Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2007 March 3

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[edit] March 3

[edit] Italian Internment Camps during World War II

I tried to write about the above subject since, as a child I spent close to three years in such a camp. Wikipedia removed it saying it had already been listed. If you check, you will find the only thing listed is Italian-American Internment camps. This is a completely different subject matter, since it refers to camps in the US for Americans of Italian origin. Italian Internment Camps existed in Italy before and throughout the Second World War. They were intended for foreign nationals who were considered unfriendly by the Fascist Government. In addition all foreign Jews were held there too. Can you help me to get it listed? Thank you. Cordially, Ericlamet 01:40, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

This is indeed an important subject. Perhaps there was some clash over titles with Italian American internment? I cannot think of any other reason why it was rejected (by some automated process?) You obviously have an article already prepared. It might help, Ericlamet, if you changed the title slightly to, say, Civilian internment in Italy during World War II, or something along those lines. Clio the Muse 01:58, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
(after e.c.) :Hi Ericlamet. I did find a section titled List_of_concentration_and_internment_camps#Italy. Do you want to fork off an article? Perhaps something like Internment camps in Fascist Italy? If so you can just click on the red link and start editing. All the best and happy editing. ---Sluzzelin talk 02:01, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
That list is a bit of a mess, Sluzzelin. Click on Malo (near Venice) and you come up with a Latin-based rock and roll group! Clio the Muse 02:07, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for pointing it out, Clio, one of my sockpuppets just fixed it. By the way, Ericlamet, sticking with your original title above, you could also start editing Italian Internment Camps during World War II. If you like Clio's suggestion, use this red link: Civilian internment in Italy during World War II. ---Sluzzelin talk 02:12, 3 March 2007 (UTC) (...errr well it's fixed now, never trust your socks) ---Sluzzelin talk 02:15, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure of the accuracy of the question, as pertaining to Jews. Large numbers of Jews were deported from Italy, particularly in the later stages of World War Two, to concentration and extermination camps outside Italy. A notable example of this was Primo Levi (although I grant he was Italian, from the Piedmont) who survived to recount his experiences in the harrowing If This is a Man and other works. --Dweller 13:04, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

No, Dweller, the point here is specifically about the internment of alien civilians, normal practice in the course of war, and legitimate in terms of international law. The treatment of the Italian Jews was something quite different. Clio the Muse 17:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I was responding to the point about "foreign Jews", in the last line. --Dweller 10:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Dweller; but my understanding is that even Jewish people, if they were foreign passport holders and not stateless, would have the same protection in international law as other enemy aliens. Clio the Muse 14:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Clio the Muse, can you give examples upon which that understanding is based? In two widely reported instances, the Nazis characteristically disregarded any "protection [in] international law" and disposed of Jews in their chosen manner:
  • Yitzhak Katzenelson and others held initially in the Vittel detention camp, then deported to the Auschwitz camp for extermination.
  • The "Hotel Polski" case, in which Warsaw Jews holding foreign passports were ordered to report for special treatment ostensibly as possible subjects of a prisoner exchange - that for those not summarily executed, included transport to "Bergen near Hannover" and eventual execution there.
-- Deborahjay 22:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm a bit confused by the terminology in this discussion. The term "civilian" includes all residents not part of the military, a great majority of whom are citizens (born or naturalized) of the country. The term with which I'm familiar in the above context is "foreign national" (of "an enemy country" or whatever). Would that wording help in searching for related information? (P.S. - I'll undertake some editing on these camps, and particularly will add an entry on Ferramonti di Tarsia). -- Deborahjay 08:22, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Connection

What connection, if any, can be found between the styles of O. Henry and Pink Floyd? --hydnjo talk 02:10, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations, Hydnjo; you have me completely flummoxed, not an easy thing to achieve, I assure you! What possible link could there be? Clio the Muse 02:29, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Just a test, checking to see if Clio could ever be flummoxed and how long it would take (29 minutes).  ;-) --hydnjo talk 02:44, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
That was evil, and I even removed my comment and continued research, because I thought you needed this to make it through the day :-O ---Sluzzelin talk 02:47, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Rats! One challenge too far! Clio the Muse 02:56, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I did indeed need your or anyone's response. It was not evil by intent and I'm sorry that you took it to be so. I posed an improbable question at each desk to do a sanity check of my own. Thank you for your considerate response and I wasn't trying to be frivolous, just curious. --hydnjo talk 03:04, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Rats indeed! Or should I say guinea pigs? Rumble wheek wheek purr. Hydnjo, it's all cool. :-) I didn't take it that way and I use the word evil very carelessly. ---Sluzzelin talk 03:07, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
(after e.c) I think Sluzzelin's joking, Hydnjo; I certainly am. I welcome all decent challenges to my intellect, and I was looking here for possible textual connections, or any similarities between musical and literary surprises. It was only when I could find nothing that I came up for air. I think there was a certain delight in the puzzle you set, and I thank you for it. Clio the Muse 03:13, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes indeed, I was quite amused. And just for the fun of it I'm reposting what I originally removed because it didn't really address style:
Lame suggestions: Both were featured (one as a writer the other as a topic) in a magazine called Rolling Stone? Uhm, O. Henry's real name was William Sydney Porter, get it ... (Madcap laughs). ---Sluzzelin talk 03:17, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Well thanks for that! The intent of my original question was to solicit a considered response and so I may have made it a bit more beguiling than intended. It seems that no matter how "unconnected" the pairing, you folks will come up with a connection. Thanks again for your time and attention, You've made my day night.  ;-) --hydnjo talk 03:28, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] i have a query please clear that kindly grant my request thank you

