Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 February 15

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[edit] February 15

[edit] MLA style

I am writing a paper for school. My question is. Can you give the proper way to resource your web site? As in a MLA style citation that needs to have a writers resource?

Thanks,

Carl - Dallas -Student

There is a link, right at the top of the page regarding how to cite wikipedia, and there is a section there dealing with MLA. Wikipedia:Citing Wikipedia#MLA style. Not sure about the writers resource, but try reading that page first.-Andrew c 03:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
As a general rule, it's not a wise choice to cite Wikipedia for a school report. Most dogmatic teachers insist Wikipedia is an unreliable resource. It is better to check the refs for the information you want to cite, and use that reference to cite instead. z ε n  06:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The last bit of advice is excellent, not just in citing Wikipedia but anything at all. It gives the teacher the impression that you have been reading exceptionally widely, especially if they check that the ref is real and not invented. BUT do a check on the publication yourself, in case the original Wikipedian invented it to give their article more authenticity. Chris Towner 11:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Catalan and Occitan "don"

Does the Spanish "don" (as in "Don Quijote") have cognates in Catalan and Occitan? Thanks! Bhumiya (said/done) 08:09, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not 100% sure, but I think that in Catalan it's en, which is now used as a kind of article that goes before people's first names systematically. For example you don't say "Miquel és aquí" (Miquel is here) but En Miquel és aquí The feminine counterpart is the regular feminine article la so La Maria és aquí and when either name begins with a vowel in either sex it's the regular article L' as in L'Àngel és aquímnewmanqc 14:04, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks! Bhumiya (said/done) 00:49, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] German colloquial phrase

Sometimes folks say to me a German phrase that sounds something like "geht schon". I'm not sure if this is what they're actually saying or not. It seems to be a friendly comment of some kind. Does anyone know what it might be? --Richardrj talk email 08:11, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

It's just that: (es/das/was auch immer) geht schon (the es being implied). Something like It's alright, I'm ok. Examples:
"Can I help you? Can I help you with that (suitcase whatever)?" "Nein danke, geht schon".
"How are you holding up?" "Geht schon...".
It signalizes that the speaker and their situation are doing ok and don't require external help. Depending on the circumstance it can also imply "Leave me alone". ---Sluzzelin 10:33, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks very much. I've heard people say "es geht" as well. Presumably that's pretty much the same thing? --Richardrj talk email 10:36, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Similar perhaps. But the intranslatable schon changes things a bit. Es geht can actually mean not good, like so-so maybe. It can also be neutral. Geht schon, to me, has a stronger implication of It's alright. I can handle it. When someone else is having problems you might even use it in a reassuring way, though das wird schon, is probably more common here.
I guess the word schon implies an unfulfilled expectation, in this case a negative one (es geht nicht) - schon implies that things are ok, despite the contrary presumption. If you ask someone: "How are you?", and they say: "Es geht.", then they probably aren't doing great.---Sluzzelin 11:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Would a literal translation be helpful? I think "schon" generally means "already", and "es geht" approx. "it goes/works" (Cf. "Things are going great" etc.) 惑乱 分からん 13:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Already is one translation of schon, yes. See beolingus's entry for possible translations. I'll give you an ambiguous example:
Huch, es ist schon Mitternacht! - Was? Schon? (Oh my God, it's already midnight! - What? Already?)
Huch, es ist schon Mitternacht! - Ja, schon, aber wir dürfen morgen ausschlafen. (Oh my God, it's already midnight! - Indeed it is, but we may sleep in tomorrow.)
The second schon in the second example is affirmative and doesn't mean already. ---Sluzzelin 14:32, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I think translating Huch as "Oh my God" is a bit of an exaggeration... —Angr 14:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
True ... oops.. ---Sluzzelin 14:46, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 :-)) Actually, in the midnight example, I think "huch" does correspond to American "OMG". Which reminds me - I should take a look at my clock. — Sebastian 0:24, 18 February 2007 (PST)

[edit] Tim Saunders

what happened to Tim Saunders?

Prodded and deleted. Skarioffszky 13:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Word games that depend on Phoneme and Morpheme ambiguity

This is a question in search of a board game or a card game that uses ambiguity as part of game play. For example, one player holds up a card that says (e.g., "ICQ") and the other players have to guess what the target phrase is ("I seek you.") or, for another example, the card ("Eye's cream four eye's tee hee.") for ("I scream for iced tea."). I seem to remember the existence of a specific game that used this device, but I do not recall the name of it.

