Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 March 14

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[edit] March 14

[edit] How to pronounce: Leah Buechley?

http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~buechley/about_me/about_me.html

I don't have a dictionary of surnames at hand... Searching yielded no results... Thanks... The Other Saluton (talk) 11:50, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

If you pronounce it bju:tʃli you may not be right, but it's a safe bet that she'll have heard it before. —Tamfang (talk) 21:44, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I stink at IPA, so maybe this is the same thing. Just glancing at it, I'd pronounce it "Byooklee". ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 02:58, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
That's what I'd guess too: IPA: /ˈliːə ˈbjuːkliː/. — kwami (talk) 04:11, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
It could also be Bucklee, Bewlee, Barklee or Byoochlee. Unfortunately, I can't find it in my surname dictionaries. Gwinva (talk) 02:00, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] If Australian books have their spelling and grammar changed...?

Not sure if this is the correct reference desk to ask this, but: If Australian books have their spelling and grammar changed when released in America, why isn't it the same when American books are released in Australia? 124.176.160.139 (talk) 11:56, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Cultural ignorance? (Dons tin helmet. Heads for bunker) - X201 (talk) 11:58, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
America is a (far) bigger market and so can expect better 'localisation' perhaps, of course I find it odd that any change is neccessary since the two 'languages' are mutually intelligble (as far as I know).87.102.83.204 (talk) 12:04, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Mostly intelligible, but can still be irritating rather than defeating. Little things like Fall instead of Autumn, faucet instead of tap, trunk instead of boot. Non-US readers can understand them but it gives off the feeling that the publisher can't be bothered with you, wants the sales but can't be bothered to put in any effort to get them. Same is true of US companies that use their US TV ads in Europe and just re-dub them, it engenders a feeling of "you can't be bothered to make an advert for me and my fellow countrymen, I can't be bothered with your product" And I suppose to answer the original question, it's probably mostly down to economics, population and sales wise it's the equivalent of asking them to produce a Texas only version. - X201 (talk) 12:16, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Other than "boot", all of the examples you gave are used in the United States. I don't think either "Fall" or "Autumn" is more commonly used than the other, and I hear both "faucet" and "tap" used regularly. There may be regional differences (New Englind vs. California vs. the South vs. the Midwest), but I've heard all four used all over in the States. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 02:37, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Australia is a comparatively small market, and rarely warrants its own edition from an economic standpoint. As a result, books in global English release sometimes see a British and American version. Given the general variety of English used in Australia, it gets the British version. Often the British version will use metric measures, British spelling, but pounds for monetary units. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 14:38, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
We Australians also grow up with the American terminology around the place, so we understand it easily, even if we don't use it in everyday speech. Most people can say 'X is the American word, Y is the British one, we say Z (or X or Y).' Sometimes we get them confused, but they're definitely understood. Steewi (talk) 00:34, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese annal and article

I need to know the most commonly accepted English name for the Qi Guo Chunqiu Houji (七國春秋後集). I know it is related to the Spring and Autumn Annals. Is there an article for this already? --Ghostexorcist (talk) 14:33, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Dunno about the translation... all I know is that it is a novelisation of the historical events of the Spring and Autumn Annals. My stab at translating it would be something like "Latter volume of the Spring and Autumn Annals of the Seven Kingdoms" --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 14:39, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Do you know where I can find a page that describes when it was written? I know it mentions Sun Bin and Pang Juan as being disciples of the celestial Gui Guzi (Master Ghostvalley). I will be adding the material to a featured article. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 14:44, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
The Seven Kingdom might be the Seven Warring States in the Warring States Period. Oda Mari (talk) 15:34, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


