Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 February 28

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[edit] February 28

[edit] Looking for a word

I remember seeing a Wikipedia article about a certain type of fiction, where the protagonist "lives" out the fantasy of the author. The term describing it was derived from the name of a real person. Ring any bells? Clarityfiend 02:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Walter Mitty comes to mind. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 05:28, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Aha! I found it: Mary Sue. Clarityfiend 06:01, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is it..

Iraq (irr-rock) or Iraq (irr-rack)? I've heard both pronunciation used by the press, the American government (Bush seems to prefer the latter pronunciation), and laypersons. Is there a "proper" way to say the country's name? I don't quite understand the pronunciation guide in the article under Name. -Wooty Woot? contribs 05:26, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I've also heard it pronounced eye-rack, but I vote for irr-rack. However, if it's the first, then we're between irr-rock and a hard place... Clarityfiend 06:06, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Not to be confused with IROC. :-) StuRat 07:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
See List of words of disputed pronunciation#I Nohat 09:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
There is a recording of the name at the top of the Iraq article. The Arabic name عراق is transliterated as ‘Irāq. The standard pronunciation of this in Modern Standard Arabic, which would be the most accurate pronunciation, is [ʕiˈraːq] (in IPA, each symbol here is clickable and will take you to an article on that specific feature). The sounds [ʕ] and [q] do not occur in English, so pronouncing the name like this in English may sound odd. Thus, the best possible pronunciation using only phonemes that are available in English would be [ɪˈɹɑːk] in Received Pronunciation, [ɪˈɹaːk] in General Australian and [iˈɹɑk] in General American. But the bottom line is not to say 'eye-rack'! — Gareth Hughes 14:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
There was a great Colbert Report episode where Christiane Amanpour discussed this very issue. While I couldn't find a clip, there is this article about it on the wikiality website. She contends that it is in fact E-ROCK and E-RON. --Cody.Pope 20:41, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
You can be sure if Bush pronounces it, it is incorrect :) To pronounce it 'eye-rack' or nowadays, 'eye-ran' for Iran, not only shows ignorance but also that you have no respect for the culture or the original pronunciation. The correct way to say it is 'ee-raak' Sandman30s 14:28, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Rather than add another negative comment, I thought I would expand my previous answer with the details of the pronunciation of the name of Iran (Persian: ايران, Īrān). Unlike the name 'Iraq', the pronunciation of which I outlined above, 'Iran' is relatively easy. The standard Persian pronunciation is [iˈɾɒn] (every sign is clickable). Getting the 'r' to be a real tap can be a bit difficult, just don't trill it like the 'r' in 'Iraq' should be trilled. — Gareth Hughes 15:35, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
It's ee-rock and ee-rahn. My friend who immigrated from Iran I would guess knows how to pronounce them. [Mαc Δαvιs] X (How's my driving?) ❖ 03:54, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I doubt it is literally ee-rock. I can swear I remember Saddam Hussein and some of his ministers pronouncing it ee-raak. There must be a fine line between the aw and aa sound in arabic then. Sandman30s 11:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
The two sounds are considered by native Arabic speakers to be one sound. There's just one way of writing it, and the actual pronunciation is determined by the sounds around it (and dialect, etc.), so that a native speaker would only say it one way in a given word, but the distinction between the sounds is not important. (There's no minimal pair, where changing the vowel in that way would yield a different word.) Tesseran 23:00, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  • It's i as in 'sit' and a as in the British pronounced 'plant'. - Mgm|(talk) 12:16, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually, it's [ʕiˈraːq] and [iˈɾɒn]. I am rather perplexed by the amateurish phonetics debate — you click on the letter and the article will tell you what the sound is — it's that easy. Put away your rocks and, no, neither word has 'i' in 'sit' in it. — Gareth Hughes 12:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is God Spanish?

In this article,

the Count-Duke Olivares stridently affirmed, "God is Spanish and fights for our nation these days".

