Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 February 17

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1 February 17

[edit] February 17

[edit] IPA help needed, please

Hi! I was looking at the following sentence on Paczki: "Paczki (Polish Pączki) (pronounced: ['pɔ̃ʧki])" In my interpretation, of IPA, it sounds like this word is pronounced "paatch-key". Am I correct? I'm getting thrown off by the tilde at the end (̃). What does that particular character symbolize?--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 01:59, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

the tilde diacretic symbolises nasalization. For example the French word "non" is transcribed as /nɔ̃/. --Krsont 02:47, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

So...it pretty much represents something not spoken with the tongue, am I correct?--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 02:53, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

well, that's a very general category of sounds... Basically it represents a sound distinction that doesn't exist in English. So unless you have some desire to pronounce paczki exactly as it is in Polish you can ignore it and pronounce it as "paatch-key", although /puntʃki/ ("punch-key") might be a better approximation. The article also has a .ogg recording of someone saying the word, which might help you. --Krsont 03:08, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I think the transcription is wrong. As I understand it, Polish ą is pronounced [ɔn] before stops and affricates, so Pączki should actually be [ˈpɔntʃki] (or rather [ˈpɔntʂkʲi]). A rough-and-ready transcription would be "paunch-key". —An gr 07:44, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

A girl in my class says "pornch-key". Would that also be an acceptable pronunciation?--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 00:37, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Angr is right, the correct Polish pronunciation of pączki is [ˈpɔntʂkʲi] (I corrected it on the Paczki page); a simplified notation that best approximates this pronunciation would be "PAUNCH-key". Note that the word paczki (without the ogonek and therefore without nasalization) is pronounced in Polish as [ˈpatʂkʲi] and means "parcels" or "packages". Alternatively, you can refer to pączki as "Polish doughnuts" – surely easier to pronounce for an English speaker! — Kpalion^(talk) 11:43, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

"pornch-key" would be correct only for those accents of English in which the words 'porn' and 'pawn' are pronounced the same. Nohat 08:21, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Distribution of trial number

Grammatical_number#Trial_number gives Tolomako, Lihir and Tok Pisin as examples of languages that have a grammatical trial number distinction, all three of which are spoken in Melanesia. Is this an areal feature unique to the region? And if not, where else is it found? --Krsont 02:41, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] bases

Is "bases", the plural of basis, pronounced with a long e sound at the end like crises or hypotheses, or is it the same as "bases", the plural of base? --Awesome 07:00, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

The former. A similar case is axes which is pronounced differently as the plural of axis than as the plural of ax. —An gr 07:35, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't follow completely? Could someone give IPA examples? (Not that I understand IPA completely, but I could get a general idea.) 惑乱分からん 13:04, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

The plural of base is bases [ˈbeɪsɪz], while the plural of basis is bases [ˈbeɪˌsiːz]. —An gr 13:28, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, [ˈbeɪˌsiːz] sounds slightly weird to me, and [ˈæksˌiːz] (?) even weirder, but maybe I'm just nout used to hearing the words spoken... 惑乱分からん 14:04, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Some people extend the pattern to words where it doesn't belong; I frequently hear [ˈprɑsɛˌsiːz] for processes. —An gr 14:26, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Or theses. JackofOz 00:32, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

According to Merriam-Webster, the long E (too lazy for IPA) is acceptable in processes, and the only pronunciation listed for theses. Why do you say these are wrong? Tesseran 14:22, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

For thesis, I guess it makes sense, since it has an -is singular form. 惑乱分からん 14:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

bases (pronounced with a long e sound) is the plural of basis; bases (pronounced with a schwa sound) is the plural of base. Check out each entry word (base and basis) in Merriam-Webster Dictionary. http://www.m-w.com Carlrichard 17:27, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pachinies history

I am from the United States and would like to submit a reference regarding the (Pachinies History, from the Dominican Republic) still not sure of the spelling? I have three years of college behind me and I will get to the bottom of this!

Any addition information you have on this topic would be helpful.

[edit] What word in English language is made plural by adding a 'B'

I had an English professor tell me that there was only one word in the English language that was made plural by adding the letter 'B'. I've searched for days but to no avail. Any idea as to which word he might be referring to?

Thanks for the help - Jan

I wonder if that's some silly joke, such as itch - bitch =S or something akin to that... 惑乱分からん 13:06, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

It's time we reclaimed the internets, starting with the webb. 222.158.162.117 12:10, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

You might want to read through English plural, it's a pretty comprehensive article, but I don't suppose it has anything like that. – b_jonas 21:17, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, M to B pluralization is common in Bantu languages, e.g. Muganda --> Baganda. Perhaps such words could be considered English loanwords, but it seems like a stretch. Bhumiya (said/done) 05:37, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I found PUS → PUBS. Or some other think outside the box crap. jnestorius^(talk) 01:23, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] romantisisation of russian

With reference to:

Gurbanguly Mälikgulyýewiç Berdimuhammedow (Russianized name: Курбанкули (or Гурбангулы) Мяликгулыевич Бердымухаммедов)

Specifically then ending '..дов'; 'в' is usually translated into 'v' or sometimes 'ff', my question is why has it been translated into 'w' here?

