Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2006 December 11

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[edit] December 11

[edit] Classical and Modern Greek?

How intelligible are the 2, if at all? thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Moffo (talk • contribs)

A speaker of Modern Greek would not be able to understand Classical Greek without undertaking a specific course of study, if that is what you mean. Clio the Muse 00:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
This same question was asked a couple of weeks ago. See the archived answers: Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2006_November_24#Classical_and_Modern_Greek. Wareh 02:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] J in 4th position

I was playing Scrabble the other day, and had the chance to get a Triple Word Score. The letter J was 3 letters away from the Triple Word Score position, and the maximum length of the word was 6 letters. Apart from the fact that I didn't have very good letters, I couldn't think of any word that is no more than 6 letters long and has a J in 4th position. Any ideas? Is there a site I can access to search for words using these sorts of parameters? JackofOz 00:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Banjos. Donjon. Logjam. Trojan. You want a good Crossword Solver. Ziggurat 01:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The /usr/share/dict/words file on the UNIX system I'm using lists 56 uncapitalized words meeting the specification, but only one is a common word, which was just mentioned. The full list is: acajou ajaja avijja banjo benj benjy boojum cadjan canjac chaja cooja cunjah cunjer donjon dooja dorje evejar finjan frijol ganja geejee goujon guijo gunj gurjun hadj hadji inaja jimjam jinja khaja khajur khoja konjak linja linje manjak masjid moujik munj outjet outjut pinjra ponja popjoy prajna punjum sanjak shoji subjee tanjib thujin thujyl tonjon trajet witjar. The list is supposed to be based on "Webster's Second", so it may not include some newer words; the spellings "hadj" and "hadji" (rather than hajj and hajji) strike me as out-of-date. It lists "Trojan" only with a capital, and does not have "logjam" as a single word. Of course this is of no help for Scrabble purposes where one of the official Scrabble dictionaries or some other dictionary is agreed on.
--Anonymous, December 11, 01:29 (UTC).
Excellent answers. "Logjam" and "banjos" are the only words above that would ever have occurred to me - but didn't. "Toejam" also dropped into my head just now. JackofOz 01:35, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
You could always consult a ouija board.--Shantavira 09:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
He he. I'll try that next time I'm playing Scrabble with a medium. JackofOz 03:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Why has no-one thought of ninja? СПУТНИКCCC P 03:49, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Cowabunga! (They're not as smart as you, that's why.) Thanks. :) JackofOz 23:57, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Has anyone mentioned feijoa yel? Grutness...wha? 05:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I'll add it to my mental list. Thanks, Grutness. JackofOz 00:14, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I like sex, sex is good!

[edit] Old German Word for "tank"

I am trying to confirm that the old German word for "tank" was "schutzengrabenvernichtungsautomobile". I would appreciate any help. Thanks.

I know we Germans are very good at inventing complicated words in bureaucratic contexts, mostly by using compound words like Schützengrabenvernichtungsautomobil (that would be be a correct singular form), but I've never heard of that word, and the German Panzer article has nothing about it. Google's search results make me believe it's just a joke by someone who wanted to invent a funny German word for tank. --Dapeteばか 09:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree; it seems absurdly complicated, especially as those Germans who first saw tanks would be ordinary front line soldiers. For them Panzerkampfwagen would be a more exact description. Clio the Muse 09:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Pre WWII german tank AV7 is referred to as Sturmpanzerwagen, or Schwerer Kampfwagen in pages I have found. Can't discount the above long name though.
Looking at A7V quote "..name is probably derived from the Allgemeines Kriegsdepartement 7 Abteilung Verkehrswesen ("General War Department 7, Branch Transportation")" and In German the tank was called Sturmpanzer-Kraftwagen (roughly "assault armoured motor vehicle"). Given that a web search for "schutzengraben........." turns up next to nothing I'd guess it's a made up 'cod-german' name; though if it were correct it would seem to refer to the British Mark I tank rather than any home grown vehicle since the A7V doesn't seem very good at crossing trenches..87.102.44.80 18:30, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
This German WWI photo uses the words "tank" and "panzerauto".--Menah the Great 02:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I wrote a report on World War I in Elementary School in the mid 1970's and remember seeing this exact word used for a type or make of an early tank used during the war. I remember the word distinctly!!! Ironically, I googled the word to see if I remembered such a long word correctly, to no avail, so I searched "Schutzengraben." A result in the German Wikipedia describes it as a 'contact ditch.' Otherwise a trench built to shield soldiers from shell fire, yet allow them to combat while at least kneeling. "Vernichtung" is destruction or annihilation, and "automobil"...well... So, it is a vehicle used to destroy trenches, or a trench crossing vehicle used for destruction. My guess is the latter, but it IS a valid word, albeit little known. --Richard Reiss, Jr. 04:02, 17 January 2007 (UTC) Richard Reiss

