Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 April 6

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[edit] April 6

[edit] Chinese character number 9

Image:Chinese character charm number 9.jpg

Can you tell me the meaning of this Chinese character before I make it into a charm? I think it means model or pattern but I'm not sure. Thanks. Nebraska bob 01:37, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The pinyin is xíng. Here is its wiktionary page. --Cam 01:53, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I noticed in the definition that the strokes and other criteria were listed. Where can I find a complete list and the patterns for every character? Nebraska bob 02:27, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
A Chinese dictionary? --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 03:32, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Not sure if a standard Chinese dictionary lists the character criteria as the Wiktionary does for my purpose of classification but that's what I need. I also need bitmaps in order to apply a very simple neural networking technique for character recognition. Nebraska bob 03:47, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I linked to Chinese-Chinese dictionaries. In these, they're sorted by radical, then stroke, then pronounciation. Radicals are sorted by the number of strokes as well. So you would get number of strokes in the radical plus the number of strokes not counting the radical, the same way wiktionary does it. As for bitmaps, paper-based Chinese-Chinese dictionaries obviously won't have that. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 05:44, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Chinese: 技 术 发 电
  • Korean: 技 術 發 電
I'm pretty sure these letters are correct, but I'm a bit curious about the second letter; the top-right point is a Zhuó in your image, but I think it should be a Cè. Eight Principles of Yong.
BTW, the first two letters together mean "technique/technology" and the last two letters together mean "generation [of] electricity". --Kjoonlee 08:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
  1. 数
  2. 码
  3. 变
  4. 频
  5. 技
  6. 术
  7. 发
  8. 电
  9. 型

--Kjoonlee 09:15, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

And if you only need a few bitmaps for personal use, then there's Unicode Character Search from FileFormat.Info. They provide bitmaps, SVGs and more.
  1. 数
  2. 码
  3. 变
  4. 频
  5. 技
  6. 术
  7. 发
  8. 电
  9. 型
--Kjoonlee 09:32, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The character editor in the program Learn Chinese by Jerome Dangu offers character recognition capability but produces extremely varied results based on extremely minor difference in input.

The character recognition approach I’m using is intended to recognize characters which have been recreated from hand drawn characters by pasting preformed strokes. A list of uniform strokes is therefore required for character recreation by method of pasting uniform strokes.

Once hand written characters are duplicated in this manner the program can attempt to recognize the character by simply assessing multiple two dimensional attributes of the character within each cell; each character being overlaid with a logical grid of cells. If stroke direction is indicated by the width of the ends of a stroke, for instance, then stroke direction will be used by the program as an attribute. Likewise any two dimensional difference within a cell can be used as an attribute by the program. A uniform stroke set used in this way to recreate hand drawn characters makes analysis by the program much easier and accurate. The program does not yet have the ability to slide characters around within the grid or change their size or orientation.

Nebraska bob 13:30, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Err, maybe you'd want to ask at the Computing Desk instead..? :) --Kjoonlee 19:45, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

In Windows XP, it should be possible to use Microsoft's character recognition. Just install a support pack for any CJK language, switch to East Asian script via the IME, click on "Pad" and then "Handwriting". Wikipeditor 11:49, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Japanese lyrics translation

I need some help translating these Japanese song lyrics "dareka o suki ni naru, fushigi na kanjou o,dou sureba ii no ka saeyoku wakaranai yo". Sorry I only have the romaji! --Candy-Panda 12:21, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Not an exact translation, but I recognize some of the words. It says that when you like/love someone, you get strange feelings and you don't know what to do. I wonder what saeyoku means. --Kjoonlee 12:37, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I think it should be sae yoku, so the translation is more like if only I knew what to do. --Auximines 13:00, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
It means "When I start to love someone, I don't even know what to do about these feelings I'm not used to". 'Sae' serves to intensify or emphasize the words that come before.CCLemon-ここは寒いぜ！ 19:54, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Arigato gozaimashita! ^^ --Candy-Panda 06:15, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] F

What is the earliset (known) instance of someone speaking the F word? As in, when did it become a part of the english language?Cuban Cigar 13:29, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Because people regard the word as a taboo (as you show by referring to it as "the F word"), we can be sure that it was spoken in English long before our first record of it in print, which is in the poetry of William Dunbar, 1503 ("Be his feiris he wald haue fukkit"). By 1535, the OED can give us a sentence that could still be spoken today: "Bischops..may fuck thair fill and be vnmaryit." Wareh 13:51, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
We actually have an article, Fuck, which discusses the etymology of the word. Its origins are quite ancient. The word is older than the English language, as it was part of Proto-Germanic. So it became a part of the English language at the same time as the English language came into being. Marco polo 14:13, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Lol it seems they have everything on wikipedia-thanks all.Cuban Cigar 07:46, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] root words in arabic

82.42.72.5 15:00, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

How do I work out a root word in arabic?

I have been trying to figure out the root of الايامى I thought it may be AYM, but this is the plural of the word, so would i need to know the singlular then find the root? Would it make a difference?

Thank you.

As a beginner, I find a good dictionary very helpful, but it still takes me a lot of flipping back and forth to find the roots. I know that الايام (without the yaa at the end) means "the days" so maybe this is from the root YWM. --Cam 16:11, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


So the singular of "ayama" is "yawma"?

