Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2007 October 6

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[edit] October 6

[edit] What poem

Can anyone help in naming a poem, a while back in a radio program about coal mining songs, a contributer quoted a poem with a line that went something along the lines of mining being the "harvesting the fruits of an ancient sun" , I think it was by a Welsh poet but I didn't catch the name of the poet or the poem. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by KTo288 (talk • contribs) 00:11, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm...kinda tangentially related, but is In Memoriam: the Poet’s Grandmother what you're looking for? There, husband, you harvested me cold coal, / Gathered from an ancient sun, the blood of/... --YbborTalk 01:20, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, I think this is the poem, sounded better when read by who ever it was on the radio. KTo288 16:54, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] During the Break/When we Come Back

When a television host/narrator says, "during the break" or "when we come back" in a pre-recorded show, do they generally take a break for the amount of time the commercials last, or can their break take much longer than that? --Silvaran 03:55, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I recently competed in a pre-recorded TV quiz show. The breaks varied from half an hour to just a few seconds. -- JackofOz 04:03, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Which show and how did you do? DirkvdM 08:40, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Modesty (not to mention failure) prevents me from saying. Besides, you wouldn't want me to break with long tradition and pierce my "aura of enigmaticism", would you Dirk? -- JackofOz 08:53, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I suppose that on most quizzes you won't do too well with enigmatic answers. Unless they're Quite Interesting. DirkvdM 17:40, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Camprio - painter, biography

I am attempting to find more information about the painter Camprio. After perusing Wikipedia & Google, the only biographical information I have found is sparse & confusing. Further, there appears to possibly have been 3 men alive about the same time, all with the same name, adding to the confusion.

What I have found so far from owners of his paintings via the information on the back of their paintings:

His birth: If he was born in 1895, it was most likely in Trieste. If he was born in 1910, 1912, 1927, 1937, or 11May1941, he was most likely born in Italy, specifically Milan. Are these two different men?

Did he receive his education at the Academy of Arts in Rome, the South Kensington School of Arts, and the Royal Academy of London, or did he study at the Academy of Art in Amsterdam? If in Rome, did he study under Professor Ranzi?

Was his first name Manuel, Hendrik, or Giuseppe? Did he paint in Holland or Capri? Did he marry a Dutch woman & live in Holland?

Do paintings have numbers like the books do with ISBN? Two paintings have registry numbers of 25-0073854 & 3081-700.

The artist I am principally interested in paints small adobe style houses along a small white sandy beach with blue water, a fishing boat and mountains, e.g.: http://cgi.ebay.com/Camprio-Itialian-Coastal-Scene-Oil-Painting_W0QQitemZ130151854132QQihZ003QQcategoryZ20136QQcmdZViewItem There is another artist that also goes by the name of Camprio, living about the same time, that paints stills versus beach scenes, & uses a completely different style of painting: http://www.burchardgalleries.com/auctions/2002/sep2202/l165.jpg The most prominent clue that this isn't the same artist is the signature.

Two Camprio works were auctioned last year:

  • "Peisaj Mediteranean" 26Feb06
  • "Fischerdorf Am Gardasee" 22July06, Giuseppe Camprio

One Certificate of Authenticity states: "Manuel Camprio is the artist name for Charles Lombard that he uses for lakescenes and landscapes. It is his wife's name who is an artist as well.The couple travel very much by housewagon along the coast of the mediterrenian, but return to Holland where actually they are living. French born and educated in Paris they migrated on account of war in 1939. They have no children and live their bohemian life."

Thank you for your help. Sincerely, Gpfx 08:38, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like the certificate of authenticity nailed it. Paintings don't have ISBN-style numbers. --Wetman 21:31, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
That's quite an elusive artist you have there, with all these postings of people at Fine-art.com having contradictory information and trying to find out more. One person writes that the following is taped on the back of a Camprio painting: Born in 1937 in Milan, Italy. Received his education at the Academy of Arts in Rome and also attended the South Kensington School of Arts and the Royal Academy of London where his paintings were exhibited for many years. His works have been shown in the most noteworthy galleries and museums throughout the art capitals of the world and he was a most distinguished artist of his time. Well, that's clearly made up. I don't know when "his time" was supposed to have been for someone born in 1937, but if this is only half true the web should be aswarm with information about this painter. As you wrote, according to various descriptions he was born in 1895, 1910, 1912, 1927, 1937 and 1941, in Holland, Trieste and Milan, and he studied variously in Amsterdam, Rome, Milan, and London; he is also married to a Dutch woman and unmarried. The Dutch connection is a recurring theme. Based on the style and themes of the paintings, I think this is all one and the same artist. Is it possible that the artist made up such mystifications him/herself?  --Lambiam 22:25, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Renting.