i found the spelling on Muslims holly city Makkah as Mecca in your web site please change it as Makkah beacuase we muslim donot agree with the previous spelling mecca beacause Mecca means a dancing and pub kind of place in English so please we want this word spell as Makkah from now thank you if you grant my request other wise it hurts my feelings thank you do this for the sake of humanity and for the sake of jesus we muslims are also the follower of Jesus and Mosses (Mosa)we respect them alot so please repect our prophet Muhammad and our holly land Makkah thank you

its a humble request from a muslim who love mankind humanity

thank you very much

May God give u the reward for this —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.201.142.3 (talk) 04:38, 3 March 2007 (UTC).

If you go to Makkah, you will find that it redirects to the same page. In addition, both spellings (which just amount to a difference in transliteration) are prominently indicated at the top of the page.
To be blunt, however, Wikipedia is not censored, and this isn't likely to be changed any further in order to appease the concerns of religious groups - it is doing a disservice to the encyclopaedia by leaving out the spelling "Mecca", since that's how most in the West refer to it. -- Chairman S. Talk Contribs 05:40, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't know what to do, but if this disturbs you, go on the talk page of the article and mention it. 'Mecca' generally refers to the city, but is also used as an idiom for something where a large group continuously gathers. --hello, i'm a member | talk to me! 05:44, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
What's "humble"about a request that a standardized spelling be changed to suit someone's preferred transliteration? --Wetman 15:50, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
In response to the person who asked the question, "mecca" does not mean a dancing place or a pub in English. It refers to the Muslim holy city, and it sometimes also refers to a place that draws people devoted to some idea or activity. You could refer to a "mecca for dancers", but only using a lower-case "m", and in this case "mecca" still does not mean dancing place, but a place that draws a certain kind of people. You could also refer to a "mecca for religious people" or a "mecca for worshippers". This use of the word "mecca" does not involve disrespect for the Muslim holy place. In English, when the word "Mecca" appears with a capital "M", it refers only to the Muslim holy place. This is how it appears in the Wikipedia article. Marco polo 17:54, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
"A Dancing place or a pub"? I don't think he understands the concept of bingo. -88.109.215.203 23:06, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Ahem. See U.S. Cellular Arena. Corvus cornix 02:09, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mahler's Third (Movement VI: Love) audio

From above, but I also want the a such file:

Where can I find an audio file of the finale to Mahler's Third Symphony? A midi or an MP3 is recommended.

--hello, i'm a member | talk to me! 05:44, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Try here DDB 11:32, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Armies of Frederick II

Heya! I already searched wikipedia and came up with a stack of useful info, but maybe someone already knows the kinds of armies that Stupor Mundi would have fielded. I need this for a wargames recreation and would like to be as close to likeness as possible. All I'm really after are potential OOB for

- Sixth Crusade Arab armies - Frederick's Excommunicated Crusader army - Papal State army of Innocent VI

By potential Orders of Battle I mean - what was the most prominent infantry troop type and in what proportion the others(swordsmen, peasants, spearmen, what kind of shields or insignia did they carry) - light/medium/heavy cavalry proportions (and potentially what Military Order they may be from - I know of Hector's Teutonics but would any more have fielded?!?!) - proportions of ranged combat units (bows, longbows or crossbows?)

Cheers to all Steven —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.140.6.112 (talk) 17:14, 3 March 2007 (UTC).