I believe it's "yawm".CCLemon-ここは寒いぜ！ 23:59, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 发 电 型

Is there a better translation than "brushless electric type" for 发 电 型 ? Nebraska bob 16:23, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

"发电" means "electricity generation" so "发电型" would probably be "type of electricity generation". --Cam 16:42, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure that phrase is in popular or common usage. All my dictionaries do not include it. - SpLoT // 17:26, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


The photos of the actual characters have slight differences to the unincode text. Perhaps the difference holds a different meaning:

Image:Chinese character charm number 7.jpgImage:Chinese character charm number 8.jpgImage:Chinese character charm number 9.jpg

Nebraska bob 20:17, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
发电型 probably means "electricity-generating type". --Kjoonlee 20:24, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Google translate agrees. What would be the characters for "electricity-using type"? Nebraska bob 22:18, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
The Korean way of saying that would be 非發電型. 非发电型, or non-"electricy-generating" type. --Kjoonlee 23:02, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Google translation is: 电力用型 Nebraska bob 23:17, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Putting all characters together in listed order: 频 技 术 发 电 型 数 码 变 Google gives: "Power-frequency technology, several code changes" which makes no sense to me at all. Nebraska bob 23:23, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

数码变 is probably related to cameras or zooming. Try a Google image search. --Kjoonlee 00:22, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Wow! That is amazing. A Google image search reveals there are literally hundreds of possibilities. Nebraska bob 00:41, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Errrr, that's nothing. Just try a Google image search for "set". (j/k) --Kjoonlee 01:33, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Digital zoom? 数码 seems to mean digital, judging from zh:数码照相机. 照相机 means camera. --Kjoonlee 00:31, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
So it would be more like "frequency technology electricity-generating type digital zoom". --Kjoonlee 00:33, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Here is another translation after removing spaces between characters and inserting a extra space between #6 and 7..."...Digital variable frequency power generation technology..." Could this be "...frequency (phase) modulated digital power generation technology..."? If so it might make a little more sense. Nebraska bob 02:00, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Even better is "...Variable-frequency generation digital technology ..." found by puting #7-9 characters first followed by #1-6, i.e, 数码变 频技术发电型 Nebraska bob 02:04, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Errr, machine translation can't be trusted very much... What was the actual original order of the letters anyway? BTW, Chinese (Classical Chinese, anyway) doesn't use spaces. --Kjoonlee 07:02, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
The order can only be determined from the meaning of the characters since they were inscribed on a ring or circle perimeter with the center of 7-9, 180 degrees opposite the center of 1-6. The order with 7 first seems to provide the best (computer) transalation and less so if the space between 9 and 1 is removed, i.e., 数码变频技术发电型 "Frequency - generation digital technology" versus 数码变 频技术发电型 which gives "Variable-frequency generation digital technology" that better describes the function, although 可变相位代数字技术 which results in "variable-phase generation digital technology" would be more precise depending upon what the statement is actually refering to. Nebraska bob 22:37, 8 April 2007 (UTC)


I asked my mother, who is fluent in Mandarin and a physicist. She says that the Chinese you gave does not contain typical Chinese syntax (she thinks it has already gone through an online translator). If you want her to help you translate something from Chinese (or vice versa), just post the original on this thread. Good luckMyzembla 12:40, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Old Egyptian language

What language did Amenhotep III speak?

Since this pharaoh lived in the 14th century BCE, he most likely spoke Middle Egyptian.  --LambiamTalk 20:41, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Translation from German to English

Could you please translate this paragraph from your website, as it is about a part of my family I have been looking for for many yearsStormiegri 23:00, 6 April 2007 (UTC) The following is copied from this website and pasted hereStormiegri 23:00, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Die Magdalena Farmwald odder die Magdalena Fordewald waar en Amischfraa ass gewuhnt hot in Strasbourg, Alsace. Sie iss zu Amerikaa kumme in 1847. Sie iss kumme mit ihrer Schweschder die Elizabeth Farmwald unn mit ihrem Buh, der Jacob Farmwald. Die Magdalena hot welle noch Amerikaa geh eb ihre Buh Military-Age waar. Sie waare uff em See fer sex Woche. Sie hot fimf Schweschder ghatt. Sie waare die Elizabeth, die Barbara, die Fannie, die Katie unn die Mary. Mir weese nix meh baut die Fannie, die Katie unn die Mary. Es iss meeglich ass sie gesettelt hot in Holmes Kaundi, Ohio, awwer mir iss net schur

Thank you stormiegriStormiegri 23:00, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, it not really (modern) German, but I give it a try:
Magdalena Farmwald, or Magdalena Fordewald was an Amish woman that lived in Strasbourg, Alsace. She came to America in 1847. She came with her sister, Elizabeth Farmwald, and with her son Jacob Farmwald. (incomprehensible sentence here). They were on sea for six weeks. She had five sisters. They were Elizbeth, Babera, Fannie, katie and Mary. We don't know anything about Fannie ,Kathie and Marry. It's possible they settled in Holmes Kaundi (county?), Ohio, but I'm not sure.

-85.212.33.33 00:18, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

My guess for the "incomprehensible sentence" is "Magdalena wanted to go to America because before her son was military age". I should point out it isn't written in Standard German, but rather Pennsylvania German (it comes from the Pennsylvania German Wikipedia at pdc:Magdalena Farmwald). At any rate, Holmes County, Ohio is right; it's a county with a very high proportion of Amish residents. —Angr 05:33, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Eb here means "before".  --LambiamTalk 10:54, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks! I've corrected my translation accordingly. —Angr 11:30, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
The language in question looks like Luxembourgeois to me.ScouseMouse - スカウサーUK! 21:33, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
It is a direct quote from the Pennsylvania German Wikipedia; see pdc:Magdalena Farmwald. —Angr 22:02, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Where Pennsylvania German is the same as "Pennsylvania Dutch" – Dutch here has nothing to do with the language of the Netherlands and part of Belgium, but means Deutsch, i.e., German.  --LambiamTalk 22:05, 7 April 2007 (UTC)