Does renting a movie help support the people that made it? How does the process work? Do rental companies pay a flat fee for the rights to rent it out or do they give a portion of the profits from each rental? --SeizureDog 09:08, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if places like Blockbuster or Hollywood Video have different arrangements but as for the smaller mom & pop stores, they buy a copy of the movie from a distributor. Let's say they pay $50 for the copy (their prices are higher). If they rent it out for $5 then they have to bet whether it will be rented at least 10 times. Once they've rented it out at least ten times, then every time they rent it out after that is profit. This is of course not counting have to pay for overhead such as the electricity for the lights, heat, the lease on the store property, etc. Dismas|(talk) 09:48, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What are Tories?

in reading extracts from some old Irish verse i came across this

'Ho! brother Teig, what is your story? I went in the wood and shot a tory; I went in the wood and shot another; was it the same or was it his brother.'

its from the seventeenth century. is this something to do with the english political party or is it something else? I'm really puzzled. There cant have been many tories in Ireland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.101.131 (talk) 10:51, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

A good and interesting question. Tory has not always meant a political Conservative. The word is originally Irish, and meant "a pursuer", it was first applied to the Irish bog-trotters and robbers, and from about 1680 it was applied to the most hot-headed asserters of the royal prerogative. (From Chambers Dictionary. DuncanHill 12:24, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, and its use as a political term was originally an insult by their opponents, the Whigs. -- Arwel (talk) 15:49, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
...While Whig was originally an insult directed at the Kirk party by their opponents. Algebraist 17:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Sounds like a fine example of English self-mockery. In Dutch we've got a word for this, proudly copying an insulting name to refer to yourself; geuzennaam. The Dutch article on it mentions 'nigger' being used by blacks to refer to themselves. Is there an English word for that? DirkvdM 17:47, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Academically speaking, it's called linguistic reappropriation. - Eron Talk 20:46, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

The Irish word is toraidhe, which I thought meant 'pursued person', but I am happy to give way to Duncan here, since I have not looked up the proper definition! Anyway, the word itself first appeared in print in 1645, though it was probably in everyday use well before this. The reference was to the gangs who made the open roads so perilous at this time for travellers. One band in County Clare amounted to to some fifty men, over half of them mounted. In Kerry there were even groups up to a hundred strong, and the London Gazette for July 1666 reports a fight with one band near Longford twice as strong as that. A good bit of the Irish countryside at this time was still heavily wooded, providing perfect cover for both ambush and retreat.

In an attempt to stamp on the problem the Commonwealth authorities decreed in February 1650 that all of the Irish people living in a barony in which tories had commited robberies should make good the losses, unless the perpetrators were produced in good time. When this failed to work another proclamation was issued in April 1655, with the even more draconian threat that if the tories were not arrested within twenty-eight days of any given incident, then four of the local Irish people were to be transported to the Americas and the remainder in the barony transplanted. Financial rewards were also offered, wild west style, for tories taken 'dead or alive.' Bounty hunting became something of a growth industry, reflected in the little verse you have given here, 217.42, and in the following;

I hunted him in, I hunted him out,

Three times through the bog, and about

and about;

Till out of the bush I spied his head,

So I levelled my gun and shot him dead.

