Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 May 16

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[edit] May 16

[edit] Correct Translation?

Sorry for the lengthy post. I tried to translate these two English paragraphs into Spanish, and I'm wondering how well I did. If I mistranslated, would you be so kind as to correct me? I really appreciate the help. Thanks.

[edit] Original English Text

In this photo is Myron and Natalia. Myron is a successful and handsome real estate agent and is 32 years old. Natalia is a 28 year old cocktail waitress and likes to garden. They are very happy because they just got married, and they are jumping because they are excited. It has been one day since they met. Myron just gave Natalia the beautiful flowers and they are having a magnificent day. Yesterday Myron didn't know Natalia, and had never met her. He had been on vacation for two weeks in Mexico. He was sick of work and decided to take a trip. On the last day, he met Natalia at the beach. Natalia was tanning when Myron tripped on her and broke his nose when he fell. She asked him if they could go on a date to make him feel better and because she thought he was sexy. Myron said yes, and they went to the casino for their date. Upon arriving at the casino, they both started to drink. Next, they played poker and won some money. They weren't thinking well, and decided they needed to get married to each other. Then they went to the beach to get married and celebrate. Afterwards, they lived together happily forever (todos los dias is fine for that part of the sentence).

[edit] Spanish Translation

En esta foto es Myron y Natalia. Myron es un agente de bienes raíces exitoso y guapo. Él tiene treinta y dos años. Natalia tiene veinte y ocho años, y ella es una camarera de cóctel y le gusta ajardinar. Ellos están muy alegres porque acaban de casarse, y están saltando porque están entusiasmados. Hace un día que ellos conocen. Myron acaba de darle a Natalia unas flores bonitas y ellos están teniendo un día magnífico. Ayer Myron no sabía a Natalia, y nunca conoció a ella. Él hizo un viaje para dos semanas en México. Él estaba enfermo de trabajo y decidió tomar una vacación. En el último día, se reunió con Natalia en la playa. Natalia tomaba el sol cuando Myron tropezó con ella y se rompió la nariz cuando se cayó. Natalia le preguntó si ellos podían ir en una cita que le pone a sentirse mejor y porque ella pensó que Myron era caliente. Myron dijo que sí, y ellos fueron al casino para su cita. Al llegar al casino, empezaron a beber. Próximo, se jugaron al póquer y ganaron algo dinero. No pensaban así, y decidieron que necesitan casarse. Ellos fueron a la playa para se casaron y celebraron. Después de ellos vivieron felizmente todos los días.

Muchas gracias. --71.117.36.101 (talk) 03:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A try

I give you my version. Please understand that some changes are merely matters of style, and don't necessarily mean a translation mistep. I have emphasized some mistakes in your Spanish text. Mind you: most people will understand what you are trying to say in spite of them.
En esta foto están Myron y Natalia. Myron es un agente de bienes raíces exitoso y guapo. Tiene treinta y dos años. Natalia tiene veintiocho años, es barman es camarera/trabaja en un bar y le gusta ajardinar/la jardinería. Ellos están muy contentos porque acaban de casarse, y están saltando de alegría. Hace un día que ellos se conocen. Myron acaba de darle a Natalia unas flores bonitas y están pasando un día magnífico.
Hasta ayer Myron no conocía a Natalia, y nunca la había visto con anterioridad. Natalia tomaba sol cuando Myron tropezó con ella y se rompió/lastimó la nariz al caerse de bruces. Natalia le preguntó si podían tener una cita, en parte para que él se sintiera mejor y en parte porque le atrajo Myron. Él le dijo que sí, y eligieron el casino para su cita. Al llegar al lugar, comenzaron a beber. Luego jugaron al póquer y ganaron algo de dinero. No estaban completamente en sus cabales, y decidieron que tenían que casarse. Fueron a la playa, se casaron allí y celebraron. Después vivieron felizmente todos los días/por siempre.
Pallida  Mors 05:01, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Natalia is initially described in English as a "cocktail waitress" (= serves beverages to patrons other than those seated at the bar). Does the Spanish word barman mean this as well as "bartender" (= pours and mixes drinks, stands behind the bar, serves to patrons seated at the bar), and is it used equally for male and female bartenders (and servers, if appropriate)? -- Deborahjay (talk) 08:42, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Oops! You're completely right! My fault. Barman in Spanish would mean barman, no more than that! I'll fix that above. By the way, as many loan words in Spanish, it normally has no gender inflection (although barwoman will be understood by most speakers). Cheers Pallida  Mors 14:24, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I think your corrections are spot-on. The only other thing I would add is a correction for "Then they went to the beach to get married and celebrate": "Fueron a la playa para casarse y celebrar" (because that's not in past tense in the original). Also, "vivieron felices todos los días" means "they lived happily everyday", which sounds as awkward in English as in Spanish. So, it's much more preferable to say "Vivieron felices por siempre" (forever). Kreachure (talk) 15:20, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Pertinent comments, Kreachure. I left "todos los días" following the OP's suggestion, though I second your remark on its awkwardness. Pallida  Mors 16:03, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks a bunch guys! Really helpful. I appreciate it! 71.98.26.153 (talk) 23:24, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What part of the USA is this accent from

