Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 May 28

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[edit] May 28

[edit] Translation from German to English

I would be very grateful if a user could please translate into English the following extract from a marriage registration:

Col 3 - Ort, wo die Trauung vollzogen wurde: II, Tempelg.[asse 3]. im Gemeindetempel Col 4 - Angabe der beigebrachten Zeugnisse und Documente: Ehe-Einwilligung der mj. [minderjהhrigen] Braut von ihrem Vater Wien, 14. Feber 1887; Ehe-Licenz der Braut Ministerium Budapest, den 26.2.1887 Z. 8465

Thank you. Simonschaim (talk) 04:33, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Don't know about "Col" it may be an old form. The German word for column would be "Spalte". You'll have to see if someone else knows or leave it.
Col 3 - Site of the ceremony: II, Tempelgasse 3, in the parish/community temple Col 4 - Record of the certificates and documents submitted: father's parental consent to the wedding for the underage bride, Vienna, February 14, 1887, marriage license of/for the bride Budapest ministry, Feb. 26, 1887 record number 8465
(The expressions / are alternatives, since I don't know enough of the facts to be sure). Hope this helps. --Lisa4edit (talk) 05:00, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
"Kolumne" (in 19th century spelling also "Columne") can also be used for a column on a printed page, just like "Spalte". "Parish" isn't usually in English to refer to Jewish congregations. I'd say "community temple" or "congregation temple". I'd say "bride's marriage license" for "Ehe-Licenz der Braut". —Angr 05:25, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. Simonschaim (talk) 04:30, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


I found the following: Col 3 - Place, where the wedding was carried out: II, Tempelg. [asse 3]. in the municipality temple Col 4 - indication of the taught certifications and Documente: Marriage consent mj. [minderj ה hrigen] bride of its father Vienna, 14. Feber 1887; Marriage Licenz of the bride Ministry Budapest, 26.2.1887 Z. 8465 Hope this helps............Katrina —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.83.40.36 (talk) 18:02, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

That's rather very "literal" (if not to say machine translation :-( ). Angr's correction of my original attempt is as good as we'll get, I think. --71.236.23.111 (talk) 00:15, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the additional answers. I was on holiday and have only seen them now. Simonschaim (talk) 08:11, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] El resto de/The rest of/La reste de

Is there a Latin cognate for the phrase "the rest of," which appears in English, Spanish, and French (at least)? Theshibboleth (talk) 05:02, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

One possibility is reliquus/a/um, which is the root of the English "relic", as it was also used for the remains of a dead body (holy or not). Another possibility, which requires a different construction than "the rest of" in English but has a similar meaning, is "huiusmodi" (or separated as "huius modi") which means "of this sort"; you could have a bunch of nouns, "et huiusmodi". I guess the actual cognate would be "restare", which turned into Old French and Modern French "rester" ("rest" as in relaxation is a completely different Germanic word). But "restare" apparently doesn't have a past participle to use as a noun. Adam Bishop (talk) 05:24, 28 May 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.210.170.49 (talk)
So does that mean a phrase like "the rest of" may have existed in Latin that is cognate to the word rest also? Theshibboleth (talk) 05:40, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, sort of - but you would have to use "restare" with some other nouns, since there is no noun that can be made from "restare". So if you want to stay "the rest of the books", for example, you can say "reliqui libri", or "libri qui restant" ("the books that remain"). Adam Bishop (talk) 05:59, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Could the present participle be used (like restans/restantia)?  --Lambiam 06:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, there is one example of the present participle being used like that by Vergil in Lewis and Short, but otherwise all the examples are finite verbs. Adam Bishop (talk) 06:23, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
A little online searching turned up a passage in Ammianus Marcellinus: "hactenus super Alpibus. nunc ad restantia veniamus" (second passage here). So restantia could clearly be used to mean "the rest," but I'm not sure whether it was ever used (with the genitive?) in a construction corresponding to "the rest of …"
The Medieval Latin Word List from British and Irish Sources contains an entry for a noun resta (or restum) with the meaning "remainder, residue," but that may be a formation based on the vernacular rather than a direct development from restare. Deor (talk) 13:15, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
My little dictionary (Collins Gem) translates both residue and rest with reliqua pars. —Tamfang (talk) 02:32, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] burrstone