Clearly dead was more convenient than alive! Still, none of this had any real effect on reducing the problem, because the local people sympathised with the outlaws, protecting and aiding them when they could. For the whole issue had a political dimension, arising from previous land confiscations by the English, particularly acute during the time of Cromwell. Little was done to address the problem after the Restoration of the monarchy, and the tories became popular heroes, Ireland's Robin Hood bands. And the most popular of all, Robin Hood himself, it might be claimed, was Redmond O'Hanlon, whose band operated from the Mountains of Mourne. Clio the Muse 00:43, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Eh? Robin Hood was a 20th century travel writer? DirkvdM 06:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Excuse me? For once Clio is (almost) speechless! If there is a joke here I can't see it. Clio the Muse 22:04, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
It's okay, Clio, you wikilinked the wrong Redmond O'Hanlon! There's a separate article for Redmond O'Hanlon (outlaw), and it's an excellent joke. Xn4 22:07, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
LOL! Now I understand. I did not check the link (now changed). Sorry, Dirk! Clio the Muse 22:24, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I've added links between the articles. Funny, I'm in the middle of a discussion (resolved now - I got my way :) ) about another travel writer who's written a book on his voyage through Borneo, Eric Hansen. Hanlon and Hansen, and there's loads of 'm. Very confusing. :) DirkvdM 07:04, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Btw, Clio, you like to read, I gather, especially on history, and Hansen's Stranger in the forest is one of the best books I've ever read. It can be seen as a glimpse of history (the way our ancestors probably used to live) by a contemporary person who really knows what he's writing about (as opposed to O'Hanlon and loads of other travel writers). If you also like adventures (real ones, not bloody novels) then this is a must-read. DirkvdM 07:04, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, Dirk, Clio reads, absorbing 'input' like the robot (Johnny 5?-I can't remember the name of the movie)) in the book store! Thank you for flagging up the Hansen book; it sounds like something I may very well be interested in. The only problem is that most of my leisure reading at the moment is taken up with 'bloody novels'! (Thackery, Ralph Ellison, Celine). Clio the Muse 22:44, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Johnny Mnemonic, I presume. DirkvdM 18:20, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Short Circuit, actually. dr.ef.tymac 19:34, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
THAT'S IT! Thanks ever so, dr.ef.tymac. The scene in the book store is from Short Circuit 2. Clio the Muse 22:14, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kilsoo Haan

Please, is anything known about Kilsoo Haan? K Limura 11:06, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, he's mentioned in the (disputed) article Kinoaki Matsuo, and Google has some stuff. What, more precisely, do you want to know? Algebraist 13:18, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

He was born in Korea, later becoming an agent for the Sino-Korean People's League, based in China in the 1930s. Not an awful lot is known about his background, other than that he was opposed to the Japanese occupation of his native Korea. He was particularly opposed to the Black Dragon Society, the ultra right-wing and nationalist organisation, whose agents operated across the world.

In 1940, Haan, then living in California, discovered that Kinoaki Matsu, a Japanese intelligence officer and member of the Black Dragon, was visiting the Japanese communities on the west coast, promoting his book, which turned out to be The Three Power Alliance and the U.S. Japan War. Haan got hold of a copy and translated it into English. He was convinced that the timetable for war laid out in the book was more than theory, a suspicion confirmed when another Korean agent managed obtain a detailed map of Pearl Harbor from the Japanese consulate in Honolulu. Yet another informed him that an article had appeared in a Japanese newspaper, reporting that U.S Army Air Force maneuvers in the Hawaiian Islands would be carried out everyday, except Sundays and holidays in Devember 1941. Haan reported his suspicions to Guy Gillette, Senator for Iowa, who in turn alerted the State Department, as well as Army and Navy intelligence, that Japanese attacks were planned on both Hawaii and the Philippines. On Thursday, December 4 1941 Haan telephoned Max Hamilton of the State Department, telling him that Korean underground agents had information that Pearl Harbor was to be attacked soon, possibly that coming weekend. Sensing his scepticism Haan concluded,

It is our considered and sincere belief, December is the month of the Japanese attack, and the surprise fleet is aimed at Hawaii, perhaps the first Sunday of December...No matter how you feel towards our work, will you please convey our apprehension and this information to the President and to the military and naval commanders in Hawaii.

Nothing further happened until the afternoon of Sunday, December 7, when Hamilton phoned, warning Haan not to reveal the details of his previous warnings, threatening to "put him away for the duration" if he did. With the help of Senator Gillette and others Haan remained at liberty, taking up permanent residence in the United States. After the war he became a persistent advocate of Korean independence, though he gradually sank into obscurity. His life-and his accurate reports-may have been forgotten altogether but for John Toland's Infamy: Pearl Harbor and its Aftermath, naming him as one of the intelligence sources ignored by the Roosevelt administration. Clio the Muse 01:42, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] About Agrawal and Agrahari Vaishya

Dear sir,

I want to know whether there is difference between Agrawal and Agrahari Vaishya. I found no any material on this topic on your site or Internet

please provide the material on this topic and if possible intimate me on my e-mail <e-mail removed> —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.94.47.109 (talk) 11:50, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

A Google search suggests that Agrahari Vaishya is considered a subcaste of the Agrawal caste.  --Lambiam 21:28, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wearing of surgical masks

