way to get an impact socket on it (radiator, AC condensor, etc.) or you have to stop the engine from turning. Ideally, you can get to the ring gear and jam it (or the clutch pressure plate) with a large screwdriver. Maybe there is a access cover on the bottom of the bell housing. Otherwise, pull the starter. I have also (carefully) jammed an engine using the cam chain. Not so good if you have a belt and dangerous in either case. Good luck, you are on the right track. --Justanother 02:01, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Before you do anything else, make sure that you're turning it in the correct direction. Might it have right-hand threads? Bunthorne 02:55, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
(of course, I meant left-hand, but my heart was in the right place) Bunthorne 05:02, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Yeah LOL. Thats a good point!--Light current 03:01, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, no matter how dexterous your hands are, turning the tool the wrong way can still be a sinister problem. StuRat 06:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Hey, did you hear about the two wheels that were torquing? But only for a moment. Haven't used that one since, never mind when. --Justanother 06:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I think that this particular bolt requires a huge amount of torque to tighten or to remove and that you need to use a power tool, at least to get it back in properly. If it is not tightened with sufficient torque, the vibration from your engine will allow it to loosen, your cranshaft pulley could be destroyed (this happened to me), and your engine could even fall off your frame! Replacing this bolt is very tricky, and I would bring it into a shop or at least rent the proper tools. Marco polo 15:47, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Update: (note - that was me who posted the question, I didn't realize I wasn't logged in) - he tried an impact wrench and it didn't help, and in continuing to use the pipe he managed to permanently twist a half-inch-thick forged-steel Craftsman breaker bar 45 degrees. Now he's just going to take it to the shop and have them remove it with a wrench, then put it back in just tight enough to drive home and work on. Do you think a power wrench is really necessary to reinsert it, or would by hand with a 3-foot moment arm be sufficient? Just how much torque is needed for safety? ~~ N (t/c) 00:23, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

If you read the service manual, there may actually be a torque specification, in which case you can use a torque wrench to get precisely the fit specified. StuRat 17:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Looking for a type of program...

I was wondering if anyone could help me find a program. I would like it to take input from a QWERTY keyboard and then place a recording into another sound file at the time I press the key. Like a recorder that will replace my keypresses with other recordings. Ideally this program should automatically pitch-shift any recordings that are played so that all tones and semitones you can normally get would be played. I did find something like this on SourceForge, but I can't remember what it was called and it didn't seem to work anyway. Oh, by the way, the program must be free (gratis or libre, I don't care, as long as no money is involved). Thanks very much. Oh, even telling me what this type of program is called or something like that would be a great help. Thanks again. --80.229.152.246 22:14, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

"Sampler playback" (the ability to assign any sample to any key) Seems to be the name of the thing I'm looking for. I just found a program on SourceForge that should do the trick. I'll leave the question just in case it doesn't work.
Gratis and libre is a trivial distinction in this case. I'd encourage you to write it yourself, it seems like a simple enough problem. --frothT C 04:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I was going to if no one could come up with something that has already been done. I've found a few programs on SourceForge but they don't seem to work very well. What language do you think I should write it in (Python/C/Visual Basic/Other that I don't know)? I think I might write it in something really obscure, just to be different. Thanks for your help. --80.229.152.246 17:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I have found a program that does what I want. If anyone else is interested, take a gander at [7]. Seems to work quite well. Oh, a little tip, don't set the sample keys to numbers on the NumPad, it doesn't seem to like that. --80.229.152.246 17:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)