Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 March 13

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Language desk
< March 12 << Feb | March | Apr >> March 14 >
Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.


Contents


[edit] March 13

[edit] 'Shop' and 'store'

What are the different usages for these two terms? In the UK, I think we would normally use 'shop' in an undifferentiated sense. We would also usually refer to a bookshop and a record (CD, maybe) shop. But we use 'store' in terms like department store and general store. I get the impression that American English uses 'bookstore' and 'record store'. Is 'shop' as a noun ever encountered in American English, and if so when? --Richardrj talk email 07:57, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, you go shopping in stores, but shop normally refers to where you take something to get repaired, or made. For example, you take your car to the shop, or the model is being made in the shop. I can't think of an example where you'd call a store a shop off the top of my head. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 08:11, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Interesting. In that sense of 'shop' the normal British English word would be 'workshop' (a word that has also taken on a secondary meaning, that of a discussion group or exercise). Does this word exist in American English? --Richardrj talk email 08:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Using Wirbelwind's example (which I took to be talking about a location you would take a car to to get it repaired) "take your car to the shop". I'm sure the British version would more likely be "take your car to the garage". - X201 12:48, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
At least in its secondary meaning, I think... 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 12:16, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Americans certainly recognize "shop" as a kind of synonym for "store" but don't often use it in that sense. I think that there are differences in nuance between the two words. I think that "shop" means either "workshop" or "place where mechanics work" on the one hand, or "little store" on the other hand. For example, you might go to a "card shop" to buy greeting cards. I think that for Americans, a "shop" (if it is not a place where mechanics work on cars or other equipment) is a small store, typically oriented to pedestrians rather than car drivers, that typically sells small and dainty items. Most Americans do not often shop at such a shop. Generally they shop at stores instead, which are typically larger, with multiple aisles, and, except in the densest cities, ample parking. We do have the word "workshop" in American English as well. "Shop" is a shorter form of "workshop", which sounds a bit more formal. Marco polo 13:35, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
It occurred to me that the prototypical "shop" in American English might be "gift shop". I don't think I've ever heard of a "gift store". And then there is that American cliché, a shop named "Ye Olde ____ Shoppe" (where the blank indicates what is sold there). The word "shop", when used to mean a kind of store, implies quaintness, all the more so because it is more often pronounced with a British accent. Marco polo 13:41, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
An example of the latter is The Shop Around the Corner, which is indeed a gift shop (and not a bookstore/bookshop as in the remake You've Got Mail). Plenty of bookstores in (for example) NYC call themselves "bookshop"[1], possibly to suggest the specialized knowledge you expect less and less from a store. Also, there seem to be a lot more flowershops than flowerstores in New York. Who needs stored flowers? While there are more mon-and-pop stores than mom-and-pop shops, the difference is marginal.  --LambiamTalk 14:25, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Enlighten me, please, as to the contents of a mom-and-pop store (I've never heard the term). I'd love to believe it sold mothers and fathers to orphaned children, but I suspect the truth might be rather more prosaic. --Richardrj talk email 14:33, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
It is a small family-owned and -run store. The name suggests that it is run by a married couple, perhaps assisted by their children. Marco polo 15:14, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
See List of American words not widely used in the United Kingdom#M.  --LambiamTalk 16:40, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Though it appears that USians still go shopping even if they go to a store. The OED has the origin of 'shop' as the Old English 'sceoppa' (etymologically related to 'shippon'), meaning a lean-to, shed, booth or vestibule. The earliest recorded use is to describe the Jerusalem Temple treasury in the Old English Gospels. On the other hand, 'store' seems to be a newer character. It is attested in Middle English as 'stor' and, earlier, 'estor', and is from the Old French 'estor', meaning 'provision' or 'a stock of provisions'. It would make more sense if places that sold provisions were called stores, and little specialist outlets called shops. I used to live in Darlington in the North East. There used to be a large section of railway factories along North Road, which were called the North Road Shops, but you could only buy rolling stock there. — Gareth Hughes 17:19, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Americans have barbershops where Britons often just have barber's (actually I guess the plural would be barbers'). Americans often have coffeehouses rather than coffee shops. And instead of chip shops they have...um... diners? Britain has department stores and chain stores, but the village shop, if it exists, is not a general store. jnestorius(talk) 22:06, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
A "shop" definitely sounds smaller and friendlier than a "store." The little second-hand bookstores downtown call themselves "bookshops," but if Barnes & Noble called itself a "bookshop," it would sound phony. Note that in some parts of the U.S., it's common to refer to the local grocery store/supermarket as simply "the store." As in: "Can you stop by the store to pick up some horseradish on your way home?" -- Mwalcoff 22:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually, jnestorius, the plural of barber is just "barbers". Inserting an apostrophe is ... well, wrong. You didn't put an apostrophe with Americans, barbershops, coffeehouses, shops, diners, or stores - so why make an exception for barbers? :) JackofOz 00:04, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
barber's is singular: it's an abbreviation of barber's shop. You say "I'm going to the barber's" if the shop has only one barber. OTOH, whether there are several barbers in one shop, or several each with his own, then barbers' is the abbreviation: for both barbers' shop and barbers' shops. Similarly, in Britain you go to the baker's, not the bakery. jnestorius(talk) 01:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification. I see what you're getting at now. I guess I was confused by your comparison between barbershops and barbers.  :) JackofOz 01:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How do you correct a spelling mistake in a non-editable area?

Reference>> Horatio Alger Jr

In the first paragraph, last sentence...

"As bestsellers in their own time, Alger's books rivaled those of Mark Twain in popsularitine"

It probably should read as...