I just finished watching Babel and in it there is a scene in Tokyo where someone in the background is wearing a surgical mask. I realize that people did this during the SARS outbreak but is this still a common thing to see? Dismas|(talk) 13:08, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I can't speak to Japan or Tokyo, but while travelling I frequently see people - usually women, usually Asian - wearing such masks. Typically this is in airports and on aircraft, particularly when I'm going through Vancouver on my way to Beijing. - Eron Talk 15:47, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
It is quite common in Japan, if you have a cold, to wear a surgical mask to avoid infecting others. I think this civilized custom predates the SARS outbreak. Presumably they can also be worn to offer some protection to the bearer, which may account for increased popularity during the SARS period.  --Lambiam 16:08, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Interesting. Is this a relatively new thing? I don't remember anyone wearing one when I was in Tokyo in 1991. Of course, I was there in the summer, July I think, so there wouldn't be too many people with colds then. Dismas|(talk) 16:33, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, I've seen this also (in the U.S.) and always wondered exactly what the reasoning was, I assumed it had something to do with infectious diseases. Also, when I was living in the Phoenix area I would occasionally see Asian women walking around with deployed umbrellas, which I assume was to protect their skin from the desert sun, but which still always struck me as incongruous and gave me a chuckle. 38.112.225.84 20:07, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I've seen various pop culture references to wearing cold masks from at least the late 1970s, so it's not very new. You can even get them in convenience stores around Japan. Tantei Kid 00:13, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Does Frank Tyger exist?

We have found lots of quotes ostensibly from him, and a page on him seems to have been deleted from Wikipedia. But we don't know who he is or what he does to say such pithy things. Is he a real person, or a spurious source of clever sayings? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.171.0.148 (talk) 13:33, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

He clearly exists in some form. See a page here which seems to locate him in Trenton, New Jersey in the 1990s. From this, it looks as if more work is needed to work out whether he is or was a 'real' person. You may be thinking of him as another Henry Root, but then there have always been writers who don't use their own names. The more useful question is 'How are all these quotations sourced, where do they come from'? If Tyger is such an elusive figure, then all kinds of people may find it convenient to add his name to things which otherwise would belong to 'Anon.' Xn4 14:37, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] UK service industry size in relation to UK GNP

What and how to determine the size of uk service industry in relation to uk GNP?— 194.6.79.200 14:37, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

You could start with the OECD web site here, which has online information and details of publications. Xn4 14:51, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Austrian navy in the first world war

I assume the empire had a navy-it certainly had an admiral (Horthy)-but am unable to find anything on it. Can anyone help? 217.43.14.30 18:23, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

The main article for the navy is here - Austro-Hungarian Navy. DuncanHill 19:07, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Philosophy and revolution

It was the view of Edmund Burke that the French philosophers like Voltaire were high among the causes of the revolution of 1789. How accurate is this view and what impact did their thinking have on the course of events? Pere Duchesne 19:09, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

We don't answer homework questions here, and that sure sounds like it was copied from an assignment. You might take a look at the articles philosophe, Age of Enlightenment, and French Revolution (in particule the sub-article Causes of the French Revolution, esp. the part relevant to the Enlightenment). But in almost all cases like this your teacher has assigned you readings which cover this specifically and have the answers they expect you to give hidden in them somewhere. --24.147.86.187 19:41, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Burke's contention was later taken up by Alexis de Tocqueville and Lord Acton amongst others, though it is possible to overstate the argument. The collapse of the Ancien Regime had nothing whatsoever to do with the 'ferment of ideas'. However, once underway, the theories of the philosophes operated like a kind of road map, indicating, perhaps, where the Revolution should be, rather than where it actually was. Anyway, I would suggest, Pere Duchesne, that you break this down into elements, trying to match particular thinkers with a particular stage of political development. I can help you on your way-philosphe style-with the following suggestions.

The chief intellectual influence on the first phase, roughly from the Fall of the Bastille in 1789 to the Flight to Varennes in 1791, was Montesquieu, particularly the ideas he expressed in L'Esprit des lois, first published in 1753. Here a liberal constitutional monarchy is considered to be the best system of government. Louis' personal 'abdication' in 1791 effectively brought the moderate revolution to an end, though it limped on for a time.

The second phase, that of the Republic, falls from September 1792 to the coup d'etat of 18 Brumaire in November 1799. Here the intellectual guide is, of course, Rousseau and The Social Contract. Though he is particularly associated with Robespierre, the fall of the latter did not lead to his displacement from the Pantheon, literally or metaphorically. The concept of the sovereign nation remained in place as the guiding idea of the Republic.