In the book it is written that "the soil consists of burrstone pebbles". I learned that synonim to the word "burrstone" is "buhrstone" of which millstones are made. But I can't translate it into Russian as there is no such geological term (I presume)in Russian language. Is there any other name of burrstone in English to approach the term to Russian and find in in the dictionary? Thank you.--88.84.200.1 (talk) 10:02, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Petrologically speaking, "buhrstone" (the usual spelling, it seems) can refer to many different types of rock, all suitable for the making of millstones. With this in mind, we can call any of these rocks "millstone" as well, according to the Dictionary of Mining, Mineral, and Related Terms. So, it would be all right to write "the soil consists of millstone pebbles" in English, and I suppose that if Russian also refers to any type of rock that makes good millstones as "millstone", we're in business. --Milkbreath (talk) 10:40, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Or maybe you can find something that says "a rough hard quartz rock" in Russian. --71.236.23.111 (talk) 10:45, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I've never heard of the word "buhrstone" before, but it does appear in my Russian dictionary as жёрнов, which does in fact mean "millstone". Macnas (talk) 09:44, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Doe? What does 'does mean here? If it is a misspell of what word?

Russia should ‘’show greater tolerance doe political dissent, and none for immunity on human rights abuses in Chechnya.” (from cnn.com) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.168.3.246 (talk) 12:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a link? Fribbler (talk) 12:40, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Looks like a typo - F and R are right beside D and E, someone's left hand must not have been aligned with the keyboard properly. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, it was not CNN but the NYTimes. here is the link. "for" sounds plausible.217.168.3.246 (talk) 13:02, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Just to put this to bed: here is the original Amnesty International source with "for" in place of "doe". Fribbler (talk) 13:16, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
That raises another question: how can someone misspell a citation? Wouldn't it be much logical to just copy and paste it? 217.168.3.246 (talk) 14:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) I'd reckon they were working form a print version of either the press release, or the full report, since as you pointed out, a copy-and-paste from another electronic source couldn't result in a typo. Fribbler (talk) 14:25, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
What I find disturbing is that the New York Times is using a spellchecker instead of an editor. That would never have gotten past a human being. --Milkbreath (talk) 15:44, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Lots of publishers think they don't need to hire proofreaders anymore since spellcheckers were invented. —Angr 17:22, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
And even a person writing their very first professional piece, or an examination piece, knows not to rely totally on spell checkers. They're useful, but only up to a point. We see far more spelling errors appearing in print since the advent of spell checkers than was the case before. Publishers could not possibly not be aware of this, but many of them don't really seem to care. Progress has definitely been retrograde in this area. I lie awake at nights worrying about it. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:22, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Meanwhile: I have contacted the NYT and they have corrected the spell. 217.168.3.246 (talk) 19:07, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Subject headline

Hi there, which one is correct form:

  • Application for the position of "Part time job"
  • Application for the "Part time job" position

Thanks in advance--202.56.7.162 (talk) 16:51, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The second is better than the first, but it is correct only if it refers to a position advertised precisely as "Part time job". Otherwise, there should be no quotation marks, you need a hyphen to link the compound modifier, and you should eliminate "job", since "job" and "position" are synonymous and therefore redundant:
  • Application for the part-time position
Marco polo (talk) 17:26, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Are you sure you would not rather like to mention the job that you are applying for rather than the work hour conditions. To me this sounds as if you don't know or don't care what the job is as long as you can work part time. Unless they have openings for both a part time and a full time whatchmaydoer, just mentioning the job title would work better for me. --71.236.23.111 (talk) 22:03, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
[WINDOWS CONFLICT - interrupted by "Windows Update" restarting the computer, then giving me adverts in I.E. (I use Firefox) for black, canned coffee from UCC in Japan!] Anyway, "Application for the Part Time position of ..., as advertised in ... on ...," would be the way I would do it.--ChokinBako (talk) 02:54, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Needing substitute for trite cliché