According to the entry in the Baidu Encyclopedia on "Romance on the Record of the Struggle Between Sun and Pang" 《孫龐鬥志演義》 one of the earliest copies of the aforementioned "Romance" is a late Ming version in the Naikaku Bunko (內閣文庫)collection. The end of the "Romance" coincides well with the beginning of the "Spring and Autumn of the Seven Kingdoms, Part II" 《七國春秋後集》, which leads the author to believe that the "Romance" was based on Part I, which is no longer extant. The earliest version of "Part II," also stored in the collection of the Naikaku Bunko, is from "Collection of Historically Themed Vernacular Tales of the Yuan Dynasty"《元刻講史平話集》 (literally "printed/carved in the Yuan") . The full title of the story is " New Fully Illustrated Vernacular Tale of Leyi Plotting Against Qi - Spring and Autumn of the Seven Kingdoms, Part II," divided into three chapters.《新刊全相平話樂毅圖齊七國春秋後集》３卷 The Baidu article gives some information about the evolution of the story, starting with Sima Qian's biography of Sun Bin, but the story in its current form probably originated at some point between the Song and Yuan dynasties.

See http://baike.baidu.com/view/420249.html, and http://www.guoxue.com/gjzl/362/gJ_06.htm 65.96.127.245 (talk) 16:55, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Couple of notes to the above post: Naikaku Bunko is the "cabinet library" of Japan, which preserves a great deal of ancient Chinese books which have been lost in China derived from the collections of the Edo shogunate.
元刻: "engraved in the Yuan dynasty". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:25, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] English usage: "Me either" v. "Me neither"

I have an argument with a friend of mine over the usage of "me either" versus "me neither". It started in a conversation of ours:

ME: "I can't find a book."
HE: "Me either."

My position is that "me either" is incorrect here, as it would require a negative verb in the same sentence. The correct phrase would have been either "I can't either" or "Me neither". I draw support from the following websites: Washington State University Professor on English, Website by the British Council. Now, it would seem an English Professor and the British Council are good authorities on that, but my friend had an interesting argument for his position (that "me either" is correct): He contends that his usage implicates an Ellipsis and is thus correct (i.e. "(I can't find a book) [me] either.") However, I think that an ellipsis cannot be used here. As an indication for that serves the fact that "me neither" actually exists. If he were right, there would be no need for "me neither". The fact that "me either" appears to be on the rise as vernacular for "me neither" is disregarded in this discussion.
Who is right? Your answers, comments and ideas are greatly appreciated. --Florian Prischl (talk) 15:53, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment? You two should get married. Sheesh. As for the question, I think that both are so informal and colloquial that no standard of correctness can apply. They both sound OK to me, if that matters. --Milkbreath (talk) 16:00, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Is 'me either' an Americanism? To me (English) it sounds horribly incorrect. Algebraist 16:35, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Googling gives some evidence that it is an Americanism. I supposed "neither" to rhyme with "breather" is, too? --Milkbreath (talk) 17:03, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
It's not a question of "correct" per se. If you want to get all formal about it, since HE is referring to himself in the nominative case, an ultra-ultra-pedant would be horrified that he uses any pronoun other than "I", and would insist on "Neither can I" or even "I can't find one either". But "Me neither" is an absolutely stock standard expression that pedants of the lesser varieties have no qualms with. It's in the same class of expressions such as "Me too" when used nominatively. "Me either" is wrong; it appears to be a well-intentioned hyper-correction, based on "I can't find one either", but it only goes half-way. Going the whole hog would give us the absurd "I either", and going a further hog would result in the equally absurd "I neither".
(Interestingly, I've just noticed for the first time that, although normally when I say "neither" I use the nigh-ther pronunciation, when it's part of "me neither", I automatically switch to the nee-ther version. "Me nee-" has a euphony that I subconsciously seem to favour, and one that "me nigh-" lacks; which may be part of the story behind why it's become acceptable to use a phrase starting with "me" when we're all taught to use "I" in such cases. If we stuck to the "rules", we'd have HE saying "I can't find one either", or at least "Neither can I". But "Me neither" is shorter still, is highly accepted outside of formal writing, does the job beautifully, and has the advantage of being more euphonious than either way of saying the relatively jarring "Me either". (Me ee-ther - yuck! Me eye-ther - double yuck!) -- JackofOz (talk) 17:27, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] English: How do I speak good grammar?

How do i speak good grammar? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.206.239.148 (talk) 18:54, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

First step, get a hold of that classic learning aid, English As She Is Spoke.  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 22:11, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Love: how to say "I love you" in Italian?