The third and final stage is the Imperial, which was not the end of the Revolution but a channeling down a different avenue. And Napoleon's intellectual mentor, his justification, if you like, has to be Voltaire, the advocate of enlightened absolutism. Clio the Muse 03:20, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thermidorian reaction

Was this truly a counter-revolution? What impact, if any, did the event have on the subsequent course of French and European history? Pere Duchesne 19:17, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

This sounds a lot like a homework question. You might see our article on Thermidorian reaction and then ask any follow-up questions you might have. --24.147.86.187 19:38, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

There is no group of people, Pere Duchesne, more prone to looking for the 'lessons' of history, and more prone to misreading these lessons once uncovered, than the political left. I have seen arguments to the effect that the Thermidorian Reaction was a counter-revolution, a view particularly favoured by Marxists, with serious repercussian in one case at least, which I will touch on in a moment. Anyway, Thermidor was a reaction against the excesses of Robespierre and the Reign of Terror; a reaction against the threat of dictatorship and institutionalised violence; a reaction, above all, to the extreme direction in which the Revolution had been taken by a narrowly constructed an unrepresentative vanguard. It was not-and this really has to be stressed-counter-revolution; for the republican regime and its political institutions remained in place. The counter-revolution, puting to one side the Napoleonic dictatorship, would have to wait until 1814-15.

After the October Revolution of 1917 Russian Communists almost invariably looked over their shoulders, seeking parallels between their own political processes and the that of the French, forgetting that all historical events have their own unique momentum. Later, from the perspective of exile, Leon Trotsky was to describe the rise of Stalin and Stalinism as the 'Soviet Thermidor' in his book The Revolution Betrayed. However, he had previously cast Stalin in the role of Robespierre, refusing, together with his colleagues on the left, to co-operate with Bukharin and the right against him, because it was the union between the fragments of the left and right that had brought about the Thermidorian Reaction in the first place! Those whom the gods wish to destroy etc. etc. Clio the Muse 02:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Clio, you really need to stop doing people's homework for them...unless of course you want them to get in trouble for plagiarism, which would be amusing. Adam Bishop 04:17, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm not convinced this is a homework question. The topics are too advanced and open for homework assignments.  --Lambiam 05:08, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Depends on what you call homework; it certainly isn't sixth-grade social studies, but it could be a first- or second-year university question. - Eron Talk 13:52, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
University homework, sure. I imagine these might also be young teachers or professors who are trying to figure out what kind of responses to expect, in which case I guess it's not really homework, maybe reverse homework :) Adam Bishop 15:48, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I do not do people's homework. Even the fullest answer I give here can only provide pointers to further research. And if you think the above could be reproduced as it stands as a full answer to the question then all I can say is that the standards demanded elsewhere in the world must be a lot less rigorous than in England; or a lot less rigorous than those in my old school, at any rate. I will continue to answer in all good faith where I consider the question both interesting and, most important of all, worthy of a thoughtful answer. Clio the Muse 22:19, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes I would dare say they are a lot less rigorous than that, and also that the students are a lot more lazy! :) Have you never had your own students incompetently plagiarize from the Internet? Even undergrads do that over here... Adam Bishop 01:06, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
At Cambridge? Never! (It's far too obvious). Clio the Muse 01:55, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it is, but another problem over here is that even the worst students seem to think their teachers (or professors or TAs) are idiots... Adam Bishop 02:01, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Georgian era ship travel, and post

In the 1790s, approximately how long would it take for a ship to travel from the Caribbean to New England, or to cross the Atlantic to America? What was the nature of international postal service at the time, and what is the minimum amount of time it would take for a letter to travel one of these routes? --π! 21:01, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I can say a word about the transatlantic crossing. In the eighteenth century, crossings were all under sail, so the time taken was less predictable than it became a generation later when steam arrived. By the 1790s, the passage from England to New England usually took between four and five weeks, but it could be longer if the weather was bad. Xn4 00:17, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Weeks. The first trans-Atlantic steam crossing wasn't attempted until 1819 (it took 29 days and used sails part of the way.) In 1838, the first nonstop crossing took 18 days - cut to 15 days on the return trip.[1]. But this was long after the 1790s. Rmhermen 00:18, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Also, "crossing the Atlantic to America" is a bit vague. For example, the straight great circle distance from Ireland to Newfoundland is about 2,000 miles, while from Spain to Cuba is more like 4,500. Pfly 04:40, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Doesn't this also depend on the direction one goes and the time of year? Alas I can't find anything on that. Maybe the wind-related articles need a better organisation. Or is it me. DirkvdM 07:19, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
When crossing the equator, there were the dreaded doldrums, a belt where the winds could disappear for weeks, leaving the ship thus caught motionless.  --Lambiam 13:42, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Virginia question

What was Virginia's first governor after it became a part of the United States? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.84.12.248 (talk) 21:40, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Patrick Henry. DuncanHill 21:47, 6 October 2007 (UTC)