More generally, is there a class of games and puzzles that use this specific kind of device? Or a standardized name that applies to them? dr.ef.tymac 19:48, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I found an article on Homophone Word Game. Pretty close, though not exactly what you described. ---Sluzzelin 19:53, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
This is also similar to a rebus, only without pictures. Thylacoleo 22:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I think the answer to the first question is Mad Gab. From that article I have just learned that these phrases are called mondegreens. --Lph 19:35, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I woulnd't call them mondegreens; who calls them that? --Kjoonlee 18:52, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] French

My friend says "Je suis 'futu'" (spelling of last word is uncertain because it's secondhand by mouth) means "I'm so fucking tired." Whenever she says that, we offer her "Je suis fatigue" because we don;t think 'futu' is a real French word. Is it? And if it isn't, how would you say "I'm so fucking tired"? 64.198.112.210 20:32, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The correct spelling is "foutu" ("foutue" if you're female); it derives from the verb foutre. Depending on what it's used for this verb ranges from being informal to offensive - and yes, it does pretty closely correspond to the English "I'm fucking tired". Thylacoleo 22:45, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Derived from the common Latin expletive futuere with derivations found in basically all modern Romance languages. 惑乱 分からん 00:10, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I thought that that "Je suis foutu" simply means "I am fucked". − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 09:04, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
If you came home from a hard day at work and said, "Man, I'm fucked", and you didn't start talking about some mistake you made, I'd assume you meant you were tired. 222.158.162.117 10:52, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
If I may add something: "C'est foutu" means something like "it's over", "it's lost", "it's gone to hell"
I read that futuere only referred to penetration, I guess that, sexually, the same might hold true for the French word. 惑乱 分からん 14:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
AFAIK the sexual meaning of "fuck" has been shifted to baiser in French, leaving foutre only with the generic vulgar senses. Va te faire foutre means "Fuck off", not "Go have sexual intercourse". —Angr 14:07, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
It seems "baiser" (originally meaning "kiss") has turned into the main word for "fuck". I heard "va te faire foutre" means roughly "go fuck yourself" (unless Urban Dictionary etc. is wrong again...) 惑乱 分からん 15:06, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Literally it would mean: go let yourself get (make) fucked.., but I wouldn't dare to oppose urbandictionary... Lectonar 15:10, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
And I wouldn't dare to discuss the fine semantic distinction (if any) between "Fuck off" and "Go fuck yourself". —Angr 15:58, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm, at least "go fuck yourself" has a literal meaning, maybe "fuck off" would have one, too, just that it'd be more difficult to interpret... =S 惑乱 分からん 16:23, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Anyway. There are other ways to say "I'm so fucking tired." in french : "Je suis claqué", "je suis vanné", "je suis cassé", "je suis mort", etc. --Coyau 21:07, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

To the user who would understand "Man, I'm fucked" as meaning "tired" -- are you by any chance from a Commonwealth country? I have British and Australian friends who use it in this sense (along with "I'm knackered", "I'm screwed", "I'm stuffed", all meaning "tired), but this American would never interpret "I'm fucked" as anything except "up shit creek". Tesseran 14:15, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Eureka

If eureka means "I am in a state of having found it", what is the greek for "Now I understand"? I always though eureka meant a moment of understanding, but the article would suggest finding something, unless this is an ambiguity in the word "find". --Brad Beattie (talk) 23:46, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Heureka (standard non-psilotic ancient Greek form) is the 1st.sing. active perfect of the verb Heurisko "to find, find out, discover, obtain". You can look it up in Liddell and Scott right here: [1]
"I am in a state of having found it" is a kind of ad-hoc overtranslation to capture features of ancient Greek grammatical aspect. AnonMoos 02:47, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes, that's right. If I'm right in taking Brad's question as, "What is the Greek for (again overtranslating to get at the aspect) 'Now I am in a state of having understood i.e. having understanding' -- i.e., parallel to hēurēka but from a verb denoting understanding more than discovery," the answer would be memathēka. For example, this is Aeschines' word translated here, "I am fully instructed," and in Plato's Sophist "I do understand"(here), "I don't yet understand" (here), and "I am sure" (here). If, on the other hand, Brad's question was "What would the verb to find something out mean in the present tense (as opposed to the perfect hēurēka), the answer would be that it would most likely describe the ongoing process of discovery. Wareh 15:59, 17 February 2007 (UTC)