Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 October 20

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[edit] October 20

[edit] Evidence of a syntactically important phoneme/grapheme?

I was wondering if there is any evidence of a certain phoneme/grapheme in a language that carries "weight" as a syntactically/grammatically relevant sound -- as in, it does not modify the word (as the phoneme "s" often pluralizes words in English), but affects the sentence. An example might be (in my mind, this would be the most plausible) a phoneme being added to a word to denote primary stress in a sentence. An example sentence in this hypothetical language would be: "I forgot to call you yesterday, but how about todayx?" (Where x could be any sound.) Can someone point me to a link or something that has more information about this? I have yet to see any evidence of this happen in a language, but fail to see why it could not. --Deshi no Shi 02:39, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Just so you get some kind of answer, I'll throw this out there (but I think you're looking for a discrete thingie with maybe some morphology but portable). Two things come to mind for English: The way we lengthen a sound to mean "very" (gooo-OOOD or grrrrrrrEAT) and the little coughing "ah" you hear certain preachers do connoting I'm not sure what. --Milkbreath 03:18, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure you'd find a study of the Greek particles interesting, as they'd seem to fit the bill nicely (from mere emphasis to the subtlest gradations of tone and argument). (The standard work is by Denniston, edited by Dover.) Wareh 03:51, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Various languages have things like focus particles. (There's no article on this subject!!). Japanese particles include this and other functions (unfortunately the bit on 'ga' does not mention focus, but says subject. Oh dear), and you also find focus particles in places like Africa (Bambara):

póyi bé é dè wéle

exploit IMPFV you FOC call

‘It is a great deed which calls you…’ From La prise de Dionkoloni, line 245

and Yoruba

Olú ni ó ra iṣu.

Olu FOC 3S buy yams

‘It was Olu that bought yams.’ M.E. Kropp Dakubu. 2005. “The syntax of focus in Ga and Akan and the significance of related constructions”. Drmaik 05:29, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] what form of language is this?

To say hate you but mean love you. my best friend write me a love letter and at the end he has written: hate you!IS it just informal writing or there is special form? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.207.212.229 (talk) 07:29, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Sarcasm is a form of irony that attacks a person or belief through harsh and bitter remarks that often mean the opposite of what they say,but I am sure he does not like to mock me.He want to say love you in a very informay form. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.207.212.229 (talk) 08:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

You seem to have pulled your definition of sarcasm from this glossary, so I will assume you are not familiar with the term sarcasm. Sarcasm is not always used to mock someone; it can be used to tease as well. However, there is probably a more precise term for this phenomenon. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 08:53, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

This is one of those things that falls into that 'words are only 7% of the meaning idea. Obviously this is written so the whole 55% non-verbal comm (expression/body language) and 38% voice (pitch, tone, volume, speed etc.) bit doesn't quite fall into it...but the context, your mindset of the individual, the exclamation etc. I think it is more of an in joke than anything else. ny156uk 10:33, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
As a rhetorical device, I think you can call it antiphrasis. --Milkbreath 17:06, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] a passage in latin

What does Eriugena mean when he writes "not 'ita ut non sint' but 'ut melius sint'"? It is in Copleston, of course.Omidinist 08:03, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

"ita ut non sint" could be referring to the vulgate translation of verse 35 in Psalm 104 (Greek numbering: Psalm 103). See here, for example. The literal translation would be "so that they be no more" ("and let the wicked be no more" in the King James Version.) "ut melius sint" means "so that they be better". I don't know what Eriugena meant though. Do you have any more context? ---Sluzzelin talk 13:09, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] to Sluzzelin

Your response is so helpful. I got the idea. Thank you so much. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omidinist (talk • contribs) 05:51, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Animo libenti feci! ---Sluzzelin talk 11:14, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Greek and German

How do you write "Distomo massacre" in Greek and German? Neutralitytalk 08:48, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

In Greek: el:Η σφαγή στο Δίστομο (as seen on the article you linked) − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 08:55, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
German Wikipedia doesn't have a separate article on it (the massacre is discussed at de:Distomo), but "Massaker in Distomo" and "Massaker von Distomo" get about equal numbers of Google hits, while "Distomo-Massaker" gets rather fewer. —Angr 09:02, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
de:Kategorie:Massaker lists 41 "Massaker von ...", 18 hyphenated "...-Massaker", and 0 "Massaker in ...". Personally, I'd choose "Massaker von Distomo" as well. ---Sluzzelin talk 12:40, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Actually you can say both. "Massaker in Distomo" would be situated in Distomo, "von Distomo" is situated around it. Have a look at www.tagesschau.de [1] it uses "Massaker in Distomo" referring to the people of Distomo. It's also used by parties [2], by the German newspaper "Die Welt" [3] and, by the Bundestag [4]. On the other hand you can also find "Massaker von Distomo" used by the Bundestag [5] and by the Bundesgerichtshof [6]. So there are official sources for both expressions. I personally would say "Massaker von Distomo" but you can also use "in".--89.53.23.64 19:24, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Apse meaning

