Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 May 1

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[edit] May 1

[edit] Words for counting days

Hi, in Korean, we have special words for counting the number of days. Korean numerals has

  1. 하나
  2. 둘
  3. 셋
  4. 넷
  5. 다섯
  6. 여섯
  7. 일곱
  8. 여덟
  9. 아홉
  10. 열

but you can't say *한 일 or *두 일, but you have to say the following instead.

  1. 하루
  2. 이틀
  3. 사흘
  4. 나흘
  5. 닷새
  6. 엿새
  7. 이레
  8. 여드레
  9. 아흐레
  10. 열흘

Are there any other languages which use something similar? As a side note, it's fine to say 일일, 이일, 삼일, 사일 using Sino-Korean numerals. --Kjoonlee 08:17, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, can you say 한 날, 두 날, 세 날? I can't determine whether they're wrong or not. --Kjoonlee 08:22, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Japanese is also a bit irregular, but much more transparent than Korean. (1 is hito, but the 1st is tuitati, thought to be from tuki "moon, month" and tati "standing"; most of the rest are based on a day-of-the-month suffix ka with only a few irregularities, such as huta ~ hutu-ka for 2 and hata ~ hatu-ka for 20. Then of course there are systems such as the Mayan, where you get day names that have nothing to do with numbers. Gotta go—I'm not finding anything else off hand. kwami (talk) 18:59, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Thought it should be noted the romanization used above is antiquated and very rarely used anymore. The much more common romanizations of those Japanese words are (in order): tsuitachi, tsuki, tachi, futa, futatsuka, hatachi. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 01:36, 2 May 2008 (UTC)


Not sure that this is exactly what you mean, since it is not for days; but in Irish, there are separate numbers to count people. Here is a page with an explanation: Irish morphology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_morphology#Numbers

Evangeline (talk) 08:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] negatively phrased questions in court

After reading the section on how to answer yes/no questions above I think I remember lawyers in the OJ Simpson trial being told to rephrase questions like "did you not return to the house", or "were you not there". Here in the UK lawyers seem to love this type of language, though I found a reference telling them not to use this type of phrase when interviewing children[1].

Are these type of phrases now disallowed in the USA (or in some states)?

Also, it seems to me that as well as children these phrases could be difficult for people with English as a second language, as illustrated by poster's difficulty in knowing how to answer them. Would it be a good idea to bar these phrases in the UK too? -- Q Chris (talk) 15:15, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Nah, in the UK we should just bar lawyers. Too much crime is being committed by kids on crack and they all go to young offenders' institutions until they are 18 when they 'suddenly become adults'. I say lock them and their parents up for life, and no need to ask 'did you' or 'did you not' because most of their crap is on CCTV anyway. Lock 'em away and lock 'em away forever!--ChokinBako (talk) 16:52, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
The above is not an answer to the querent´s posting, which had no connection with juvenile delinquency and / or drug related crime.
Chris has asked a question on the validity of a state attorney / defense council asking (ambiguous) negated questions, eg. "Did you not return to the premisses at X:30 PM ...?" where a simple answer of "Yes" / "No" may be interpreted differently by individual jurors. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 22:28, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Check out Leading question Lisa4edit (talk) 22:53, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Multilingual National Anthems?

In Canada, it's very common for the national anthem to be sung in both official languages – not two renditions of the same song, or one verse in one language and another verse in another, but a few lines in French and then in a few in English (or vice versa) until the single verse is finished. Is this unique in the world? Are there any other national anthems that are sung in this code-switching kind of way? WikiJedits (talk) 17:23, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

There isn't any binary switching in it, but the South African anthem switches between five of the eleven national languages (no switching back, however). Zain Ebrahim (talk) 17:38, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Zain! That's the kind of thing I was looking for – I notice the first verse is sung in two languages although the other verses are one language each. WikiJedits (talk) 13:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll just note another point about what the Jedi is talking about: the English and French versions of O Canada were written independently and the one is in no way a translation of the other. In fact, the English and French versions of the chorus say approximately opposite things. (We stand on guard for Canada; Canada stands on guard for us.) I wonder if other countries have that! I always thought it was more sensible before about 1980 when only the music was officially the anthem. --Anonymous Canadian, 23:27 UTC, May 1, 2008.

If the British National Anthem was sung in all of the languages of the people who live here, it would be in 254 languages, and would last far too long. All hail the country with the most ethnic diversity on the planet! We just sing it in English (those who actually know the words).--ChokinBako (talk) 23:36, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I suspect that Canada and the United States both have living in them people from all or most of the countries of the world. The UK is not unique in being diverse, nor is it even close to being the most ethnically diverse. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 01:39, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
The tricky thing is that London is possibly the most diverse city in the world (I've seen it reasonably claimed), but London is not The UK, despite media impressions to the contrary. 79.66.2.176 (talk) 05:02, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
I'd suspect that New York City is at least as diverse as London. Los Angeles would be right up there, too. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 06:03, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Hard to compare, since each page looks at demographics slightly differently. London claims 300 languages, and "more than 50 non-indigenous communities which have a population of more than 10,000". Foreign-born population is 31%. Los Angeles is "home to people from more than 140 countries speaking at least 224 different identified languages". New York is less specific, but mentions that 20.4% are foreign born. So London remains hot favourite for "most ethnically diverse city" so far. Gwinva (talk) 06:24, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
"According to a 2004 estimate, 20.4% of the population is foreign-born." In New York, according to our article. In London in 2006, 31% of the population was foreign born. I'd recommend reading the demographics sections of those articles; they're interesting. 79.66.2.176 (talk) 06:12, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
I think Toronto might be able to beat some if not all: 49 percent of the pop are foreign born, 43 percent are from a visible minority. nat.utoronto 06:39, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Demographics of Toronto would support this. Gwinva (talk) 06:57, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
As a matter of interest does Toronto have a problem with "extreme national" groups, like the BNP in London? I here a lot about racism in the UK, USA, and Australia but not much from Canada. -- Q Chris (talk) 07:57, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
What does any of this have to do with national anthems? Zain Ebrahim (talk) 11:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
In any city that size, there's bound to be some of that mindset, but I can't recall any notable or widespread incidences of that kind of thing. Labels such as "most multicultural" or "most diverse" are always going to be open for debate because there are so many ways to look at it. Matt Deres (talk) 13:56, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Also the New Zealand anthem has both English and Maori verses. --antilivedT | C | G 09:48, 4 May 2008 (UTC)