While LOCE'ing an article, I came across the phrase "... a popular aftermarket addition to cars among the Beverly Hills rich and famous." If I'm not mistaken, "rich and famous" is an oft-used, banal phrase for the famous, high-income movie or television stars. Is there any more creative phrase to replace this...er...chestnut? --LaPianista! 17:34, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

"In-crowd" but I think that would possibly be even worse. --Lisa4edit (talk) 19:41, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
"among the chichi of Beverly Hills." "among Beverly Hills celebrities." "among the Beverly Hills nouveaux riches." Not knowing what it is makes it impossible to gauge the right amount of sneer to put into it. --Milkbreath (talk) 21:46, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
"The affluent few" would be a bit more neutral. It would also lose a lot of meaning for most users. --71.236.23.111 (talk) 22:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I think the original should stand. It's a well-known phrase, and Wikipedia's not supposed to be particularly a place for creative writing. (I thought there was something in the Manual of Style specifically saying that, even, but if there is, I can't find it.) --Anonymous, 23:55 UTC, May 28, 2008.
Glitterati is a nice, concise term.--Eriastrum (talk) 16:44, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone use that word seriously? —Tamfang (talk) 17:48, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Since it's a conflation of glitter and literati in connection with Hollywood, probably not since it's magazine-ese. Rich and famous is more exact that it first seems – is there anything between the rich and famous and the down-and-out in Beverly Hills? but it's still colloquial and not encyclopedic. I'd suggest the rich (who are probably famous anyway), "the wealthy" (at a pinch "the wealthy set") is more like "writing". Imo, it's a nice discipline, trying to avoid cliche, even in wikipedia. Julia Rossi (talk) 00:04, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
My ex grew up on (as she puts it) the wrong side of the tracks in Beverly Hills; the part that's not hills is middle-class. —Tamfang (talk) 01:46, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
And I forgot this one, the "élite". Julia Rossi (talk) 00:05, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Jianhe River

Our Tangjiashan Lake lists this as the name of the river causing the lake. It isn't on our List of rivers of China and as far as I can tell it translates to "river river" river. Do we have something wrong here? Rmhermen (talk) 20:59, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi. If I remember correctly, "Jianghe" river would be "river-river" river, but I don't think the same is true for "Jianhe". Also, if the ending already has "he" (river), I don't see why should add another "river" to the end. Also, if I remember correctly, "Jiang" is often used for larger rivers, such as the Chang Jiang. Thanks. ~AH1(TCU) 22:12, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
CNN had Jinahe but some German sites only had "Jian" river. The whole thing reminds me of a Discworld novel where they had mountains called "another mountain" and "who's this idiot who doesn't know what a mountain is" in the local language, due to the fact that visiting cartographers had pointed at a geographic feature and ask a local guide what it was called :-)--71.236.23.111 (talk) 23:21, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
It's closer to Hillhillhill Hill. Algebraist 23:27, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
The translation on this bulletin ([1]) board says that it is 剑河, 建河 and 涧河 in different posts. The 'he' is 'river', and the 'jian' means 'sword', 'build' or 'mountain stream'. Rivers and mountains often get doubled nomenclature between Chinese and English translations (Tangjiashan lake means 'Tangjia mountain lake'唐家山湖). Steewi (talk) 00:28, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
It looks like the river involved is properly called 湔江. This name appears in this Baidu article on Beichuan Qiang Autonomous County where the barrier lake is located. You can also see the name in this Xinhua story about the lake. The name would be transliterated as Jian Jiang, but since Jiang here means river, you could call it the Jian River. --Cam (talk) 05:49, 29 May 2008 (UTC)