Hello, Steven. So you are interested in the great Frederick II, the world's wonder, one of my favourite medieval personalities? I could tell you so much about his political career, but the information I have on the specific form of his armies is a little less precise. I can only really give you some general indications, and I imagine you already know that, like all armies of the day, the chief offensive arm was heavy cavalry, draped in the mail hauberk, wearing a conical helment, armed with both sword and lance and carrying a long shield. However, these would come in two classes: the first with the best armour and equipment, and the second, the poor cousins, little better than mounted infantry, armed with inferior weapons, generally known as the serjeants or men-at-arms. Infantry for several generations had been something of an afterthought, or a make-weight; but by Frederick's day the crossbow-man was becoming increasingly important. At the Battle of Courtrai in 1302, for example, they made up as much as a fifth of the army of the Comte d'Artois. Most of the ordinary infantry would have been poorly equipped spearmen. The general page you need to refer to here is that on Medieval warfare. The armies of the Guelphs would, of course, be exactly the same as the armies of the Ghibellines. Best wishes from a committed Ghibelline. Clio the Muse 19:02, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Laburnum Top by Ted Hughes

Hi, I want notes on the poem The Laburnum Top by Ted Hughes. jondut

I cannot find a poem by that name, but in a collection called Season Songs one can find his Autumn Nature Notes (I-VIII), the first section of which begins The laburnum top is silent, quite still/ In the afternoon yellow September sunlight... Is it this poem which you mean? Jfarber 22:05, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Australian Public Attitudes - Men and boys going shirtless and barefoot in the community

Hey Everyone! I'd be most interested in knowing weather there's any data at all on this as its not commonly known exactly what the Australian public view is and whhere, when and for what situations its appropriate to dress in this sort of manner for males generally. Thanks in advance. David. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 211.31.9.99 (talk) 20:10, 3 March 2007 (UTC).

Perhaps, David, it's something to do with the weather? However, I would imagine that there are few men in, say, Sydney who would attend a dinner party in the fashion you describe. I think even the Australian public would take a dim view of such lack of propriety! Clio the Muse 20:39, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
The cultural attitudes to this in Australia are no different than any other Western country. -- Chairman S. Talk Contribs 20:53, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I wouldn't say that... 194.80.32.12 06:32, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Australian beach wear is relaxed. Also pool party wear is relaxed too. However, that is true in other western nations around the world. Men or boys walking shirtless through the city would attract attention many feel undesirable. Not something I can recall seeing over the last thirty years in Sydney. DDB 22:15, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Never mind the absence of shirts, could someone please tell me where in Australia men walk around barefoot in the community? It's beginning to bother me! Clio the Muse 02:26, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

At (or near) the beach or a swimming pool, and that's about it--Melburnian 02:54, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Not to snark or be too PC or anything but what about Australian Aborigines?hotclaws**== 09:24, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Hotclaws, Australians wear clothing at home, as others do, but the number of nudists, partially clad etc is not easy to survey accurately DDB 07:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not australian, but rather live in NZ so am not that different in some cultural respects. Walking around in barefeet in the central city of Auckland is something you would rarely see, maybe just a few times per week. Likewise going around shirtless, somewhat rarer. And generally only when the weather is warmer. Also you are much much more likely to see shirtless/barefeet outside the main centeral cities. For instance out in the suburbs or in small towns. In costal regions during summer would be even more often. As a relevant example I've often gone down to the local dairy in barefeet but I can't recall ever walking down myself along Queen Street (auckland's main street in the city). Mathmo Talk 01:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Starting an Investment Fund

I am a University Student, and with a few other friends, we would like to each invest a thousand dollars or so into a real money investment fund. What are the steps to set this up? I would appreciate any help I can get. As a side note, does anyone know anything about Zecco.com, the purportedly free online brokerage? Where do they make their money, on the spreads? Is its free trading optimal for our small group? Thanks, 140.180.30.7 22:12, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

The biggest issue you will have, as I see it, is maintaining the integrity of your personal credit. Married people have great difficulty disentangling themselves from such committments, and they have laws supporting that activity. What would stop one of your friends claiming all the fund? I don't know much about stock trading, but I know that there are few overheads for online brokers. Brokers don't have to make a profit from an up front fee, they can profit from a margin in the trade. Generally, online brokers are outstanding and cheap, offering an informative service to their clients. Financial institutions that deal personally have to charge more to break even, financially. DDB 22:23, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

In order to set something like this up it might be best to consult with a real live broker and not one online. They will be able to tell you what documents you need to fill out to make sure that one of you can't just run off with the money, what happens when one of you wants to take their money out, etc. Dismas|(talk) 22:53, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The youngest one having a personal article in Wikipedia?

Is she currently the record holder? -- Toytoy 22:55, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

She's the only one listed in Category:2007 births anyway. ---Sluzzelin talk 23:01, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, she is very shortly to become older than poor little King John I, who will never exceed five days. Clio the Muse 23:52, 3 March 2007 (UTC)