Also from the 1970's or 80's, when I was a child and particularly interested in WWI, I remember the term "schutzengrabenvernichtungpanzerkraftwagen" (-vernichtung-, or -vernichte-?)- a word so marvellous compared to "tank" that I memorized it! Unfortunately, I don't remember from whence it came. (It might have been via a schoolfriend who was a tank enthusiast, or it might have been a Guinness Book of Records entry for long words; there was a German word describing a military rank that was 84 letters long!) Anyway, even if this is an authentic word, I would suggest that this was just an official name (like the title of the engineering project to develop the vehicle), rather than a noun that anyone actually used. [A non-member who just happened to have browsed to this page]

[edit] Aranzabal

Does anyone know where the surname "Aranzabal" originates from? Thanks. 24.254.92.184 07:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

It's Basque. This website has some information but doesn't appear to be particularly authoritative. -THB 10:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What language used in mid/late 20th C. Skopje?

I have an undated, post-WWII photograph of the gates to a Jewish cemetery in Skopje (formerly Yugoslavia, now Republic of Macedonia).

Underneath the Hebrew text are the words in block letters: " IZRAELITSЌO POKOPALIŠČE " (the diacritics being my best guess). My questions:

  • What language is this?
  • What does the text mean?

-- Many thanks, Deborahjay 07:34, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Pokopališče is Slovene for "cemetery", which is kind of surprising for Skopje. "Ќ" is not a letter in modern Slovene, but if the diacritic is wrong, it might be Slovene for Israelite - a word most often used in those days as a synonym for Jewish. "Jewish cemetery" is the logical translation, and Slovene the most likely language. --Diderot 08:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the mark at the upper left of the capital letter "K" is indistinct in the photo. Your suggested translation is excellent for the context. As for the Slovene, I'm captioning this "a regional language, possibly Slovene." Hope that's suitable... and I note with appreciation your remark about "Israelite" for "Jewish" -- a bane too often treated literally (as though a cognate) in irresponsible translations to English. Thanks! Deborahjay 09:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

It was written in Macedonia, therefore its Macedonian language. If you look at the Macedonian alphabet you will see it has the letter Ќ. While it is strange that its written in Latin script (rather than Cyrilic) its not unheard of as can be seen in Romanisation of Macedonian. Shinhan 10:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Shinhan, I've updated my (conveniently electronic) text accordingly. It's likely to be some time before I might be able to confirm further details about the history of this sign. -- Deborahjay 10:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it can be Macedonian. "Ќ" is a Cyrillic letter - it's not present in Macedonian transliterations. Besides, I can't find any reference to pokopališče as a word for "cemetery" in Macedonian. The only words I can find for it in Macedonian are cognate to the south Slavic root globl- or to the Turkish mezar-. It wasn't until after WWII that Macedonian was codified as a language different from western dialects of Bulgarian, and Bulgarian has never been written with the Roman alphabet, so a pre-WWII inscription in Macedonian is pretty unlikely. It is odd to find Slovene so far south, and I'd consider Serbo-Croatian plausible if pokopališče is a rare or archaic word for cemetery in Serbo-Croatian. It's possible because pokopati is, I think, the perfective of "to bury" in Serbo-Croatian. But I think it's unlikely that it's Macedonian. -- Diderot 11:07, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Your remarks are most convincing, Diderot, in light of the limited information available. Perhaps the Skopje Jewish community (whose cemetery this is) might have been an enclave of immigrants from neighboring countries at some point, thus speaking and writing another language besides or instead of the local Macedonian. (Similar to the various first-generation immigrant subcultures in my own Western Galilee, who retain their homeland's language along with their acquired Hebrew even in quasi-official community usage.) -- Thanks, Deborahjay 12:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