I realise that this person is 'turkmen' - but I've also seen 'w' used in other examples - are there any rules here? Does the pronounciation vary. I appreciate it if someone could explain.87.102.7.220 14:54, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

One very often sees the w transliteration under the influence of German, Polish, etc. (actually, most Slavic languages that use the Roman alphabet, right?), where w (like Russian в) is pronounced v (but unvoiced to f at the end of a word). For the Turkmen president, Google shows that the transliteration Berdimuhammedov is much more common, so I'm not sure whether there's any good reason why the Wikipedia article has gone with -ow. Wareh 15:41, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

So it's 'w' as in Wagner effectively - and depends the language of the translator - an english speaker would translate to 'ov' or 'off' and a german speaker would translate to 'ow' etc. No real rules. ??87.102.7.220 16:04, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Berdimuhammedow is the name in the Turkmen language, which uses the Latin script and has its own rules. Rendered in Russian Cyrillic, this is Бердымухаммедов. From Russian Cyrillic to Latin, using the popular system for the romanization of Russian, we get Berdymuhammedov.

Yes, German and Polish do transliterate Cyrillic "в" as "w", but this is irrelevant here. "off" and "eff" are not used in any transliteration system, but are commons ways for emigrants to transliterate their names so that they look somewhat more English/French/whatever, so it's more a matter of personal taste really.

Thanks - it was a question about both this specific case and in general - I got a name ending in 'ew' too.

There must be a russian influence here in the ending of 'Berdymuhammedov' surely - the name doesn't sound very turkish/turmen to me - but I'm not an expect on turkish language.87.102.7.220 18:38, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I hadn't realized the Turkmens had adopted a Latin alphabet in 1991. Obviously that's 100% of the reason for the spelling, in a narrow sense. But of course the phonetic values of the letters in the Turkmen alphabet must in turn have some explanation of their own, and in this explanation surely such languages as German, Polish, etc., are not irrelevant. Turkmen alphabet says it was based largely on Turkish (which has no w); the only reasonable explanation I can think of for why w was assigned the value [v/f] would be the example of German, Polish, etc. Also, while it is admittedly not the most systematic way, "-off" for final "-ov" has at times in the past been the norm in some languages, and I think it is motivated more by a desire to represent the sounds accurately; I doubt anybody thinks the spelling Sergei Rachmaninoff "less Russian." Wareh 20:15, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Sounds right/reasonable. There's a lot more ethnic 'germans'/ukrainians etc in central asia than english, maybe that generally relates to the reason for the 'non-anglophile' choice.87.102.2.106 22:03, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Happy new year in chinese

How does one say "Happy new year" in chinese?

See Chinese New Year#Greetings. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 16:45, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I looked there. Apparently it is written in "pinyin" (western letters) as: Xīnnián kuàilè. Unfortunately, there is a warning that unless one knows chinese or the pinyin system, one is likely to mispronounce pinyin. Could anyone give a hint at what the words should rhyme with?

Tones are important for meaning, a feature not present in English. Also, the pronunciation of the general sounds is often rather different... Hmmm, do yout think "shin-niUNN kuWHY-LUH" would suffice? =S 惑乱分からん 19:21, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd say "sheen-nyEN kWHY-LUH", maybe? For the question-asker: the first syllable (Xīn) is pronounced with a high level tone (just like saying the syllable at a high pitch and not varying the pitch for the syllable). The second (nián) is pronounced with a rising tone, similar to how our tone rises when we ask questions in English (like, "he did?"). The final two syllables (kuài and lè) are said with falling tones, similar to the tone we use when giving commands in English (like, "stop"). This is all a really simplistic explanation, but maybe it'll help. If you know the IPA, the phrase is [ɕin.niɛn kʰuai.lɤ], I believe. --Miskwito 22:40, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

How do you mark tones in IPA? Surely there must be a way? 惑乱分からん 15:05, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

There is a way, yes. See International_Phonetic_Alphabet#Suprasegmentals. So, in the IPA, with tones marked, that phrase is [ɕin˥.niɛn˧˥ kʰuai˥˩.lɤ˥˩]. --Miskwito 00:15, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! 惑乱分からん 14:18, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

Hi.. I am curious if this word is truly the longest word (or at least it was before). What does it mean anyway? thank you.