How might someone go about saying 'i love you' in italian? being a native speaker of english, i find that the language has ten times as much grammar as I'm used to, so I'm a bit lost. It looks (based on wiktionary) like it should be something like Io tu amare, but I'm almost certain some part of that is wrong. Someone help. 172.141.96.215 (talk) 22:16, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Ti amo. Deor (talk) 22:22, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I also note that the italian translation of the song 'happy birthday to you' doesn't actually mention birthdays at all. Is there a reason for this? 172.141.96.215 (talk) 22:20, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

They sing it as follows: Tant'auguri a te (a voi in plural). Used on any 'celebratable' [ < is this an existing English word? ] occasion, not just b-days. Patio (talk) 08:55, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


Ti adoro sempre di più, tesoro mio!
 
 
♥
 
 
But be careful. It's powerful stuff.
–⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝoNoetica!T– 23:34, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I thought "Ti voglio bene" was standard for a declaration of romantic love Rhinoracer (talk) 13:35, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Here we go again ... singular versus plural

In anticipation of tomorrow's anniversary of Caesar's assassination (God rest his soul) ... which is correct and why?

  • The Ides of March is ...
  • The Ides of March are ...

Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 22:38, 14 March 2008 (UTC))

Is. There's no such thing as an Ide. Corvus cornixtalk 01:41, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
So, if we eliminated the preposition, we'd say: "Wow, the ides is tomorrow! This year flew by quickly!" Is that right? (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 01:46, 15 March 2008 (UTC))
Is or are. The fact that there is no Ide doesn't help much. We don't say scissors is useful, do we?
The American Heritage Dictionary defines Ides as a plural noun used with singular or plural verb forms, like barracks or works. Pallida  Mors 02:22, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

"Ides" is actually parallel to "Nones" and "Kalends". See Roman Calendar. AnonMoos (talk) 08:13, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it seems that in English there is an "Ide", or at least there was: see OED (online) which quotes "1641 HOWELL Vote in New Vol. Lett. (1650) Iij, The soft gliding Nones and every Ide". and "1834 LYTTON Pompeii I. iii, ‘It stands fixed for the ninth ide of August’, answered Pansa."
OED also says "ides, n. pl.", which seems to demand "are". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:19, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
"Idus" was plural in Latin, although I'm not familiar with any sentence where "Ides" would require its own verb, especially "is/are". (It's usually an ablative expression, "on the Ides of [whatever]"). Surely some ancient author must have explained them somewhere, maybe Ovid in the Fasti? I don't know. Adam Bishop (talk) 09:48, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
"Beware the Ides of March" - that's accusative in English, I believe (even though it's equivalent to "Beware of the Ides ...", which isn't). -- JackofOz (talk) 11:29, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Yeah...that reminds me, the Ides of March thing comes from Plutarch, and in the English translation on LacusCurtius it has "the Ides of March are...". Unfotunately he wrote in Greek (the Perseus website has the Greek but it's maddening to find anything there) so that doesn't help with the Latin, but it solves the English question! Adam Bishop (talk) 11:47, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
This reminds me of the weird case for kudos. My vocabulary textbook (Merriam-Webster) notes that kudos, which is originally Greek, is technically singular, but the s at the end has led English speakers to use it as a plural. So in colloquial English...no singular/plural rules exist? Sad...--~~MusicalConnoisseur~~ Got Classical? 21:05, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
All right, I should have brought this up earlier, from the AHD:
“ ides (īdz) pl.n. (used with a sing. or pl. verb). The 15th day of March, May, July, or October or the 13th day of the other months in the ancient Roman calendar. [Middle English, from Old French, from Latin Īdūs.] ”

--~~MusicalConnoisseur~~ Got Classical? 21:12, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Kudos? True, some English speakers use it as a plural. But I think well-informed people regard it, use it, and pronounce it as a singular noun, not as the plural of "kudo". Kudos to them. It's just a question of whether well-informed people are in the majority. Everyone's on the internet these days, so the answer is probably "no". -- JackofOz (talk) 21:34, 16 March 2008 (UTC)