It's definitely Slovenian, but I don't have any explanation how it got to Skopje (are you positive it's Skopje?) There were numerous Slovenian refugees to Serbia during WWII, so it might be a reason, but I'm wild-guessing. Diacritic on "Ќ" should not be there — maybe a damage on the inscription or photo? The only reference I googled for "Izraelitsko Pokopalisce" is the one in Nova Gorica; another one says that the one in Gorica is "the only preserved Jewish Cemetery in Slovenia". Duja► 10:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Drug eluting stents

Template:Strict The above template is included to publicize the new template now available by typing:

{{strict}}

My question is about the name of this medical device. I believe "elute" means "to remove (adsorbed material) from an adsorbent by means of a solvent". Therefore, the stent does not "elute" drugs, but, rather, the blood "elutes" the drug from the stent. Do you agree that this is an incorrect usage ? I think "drug coated stent" is much more clear. StuRat 13:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

If you don't mind some feedback on the wording: do you actually mean "avoid", or perhaps rather (what I'd suggest) "refrain from"...? -- Deborahjay 13:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Good point, would "avoid adding" also work ? StuRat 16:50, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Probably - I think I see your point, that it's preferable for colloquial language. Good going with the template! Deborahjay 21:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, but I didn't create it, I'm just helping to publicize it. StuRat 22:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Back to your question. I agree with you. The wording is not descriptive of the stent, so it may have been coined as a description of the drug delivery system - a "drug eluting system" (system = artery + stent + coating + blood) being one where drug is eluted from the stent by the blood. My own opinion is that it is too late to change that, and one would probably have to go along with general usage for the title of the article. I have heard one talk about how the stent elutes the drug into the blood stream and the blood vessel wall, a case of a person knowing very well what they are talking about, but not necessarily what they are saying. And it sounds so much more high-tech to say "eluting" (cool 'n classy like chromatography) than it is to say "coated" (boring like barn door paint) or "medicated" (plain like pimple cream). And high tech sells, so the makers and advertisers (including doctors) will likely continue abusing the language. The companies and their advertisers probably thought a lot about that. I would suggest that the technically correct names and the meaning of elute be given somewhere. My question would be: If one leaves the article title as it is, would redirects for the alternative names be necessary? -- Seejyb 22:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the comments. I hate needlessly complex terminology with a passion, myself, or should I call myself a "complexificationaphobe" ? :-) StuRat 03:56, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] first verse of French poem that begins, "quand vous serez veille et decrepit" by whom?.

quand je seris vielle et decrepit

I think Pierre de Ronsard is the person you are looking for. An English poem that goes like that is by Yeats [1]. --thunderboltz(Deepu) 14:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I think the Ronsard sonnet you mean is this one. (No decrepitude per se here, but I consider it less likely you're looking for this Bernard Joyet lyric "Vivez, prenez de la bouteille, / Rev'nez quand vous serez bien vieille, / Ridée, décrépite, édentée, / Ça peut m'tenter..." For more, click on "quelques textes" here.) Wareh 22:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] what does this mean?

I recently bought a needlepoint of this saying, and am curious as to what it says and in which language:

Dankeno ruckwarts mutig vorwarts glaubig aufwarts

you may email me at: <removed to protect you from Spam>—Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.187.0.72 (talk • contribs)

I think that there are some typos and that it should be
Dankend rückwärts
mutig vorwärts
gläubig aufwärts
It is German, and it means "Thanking (thankfully) backward, courageously forward, faithfully (devoutly) upward". It seems to be a proverb. Marco polo 16:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The implied verb with those expressions is something like, "Let us look" or "We ought to look." Wareh 22:51, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] english

what is the opossite of eagle? i mean if eagle is a male then what would be his female.