"As bestsellers in their own time, Alger's books rivaled those of Mark Twain in popularity."

Regards,

Chris —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.47.1.226 (talk) 17:06, 13 March 2007 (UTC).

It is an editable area. But it seems to have been fixed now in any case. Regards, --Richardrj talk email 17:08, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Look at the very top edge of the page. There should be a tab marked "edit this page" which will allow you to edit the first paragraph, section headings, and so on. Shui9 22:47, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Term, pronunciation, and legal standing for a third party who pays legal cost

I cannot find a legal term for one who pays the legal cost for one whom needs legal representation. Can you help me with this legal latin term and if I am protected (and process of protection of remaining unknown to court and complaintants.

Thank You and Respectfully,

Dennis —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.119.200.61 (talk) 17:44, 13 March 2007 (UTC).

It is not completely clear what you are asking for. In the United States there is the figure of the public defender in criminal cases for defendants who can't afford a lawyer. The cost is then borne by the local government (read: the tax payer). In civil cases one rarely needs legal representation. In various places there are legal assistance groups, like in New York the New York Legal Assistance Group. As far as I know, there is no uniform solution to the problem, and what you are asking for is not a legal concept, let alone that there would be a Latin term for it. I don't understand the part about being protected and process remaining unknown. Can you rephrase that in plain English?  --LambiamTalk 19:09, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Lambiam, I think you are misunderstanding the question. Either that or I am misunderstanding your reply. Surely you did not mean to write that "in civil cases one rarely needs legal representation". --Mathew5000 22:23, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
What I mean is that there is often no legal procedural requirement to have a lawyer; you can represent yourself. See Pro se. Whether that is wise is another matter, but it implies that "the system" can get away with not providing a solution for legal representation of indigent parties to a lawsuit.  --LambiamTalk 09:36, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
It is possible that the term being sought is champertor. Note that champerty was traditionally prohibited although the law is in flux on that point and of course it depends on the particular jurisdiction.[2] As I understand it, the question here is asking essentially this: If X is involved in a legal proceeding against Y, and Z puts up the money to pay for X's lawyer, is the identity of Z protected by privilege or can Y find it out? Also if X loses in court, is there a possibility that Z will be liable to Y (for legal costs, e.g.). Clearly no good answer can be given to the question considering that the questioner did not even specify what country he or she is talking about. --Mathew5000 22:39, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Here's a little blurb on this issue in Ohio: [3]. --Mathew5000 07:09, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Or it could be Maintenance. It's illegal though.203.109.167.159 08:50, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Seeking help from Bengali speakers

i want to know the meaning of my name,SHIMOLI, in bengali language..!!can u help me plz?? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.95.203.174 (talk) 06:43, 1 March 2007 (UTC).

y cant any one answer my question?? plzz help me find it!!!

Sorry that we have a lack of expertise in Indian languages. I have almost no such expertise myself. Hopefully someone will come along who can help. Marco polo 17:16, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
If you can speak bengali you are probably better placed to answer this than us. Perhaps you could ask the question somewhere on the Bengali Wikipedia. If it is any help personal names are often mad up or borrowed from other languages simply because they sound nice. There is a Shimoli plain in Afganistan and shimoli apparently means north in the Uzbek language. It also means stinging or smarting like a wound in the Choctaw language. meltBanana 20:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

but i m not a bengali...i dont even understand a word of bengali language.. plz help me find the meaning in bengali...plz???

I have taken the liberty of changing the title of your query so that it might be more likely to attract someone who could help. Marco polo 19:24, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Shimoli, here is another suggestion. Here is a List of Wikipedians whose native language is Bengali. You might try leaving messages on their user talk pages. Click the person's name in the list to go to his/her user page. Then click on the "Discussion" tab. Your best bet would be to ask the question of a user who has several posts on his/her talk page, which would indicate that he/she is an active editor. Marco polo 19:37, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Translation

what is a reposteria from Spanish to English? (accent on the i)Coffsneeze 20:00, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

A generic term for sweet things, including confectionery, pudding, cake, icecream.  --LambiamTalk 20:54, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Translate into german "a broken limb of a shipwrecked faction"

Hallo, Algornon Sidney (1622-1683) wandered about Europe for almost twenty years “as a vagabond through the world, forsaken of my friends, poor, and known only to be a broken limb of a shipwrecked faction.” Can you translate or describe what the meaning of ""'a broken limb of a shipwrecked faction.” is? The other parts are no problem for me. Thanks in advance -- Jlorenz1 20:11, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Germans can't help me see this page -- Jlorenz1 20:20, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
In this, the word 'faction' represents Sidney's political group — he and those who supported his position. At this stage, his once powerful faction had lost its leading position and was unable to influence the politics of the day — poetically, 'shipwrecked'. In some senses, 'limb' can simply refer to a separate, or almost separate, part of something. Just as a ship wrecked splinters, so his faction splintered, and he remained a lone limb, like a timber from such a wreck that floats on the sea. I think 'vagabond' and 'forsaken' speaks for itself. — Gareth Hughes 22:18, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I actually thought that the Germans did a fairly good job of translating and explaining the phrase, which is a bit obscure even to a native English speaker. Marco polo 00:00, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the meaning was well explained. An attempt at a translation that keeps some of the original flavour: "ein gebrochenes Glied einer Partei die Schiffbruch erlitten hat".  --LambiamTalk 06:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to all, it is really complicated. Should I use a close translation or should I try to find a similiar metapher - (I will find a solution)? Background is the writing competition in the german wikipedia and this articel about Algernon Sidney in work. -- Jlorenz1 08:04, 14 March 2007 (UTC)