Different words have been called the longest, you can read more at the Longest word in English article. GhostPirate 18:32, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

See Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious. --NorwegianBlue^talk 19:48, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Holy Bible

Who wrote the Bible in Shorthand?----

This site has information on a shorthand Bible dating back to 1622. It was apparently written by Thomas French. IrishGuy ^talk 00:02, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Medieval English Word for a Military Encampment or a Fort?

Let's say you're a medieval king in England - say, any king between 1000 and 1500 - and you need to set up a military encampment somewhere - not in a pre-existing town, but in a completely new location. What word do you use to describe this encampment? I've thought about both "fort" and "camp," but both for some reason sound particularly modern to me. Could anyone help me out here - especially, say, someone with access to the online Oxford English Dictionary, which I just recently lost access to? Thanks! --Brasswatchman 17:30, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Garrison? --Kjoonlee 18:42, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

How about "castle"—for example, the castles that dotted the March of Wales in the Middle Ages? Wareh 20:39, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

bastion, fortress, keep, donjon, redoubt - note some of these have a specific not general meaning.87.102.2.106 22:06, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

By the way 'fort' is from 'fortis' latin meaning strong - usually a fortified trading centre.

Camp is also from latin meaning 'levelled ground' - so it looks like both would be roman ie pre 1000AD.

Castle 'sounds' best - note though if you are a 11th C english king you might use french to describe it. (the kings were french)87.102.2.106 22:11, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

from Castle#Definition "The word "castle" (castel) was introduced into English shortly before the Norman Conquest to denote this new type of fortress, then new to England, brought in by the Norman knights" - so maybe "castel" would be a good choice.87.102.2.106 22:18, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the time range is very broad to be narrowed to one language: in rough order, the kings in that time range would have used Old English (probably West Saxon), Danish, West Saxon, French, and Middle English. - Nunh-huh 22:22, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Also try looking at or searching with the term motte and bailey it might turn up some related terms.87.102.19.87 22:52, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Sweet. Probably will go with some form of "castle," then. Thanks for your help, everyone. --Brasswatchman 03:42, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

If you're a slightly earlier king of Wessex, you might want burh. Adam Bishop 14:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

According to the OED, "garrison" (as a noun) is first recorded in c.1430, "camp" in the military sense in 1528, "encampment" in 1598, "fort" in 1568, "fortress" in c.1330, "redoubt" in 1608. All surprisingly late. -- Necrothesp 16:13, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] meaning of holocaust

hey, the wikipedia article holocaust says that it is derived from the greek meaning something burnt (to be used as a sacrifice). this seems obviously quite far removed from its current meaning. I wonder when people started referring to the WW2 genocide as such. also, given the original postive meaning of the word, wasnt it it highly controversial to use it to mean genocide? thanks 87.194.21.177 18:45, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

It seems that the word holocaust (lower-case) had been used for devastating fires and destructions long before the Holocaust (capitalized), cf. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/holocaust. 惑乱分からん 19:17, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't know the detailed history, but the word "holocaust" was chosen specifically for its resonance with Jewish terminology, specifically, not just any sacrifice, but the Hebrew term `olah, which in Greek is holokautōma. This refers to a whole burnt offering. You can see all occurrences of the noun in the Hebrew Bible here under #5930. Wareh 20:34, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

From the Oxford English Dictionary: "The specific application was introduced by historians during the 1950s, probably as an equivalent to Heb. ḥurban and shoah ‘catastrophe’ (used in the same sense); but it had been foreshadowed by contemporary references to the Nazi atrocities as a ‘holocaust’ (sense 2 c): see quots. 1942-49." I don't think the word ever had positive connotations; it was at best neutral until it became associated with genocide. -- Mwalcoff 02:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I had written when I didn't have easy access to the OED, and I should have given more weight to what Wakuran had pointed out—the longstanding English usage to refer to devastating massacres. While agreeing unequivocally that I'm sure no one ever meant the term to have "positive connotations," I'm still left wondering whether the application to the Nazi mass murder was first made, and first caught on, in total obliviousness to the origin of the term as a reference to Jewish ritual. In reaching for "an equivalent to Heb. ḥurban and shoah," was this really simply the closest English equivalent, with its origin as a translation of Heb. `olah irrelevant? Wareh 15:06, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

we have an article on holocaust (sacrifice). dab (𒁳) 20:37, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Myrtle

What does the name 'Myrtle' mean? For example, 'Thomas' mean 'twin'. 68.250.184.101 19:03, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Myrtle plant? 惑乱分からん 19:13, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Yup. --NorwegianBlue^talk 19:57, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

And, according to the Online Etymological Dictonary, myrtle comes from the Greek word for the plant [1], which in turn comes from a Semitic root meaning "bitter" [2]. Probably more information than was wanted, but I personally like tracing name and word etymologies as far as they will go.--Krsont 00:34, 18 February 2007 (UTC)