Both sexes are eagles. Sexes of birds tend not to be differentiated by name except in game birds or poultry, where this is of more significance to people, but female birds of any most species can be termed hens.--Shantavira 18:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Shantavira, according to the eagles article, they're ALL male. Apparently for eagle, they're just called male and female, not even hens for females: see [2] -THB 21:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
OK Take It Easy, I'm a New Kid in Town.--Shantavira 09:03, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
You guys and your puns; One of These Nights you'll Take It to the Limit and wind up as Reference Desk Desperados, though I Can't Tell You Why.---62.65.129.85 10:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Everyone just Get Over It. -THB 10:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
There's going to be a Heartache Tonight if this continues! Though maybe in The Long Run it'll be better for everyone. - Taxman Talk 19:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I've got to get out of this place, if it's the last thing I ever do. :) JackofOz 23:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Alright, you blew the theme. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. You're coming down to the station. - Taxman Talk 03:55, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Aw, that's pretty tough. Eagles are animals too. JackofOz 23:59, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
This discussion has Already Gone on long enough ...  :) Engineer Bob 01:43, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Farsi script translation

Hi all,

Although I have put in hours of internet search time, I have yet to find a good source showing the Persian last name "Shirazi" written in Farsi. I'm curious if anyone here can help, or at least offer a redirect to a better source of information. In addition, written Farsi often operates like cursive in English (to the best of my knowledge), with several letters being written continuously, connected together. This has been the main point of difficulty for me. "Shirazi" is my last name (I'm half-Persian, but can't read/write Farsi), and I would love to finally have a reliable source for what this would look like in said script. Thanks in advance... -Matt128.138.114.149 22:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Shirazi is a family name of Hafez (poet). Cutting and pasting from there: شیرازی
The spacing may not look quite right in your browser. Note that Persian is written from right to left. "Hafez Shirazi" is written more artistically in this image (everything from the long, wavy, horizontal-ish stroke, and on to the left is "Shirazi"). Also see this street sign (the largest-printed word, blue against white, is "Shirazi"). Wareh 00:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Wareh, thank you so much. The version in calligraphy is exactly what I was looking for. Not to be too demanding, but would you (or anyone else) have further examples of Shirazi in calligraphic Farsi? -Matt

Well, here's the email contact form for a Persian calligrapher whose name is Shirazi. Try dropping him a line and telling him about your dream to see the name you guys share in lovely lettering...? Wareh 03:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks again, Wareh. I really appriciate your effort. I will try to contact the calligrapher you tracked down, and see what he can do for me... some of his work might make an amazing Christmas (or norouz!) gift for my dad... I really appriciate it. -Matt 128.138.230.137 05:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] arawakan online language dictionary

I'm looking for an online arawak language translation dictionary i'm particularly interested in finding the word fashion in arwak translation--Hnives 23:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)Hnives

"Arawak" covers a lot of ground, most of it cemetery ground. Different tribes were grouped under that label, and most of them died out before any kind of modern documentation about them existed. The Taíno are the only ones to have made it into the industrial age. There is a Taíno dictionary online at taino-tribe.org, but it's pretty thin. --Diderot 16:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bye vs. Cya

Why is it that in the realm of instant messaging and SMS-ing, that a simple "bye" is considered ruder than vs its derivitaves (ie: Buh Bye, ttyl, cya, etc.)? Who establishes chatroom etiquettes? 61.5.56.28 23:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't say it's ruder, however, not using "cya" or derivatives implies that the user might not talk to the recipient again. --Wooty Woot? contribs 23:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd say that without the benefit of inflection, "bye" sounds very abrupt, like it's coming at the end of a fight or something. "Buh bye" gets around that by adding an extra, softer syllable. As for who sets etiquette... no one in particular. It just sort of emerges, in my opinion. —Seqsea (talk) 23:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Is "bye" considered ruder? If someone said "buh bye" to me, I would think of the SNL sketch, where the phrase is quite rude. So... which chat rooms and whose SMSs are we talking about? In fact, I would also consider "cya" ruder than "see ya" and even "ttyl" more coloquial than "later!" (though not rude). Perhaps, because "bye" is a preset message on some phones? Or that most of the other phrases are longer than "bye"? — vijay (Talk) 01:03, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Bye, as in as its own sentence at the end of an SMS or instant messaging, (windows Live, Yahoo, etc.) A rough outline of the SMS from my friend was "ga tak megerti maksudmu. aq akn pergi makan.bye" (I don't understand your meaning. I am going to go eat. Bye.) My phone deletes SMS's after a day (tiny memory, this thing is probably from 98 or something like that), so I don't have the exact sms. I want to explain to her why I got the impression she was mad at me. Maybe its just a location or personal preference for bye, however. Aku tak tahu. Crisco 1492 09:19, 12 December 2006 (UTC)