Of course, God is God, not a "Spaniard". Does "God is Spanish" mean the God belongs to Spain? A little confused with the adjective/noun Spanish.--Fitzwilliam 07:53, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

It means something more like "God is on Spain's side" in some conflict or some question. Sometimes it's used facetiously to mean that the C/church is on one's side. --Diderot 09:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Literally it does mean that God is from Spain, or belongs to Spain; metaphorically, that the nation is especially favoured by God. The British Empire is similarly remembered as the era when "God was an Englishman". jnestorius(talk) 10:16, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I've been translating this article into Chinese. Considering that the "God" here favoured Spain, then I will make it metaphorically, not literally.--Fitzwilliam 10:53, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] help...questions of linguistics

1. (A) In all of the following English words there is an onset consonant cluster with /r/ in second position. Is there any way (using voice, place and manner of features) to describe the kind of consonant that can appear before /r/ in these clusters, and to exclude any other consonants?

　　brave, crash, freak, growl, pray, shriek, three, thrick

(B) When the second part of an onset cluster is /l/, as in black and other words, which features are required in the first consonant? (resource: an entrance exam for graduate school of National Cheng Kung University)

See English phonology#Phonotactics to get started with these questions. Nohat 09:14, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Names

I would like to know how to write the name Jonathan in Aramaic?

'Jonathan' is a Hebrew name that is either spelt יהונתן (Yəhônāṯān) or יונתן (Yônāṯan). An Aramaic-speaking Jew would use the name in Hebrew just like this. There is, however, a Syriac variant with the same basic meaning — ܝܗܒܐܠܗܐ (Yabballāhâ). — Gareth Hughes 15:00, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Pronunciation of Bodach in Irish or Scottish Gaelic?

Yet again with the Gaelic questions - how do you pronounce Bodach? (I'm not turning up anything on a Google search). Either Irish or Scottish Gaelic (or both) would be great. Thanks again. --Brasswatchman 21:39, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

In both languages it's basically [ˈbɔd̪ˠəx], but in Scots Gaelic the [b] and [d̪ˠ] are completely voiceless, so it sounds more like [ˈpɔt̪ˠəx] (but without any aspiration on the [p]). —Angr 05:05, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Since you seemed to still be learning the IPA earlier, btw, Brasswatchman, an approximation of that might be BAWD-ukh or BAWD-wukh (where "kh" is the voiceless velar fricative [x], and no actual [w] pronounced after the [d]...rather, the [d] is pronounced velarized...but I think trying to almost say [w] at the same time is a fair approximation). --Miskwito 07:06, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, but be sure to keep the vowel short (AW in English is often a long vowel). I wouldn't worry too much about the velarization; it'll come more or less naturally from the surrounding vowels in this word. But the D should be nice and dental (tongue touching your teeth, not the alveolar ridge as is usual in English), the way it is in French, Spanish, Italian, Slavic languages, and the stereotypical Yiddish accent. —Angr 07:12, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Excellent. Thank you - both of you - for the help. Not sure if I'll be any good with actual pronunciation - certainly haven't been when it's come to my other experiments in linguistics - but I'll give it a shot. Angr, I've put the information you gave me into the Bodach article. Thanks again. --Brasswatchman 22:56, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arabic translation

What does this translate to in English? I want to make it the Pic of the Month for April on the language portal, but I'd like to be able to provide a translation in the description. At first, I thought it was the Shahadah, but I know little Arabic, so I don't trust such an assumption. Any help would be appreciated. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 22:27, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

It's the Basmala, and I think the calligrapher may have been Mustafa Rakim Tashmektepli, or, at least, based on his work. — Gareth Hughes 00:39, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Thank you! The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 02:03, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
And, btw, we don't seem to have an article about him, despite a plenty of nice references which beg for a copy/paste copyvio reuse. :-). Duja► 16:27, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
It's not the Basmalla, the picture has a three dotted letter, and none of the letters in the basmalla require three dots. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 01:22, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

My mistake, those are just for artistic expression. It is.--Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 02:27, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Archiving

Would anybody who knows how to archive the Ref-Desks be able to assist in gettting the oldest day on each desk down to Feb 21, so that RefDeskBot can resume normal operation? Thanks for your help (you may be able to collaborate here if others are doing the same). Martinp23 22:31, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok, done up to the 21st here.-Andrew c 01:51, 1 March 2007 (UTC)