I believe this is a regional accent, but it may just be a technique of speaking or the result of some type of coaching; I have heard it in a few American TV actors such as Steven Culp and Boyd Matson. An example is the narration of the Wild Chronicles digital short Vultures of the Serengeti. Is it a Virginia accent? --Mathew5000 (talk) 04:42, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

No, it's definitely not a Virginia accent. It sounds more Midwest to me. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 05:05, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
In fact, I think that is Boyd Matson narrating the clip you indicated. He grew up in Texas (or at least was born there), but I suspect his travels working with National Geographic and other jobs has mellowed out the accent in such a way as to make it difficult to pin down. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 05:09, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
It is not a specific regional accent that I'm aware of. The "Vultures" clip guy sounds like he grew up backwoods Southern, but he smoothed his accent out for his job. Listen to the way he says "egg" two different ways, for instance. The first one is said with some stress and is close to "aig", and he tries a little harder the second time and almost produces the short "e", but not quite. He says "on" dead center General American. Usually. --Milkbreath (talk) 10:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
What is the dead-center General American pronunciation of "on"? As I understand it, there's disagreement among those who pronounce "cot" and "caught" differently regarding which of those two vowels is used in "on", quite apart from the fact that Texans often pronounce it "own". —Angr 19:06, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
It's at 2:48 in the "Vulture" clip. I'm just going by my ear and memory, but that "on" of his sounds incongruous with his twang. His accent is pleasant and clear, but it is not regional. --Milkbreath (talk) 19:22, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Personally I can detect very little accent in there. Which I guess means it's probably quite close to typical broadcast English. Friday (talk) 19:42, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
To me he sounds like he might me Southern or South Midland but has mostly learned to suppress his accent. His "on" at 2:48 didn't sound incongruous to me at all, but his "food" a few seconds later has a notably fronted vowel. It's somewhere between [fʉd] and [fyd]. —Angr 20:16, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Thank you everyone for the responses. I was curious because the slight twang makes the narrator sound warm and mellow but still authoritative. --Mathew5000 (talk) 01:03, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
South Midland? That's not a US region I'm aware of. Corvus cornixtalk 00:02, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] what's the meaning of the words as follows

Hi,guys.

Glad to know you here. I have a question to ask you ,anyone who kind enough to tell me ? thanks in advance!

one is "Demonym ", it is a word existed in the introuduction of our motherland--China. another one is "tildes", It is a word appeared in the "how to use wikipedia asking questions" I can't find the word in the dictionary and internet . please explain it to me ,thanks for your time .