I looked in a few dictionaries, and find only the archaic astronomical definition and the architectural definition. However, doing some google searches I find that in the dialect of the Isle of Wight, apse might mean aspen tree i.e., populus tremuloides. From what I have read in a few places, this meaning of apse might have given rise to the place names on the Isle of Wight that include the word Apse, like Apse Heath. Since the aspen tree is native to North America, was it spread to Europe and the Island of Wight, giving rise to this name? Is it not native to North America after all? Is there another tree that is like an aspen in Europe?--Filll 17:28, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

The Common Aspen, or Trembling Poplar (Populus tremula) is native to Europe, indeed the name Aspen is from an Old English word æspe. DuncanHill 17:35, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
There is an Apsley End in Beds, which is also derived from the Old English æsp. This placename is first recorded as Aspele in 1230. Interestingly, Aspley Guise, also in Beds, is first recorded as Æpslea in 969. From this, I would surmise that the ps or sp sound may have been rather unstable in English, leading to a switching in some cases. DuncanHill 17:45, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
The OED, 2nd ed. has aps, Old English or dialect form of asp or aspen. DuncanHill 17:57, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, as the OED article just mentioned shows, the last written sources actually showing the -ps variant used to refer to the tree date to around the year 1000. If there is any written evidence that people on the Isle of Wight have spoken that form to refer to the tree since then, then the OED article is defective. It seems safe to assume that, as often, the place name has preserved otherwise obsolete words. (Do you actually have evidence that the form was spoken anywhere to refer to a tree after the Medieval period? Of course, it may have been, but it didn't survive late enough and widespread enough to get caught in the written record.) Wareh 19:36, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


It was in a journal article from 1886 that is scanned in by Google. I did not read the whole thing because I could not figure out how to do so, if it is even possible. However, someone in 1886 thought this name for the tree was a part of the local dialect on the Isle of Wight. I do not know how widespread it was, and if any of it still continues to this day.--Filll 22:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why is 'fucker' used as an insult?

Seriously!

It does mean 'one who fucks'. Vitriol 18:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Its meaning has become extended and its literal meaning lost. See History of the word 'fuck'.--Shantavira|feed me 18:20, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, but before it was primarily an insult who in their right mind would have used it as one? Well, I assume it used to be used mostly meaning 'one who fucks'... Vitriol 18:42, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Two ideas:
1. To fuck something can mean break or ruin..
2. In sex being called a fucker wouldn't be an insult - therefor outside of sex it could fall into the class of insults that question ones sexuality
3. Sometimes swearing at someone is not an insult - just an expletive.87.102.17.46 19:13, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I believe it's that "fucker" is short for "motherfucker", i.e. one who fucks his mother, which is a pretty nasty accusation and one of the worst insults in English. -- Flyguy649 talk 22:35, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Yet "motherfucker" can also be a compliment. You're one smart motherfucker! Bhumiya (said/done) 23:32, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Sure, swear words when used between friends or in certain other contexts can be meant positively. But I wouldn't advise calling a random person a fucker or motherfucker, especially in anger. It could have... serious consequences. -- Flyguy649 talk 23:47, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I have the same problem with "wanker". If someone calls me that I can only answer "Yes,and jolly good fun it is too"--hotclaws 09:21, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Sexual words degenerate in meaning very quickly. For example, the word "mistress" used to mean something high and noble. Now...not so much. That's just the way the words evolve. So, in short, it's because the word describes something sexual, and like many sex words, it has degenerated in meaning (become more and more of a negative word) over time. Wrad 19:26, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Portuguese translation

Can someone who speaks Portuguese please help with a proper (not- Google) translation of this article please? this is in relation to the talk page at Talk:Disappearance of Madeleine McCann Thanks. Jooler 22:22, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Well the article is not about the Maddie case itself. It's about alleged torture committed 7 years ago by the head cop on the Maddie case. —Nricardo 05:29, 21 October 2007 (UTC)