B/R

Lucida —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peachloven (talk • contribs) 08:08, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi. For the first, see Demonym: "is a word that denotes the members of a people or the inhabitants of a place. In English, a demonym is often the same as the name of the people's native language: e.g., the "French" (people from France)". It is confusing; it is used by geographers but is not in any regular dictionaries. Perhaps that will change? Secondly, a "tilde" is this symbol: ~
It is a regular keyboard key, but differs in location. My laptop has it at the extreme right, above the #, and next to the return. My desktop keyboard has it extreme top left, next to the 1. Wikipedia notation uses the "~" as a keystroke shortcut. Five tildes ~~~~~ puts just the date like this 08:18, 16 May 2008 (UTC) . Four tildes ~~~~ signs your name, as I will do, now Gwinva (talk) 08:18, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


It is on my English laptop above the '#' but doesn't appear on my Japanese laptop. It can, however, be produced by SHIFT-0 (zero). ChokinBako (talk) 20:29, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is the only place I have ever seen the word 'demonym'. Benjamin Trovato (talk) 01:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Metastasised

Is metastasised a valid British variant of metastasized? ----Seans Potato Business 19:39, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

It gets 15600 google hits and has a google definition so if usage determines validity then yes. However, in both cases, google asks if you meant metastasized and the "z" gets 350000 google hits. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 21:03, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
According to this page, the Random House Unabridged Dictionary says the answer is yes. Anyone with access to the OED Online to confirm it from a British source? --Anonymous, 21:36 UTC, May 16, 2008.
The OED gives 'metastasize' and 'metastasizing' only. Algebraist 22:29, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
And so it would, if I read it aright. Under the entry for "-ize" it says that in the OED "the termination is uniformly written -ize." They give a long explanation for that that basically says that there is no overriding justification for -ise, so why not get off the fence. So the OED is useless for answering the question. My answer is "yes". --Milkbreath (talk) 23:23, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Oh, right. What spelling(s) do the quotations in the OED entry for the word use, then? --Anon, 02:25 UTC, May 17, 2008.
Hunh. All "z". Two journals, Jrnl. Med. Res. from 1907 and Nature from 1947, who were undoubtedly following their own styles; a 1974 book from Blackwell Publishing; and an American writer, Jayne Anne Phillips, in her 1984 book Machine Dreams. The extended meaning, called "Chiefly U.S.", cites journals, A. Bartlett Giamatti, and N.Y. Mag.. I would accept "-ise" especially in the extended meaning in a British source, myself. --Milkbreath (talk) 14:32, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
You just have to look in a British dictionary not published by OUP. My Collins English Dictionary gives it as "metastasize or metastasise". —Angr 05:56, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

We have a useful article at Oxford spelling. For me, the -z- is to be preferred. Xn4 23:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Untitled

"Transforming growth factor beta (TGF-β) is a secreted protein that exists in three isoforms called TGF-β1, TGF-β2 and TGF-β3." Is punctuation required between isoforms and called? ----Seans Potato Business 22:25, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Don't know about "required" but appreciated, yes. --Lisa4edit (talk) 22:49, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Very few commas are required, and this one only comes close, but it comes very close. I would put it in every time, no question. Without the comma, the sense is damaged; the three isoforms are not called that, each isoform is called each thing in turn. The comma makes "called" mean something like "namely", which is what is meant. --Milkbreath (talk) 23:27, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. I think the no-comma version is natural and its sense is not damaged. The comma merely moves the emphasis slightly away from the three names by making them parenthetical. Compare "I have a dog named Lassie" (most emphasis on his name), "I have a dog, named Lassie" (less), and "I have a dog (named Lassie)" (least). --Anonymous, 02:32 UTC, May 16, 2008.
No -- Anon has overlooked a key point, the fact that there are three names, not just one. The example with Lassie is a fine one, but not for this case :-). --Danh, 70.59.79.51 (talk) 13:34, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I think that we've proved that this comma is not "required", whatever we think of its advisability. The example I was thinking of when I made my first reply here was "There are seven stars in Taurus's shoulder called the Pleiades." vs. "There are seven stars in Taurus's shoulder, called Alcyon, Atlas, Electra...." --Milkbreath (talk) 14:17, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm not at all sure that whether the object of "called" is one thing or many things has anything to do with whether a comma belongs before "called" or not. Compare:
  • A. "There are seven stars in Taurus's shoulder called the Pleiades", with
  • B. "There are seven stars in Taurus's shoulder, called the Pleiades", and
  • C. "There are seven stars in Taurus's shoulder called Alcyon, Atlas, Electra...." , with
  • D. "There are seven stars in Taurus's shoulder, called Alcyon, Atlas, Electra....".
In A/B, a comma avoids the possibility of some reader thinking you're saying that Taurus's shoulders have names, and the shoulder that contains seven stars is called the Pleiades. Shoulders always come in pairs, and presumably the other one would have a different name. In C/D, it's possible that (in the comma-less version) the reader might think this shoulder's name is Alcyon, and the list of the seven stars it contains starts with Atlas. Putting a comma before "called" wipes out this problem before it can get off the ground.
A further consideration is that:
  • E. "The three isoforms called TGF-β1, TGF-β2 and TGF-β3 are ...." means something different from
  • F. "The three isoforms, called TGF-β1, TGF-β2 and TGF-β3, are ....".
E is saying there may be many isoforms, but we're only mentioning 3 of them here; F is saying there are only 3 isoforms in total, and these are their names. Since the original sentence is conveying the latter sense, a comma is required. Thus, "Transforming growth factor beta (TGF-β) is a secreted protein that exists in three isoforms, called TGF-β1, TGF-β2 and TGF-β3." I think this may be what you were getting at in your first post, Milkbreath. Sure, you can get away with not using the comma, but if you always go for what you can get away with, and don't go the extra mile to consider how one of your readers might be reasonably misled, even if only momentarily, why bother picking up the pen? Why create a less satisfactory sentence, particularly when all that stands between ambiguity and clarity is a comma? -- JackofOz (talk) 15:25, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
(ec) I was about to say essentially (although much less elegantly and comprehensively) what Jack just said. Deor (talk) 15:29, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
You've nailed it, Jacko. I plead jet lag. --Milkbreath (talk) 15:48, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree with E/F, but have the opposite reading for A/B: In A, the stars are called the Pleiades; in B, the shoulder is called the Pleiades. kwami (talk) 18:36, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I think that most readers would not see it that way, kwami. However, since you and a small group of others obviously do, I would have to take my own advice, take you into account, and recast the sentence - "There are seven stars in Taurus's shoulder, (which are) collectively known as the Pleiades". -- JackofOz (talk) 00:25, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The reverse of "orphan"

Is there a word in any language which means specifically "a parent whose children are dead"? The closest match I know of(in English) is the phrase "empty nester", but that doesn't really fit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.224.182.55 (talk) 23:43, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

There might be no official term for it, at least I can't think of one. I did find this, though:
A wife who loses a husband is called a widow. A husband who loses a wife is called a widower. A child who loses his parents is called an orphan. But...there is no word for a parent who loses a child, that's how awful the loss is! - Neugeboren 1976, 154
And doesn't "empty nest" refer to, say, students who leave home to study or work, c.f. "flying the nest"? x42bn6 Talk Mess 01:17, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, "empty nester" is definitely not what is meant here. Although the term comprises parents whose child died if they don't have any other children. It usually does refer to parents who find that they have new "spare rooms" in their house and time on their hands that used to be occupied by caring for their children. Parents who lost their child can take quite a while to reach that stage. "Parents in mourning" is all I could come up with, but that only applies temporarily (one hopes). --71.236.23.111 (talk) 03:56, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
The title of Harriet Sarnoff Schiff's book The Bereaved Parent was translated to Verwaiste Eltern ("orphaned parents") in German. German WP even has an article on Verwaiste Eltern. I've seen the expression "orphaned parents" used in English too, in psychological publications and self-help groups. Not very original and possibly misleading since it could mean parents without parents, but the context usually makes it clear, and the etymology of orphan does include "bereft", "deprived", "changing allegiance", and "passing from one status to another". --Sluzzelin talk 07:02, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I've sometimes heard "orphan" defined as a person with no family, although one rarely hears of adult "orphans", presumably because adults can(generally) survive on their own without the help of parents or legal guardians. Thanks for the input. 69.224.182.55 (talk) 18:07, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Surely this is the time to coin the word "nahpro". -- SGBailey (talk) 20:34, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
T'nod esaelp. -- zOfokcaJ