Talk:Red hair/Archive 3

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 RV of edit by 63.65.68.246 on 19/10/06 2 Off topic post 3 POV 4 "Rufosity" 5 Contrary to Popular Belief 5.1 Scots 5.2 Celts, Picts and Nordics 6 Cindy Sousa? 7 Vandalism to this article 7.1 "gingerphobia" 8 Red hair and Neanderthals 9 Research on red hair and temperament? 10 being a red headed man....gingerman 11 Biochemistry vs genetics 12 Too much vandalism! 13 Ehlers-Danlos 14 Lady Sovereign 15 Red Haired Pharaohs? 16 Red haired man image 17 Top image suggestion 18 Partially red hair? 19 Iranian Redheads 20 not encyclopaedic? 21 Pronunciation 22 Ginger People 23 All about Redheads link: False information 24 attitudes towards redheads (gender difference) 25 Evil 26 Are Reds White or Related to Africans?

RV of edit by 63.65.68.246 on 19/10/06

Whilst the comments made by 63.65.68.246 were valid I believe the talk page is a better place to express them than within the body of the article. See below

"The results of a 2001 study, by University of Edinburgh and University of Oxford teams of geneticists led by Harding and Rees caused some to speculate that the gene responsible for red hair may have originated among the Neanderthals some 100,000 years ago.[2] THE REFERENCE GIVEN MAKES NO MENTION OF NEANDERTHALS OR EDINBURGH OR OXFORD UNIVERSITY - THIS SECTION IS A JOKE Red-haired people would then be descendents of Neanderthal admixtures to Cro-Magnon, and would have spread from the area of Neanderthal-Cro-Magnon contact. But interbreeding of Neanderthals with Homo sapiens is still a matter of debate (NO IT ISN'T, IT HAS BEEN RULED OUT), and in 2003, Edinburgh geneticist J. Rees suggested that the gene originated as recently as 40,000 to 20,000 years ago in Europe, well after the human migration from Africa, so that the geographical distribution of red hair would be due to post-glacial expansions from Europe."

References for any of the above statements would also be helpful .Agnellous 13:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't immediately recall references on the origin of the red-hair gene, but I do recall an issue of Science a few months ago discussing the ancestry of the human species, and concluding that there was liking interbreeding between the various sub-species of humanoid present in the past. I remember this because it is the only time I've ever heard the phrase "inter-species carnality". Michaelbusch 16:19, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Off topic post

How do hypocortisolism and obesity go hand in hand? hypo (meaning lack of) cortisol, typically results in minimal to extreme *weightloss* (vs. obesity, which would indicate potential "hyper"cortisolism.Off my high-horse...please continue with discussion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.251.127.57 (talk • contribs) 9 November 2006 (UTC)

POV

Any reason for the tag? The article seems fine and there's no discussion here about it. -Pnkrockr 17:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

If you look over the edit history, you'll see that the tag was added by an IP which was also used to repeatedly remove parts of the discussion of the origin of the red-haired gene. My guess is that someone feels they were being insulted, although I can't figure out why. Michaelbusch 18:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Are you kidding? It's clear to me. Woudln't you be insulted if someone said your hair color gene came from cavemen? Personally, I don't believe that at all, if that were true, wouldn't they be dumber than everyone else of other hair colors and this isn't true of them so I don't believe it either. Faris b 19:31, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I am a redhead and don't find it insulting. -Pnkrockr 19:35, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Since we are all descended from cavemen, all of my genes came from them. Tracing back the particular subspecies of human that the red-hair gene came from isn't insulting, it is merely an interesting display of genetic analysis. Given that all this happened tens of thousands of years back, there should be no correlation between red hair and intelligence. A similar analysis could be applied to the blue-eye gene, which I carry. It has been suggested that that one evolved as a way to attract potential mates, by being unusual in appearance. This has lost any utility over time, but has been preserved in the population. Michaelbusch 19:43, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Are you seriously suggesting that having blue eyes has lost its utility to attract potential mates? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.49.97.39 (talk • contribs) 19:25, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

In any event, there doesn't seem to be anything that could be considered insulting on the page right now, and there's no explanation for the POV tag here, so I'll remove it. If anyone wants to put it back, they should explain why here. Eron 19:49, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, the way I understood it is that modern day humans and Neanderthals interbred and produced redheaded Homo Sapiens as is stated in the article as a possibility. Personally, I would find that offensive because it would imply that redheads are a devolved form of Homo Sapiens, if I read it wrong, please let me know. Faris b 20:54, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

It would absolutely not imply that redheads were a devolved form of Homo Sapiens, only that the particular gene may come from Neanderthals (and the article is clear to point out that this is disputed). Given that we share genes with animals much lower on the evolutionary chart than Neanderthals, I think you are reading that bit incorrectly. Given that a great many other people also share this gene without having red hair, I don't think you have anything to worry about even if this hypothesis is true. --Yamla 21:07, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

The logic of the cited study is as follows: between a few hundred thousand and about forty thousand years ago, there were many different subspecies of humanity, including the Neanderthals. These subspecies interbred to a considerable extent. We (homo sapiens sapiens) carry genes from many of the subspecies. Sequencing of Neanderthal DNA shows that some of them had red hair, which hasn't been seen in the other subspecies for which there are good sequences. The inference is that the red-haired gene entered the human population from a mutation in a Neanderthal. Red-heads aren't 'devolved', they simply express a gene from one of our ancestors. And, as noted above, many people who do not have red hair themselves carry that gene. Michaelbusch 21:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with both statements above, and would like to add that the geographical range of Homo sapiens neanderthalensis coincides remarkably with the occurance of red hair (Europe through the Middle East) The Great Attractor 02:48, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, make of this what you want but this pretty much disproves the whole red hair came from cave men theory to me. http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20061115/hl_hsn/neanderthaldnashowsnointerbreedingwithhumans Faris b 19:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The Science and Nature papers do give the main time of divergence as ~500000 years ago. However, that doesn't rule out interbreeding. It merely means that the populations became genetically distinct. Michaelbusch 20:00, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me there are two discussions here. (1) Did modern humans interbreed with Neanderthals. Interesting but only indirectly relevant to an article about red hair. (2) Is red hair a genetic legacy of Neanderthals? Even if it’s unlikely, it’s certainly worthy of discussion in an article about red hair. I cut out this bit:

However, in November 2006, a paper was published in the U.S. journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, in which a team a European researchers report that Neanderthals and humans interbred. Co-author Erik Trinkaus from Washington University explains, "Closely related species of mammals freely interbreed, produce fertile viable offspring, and blend populations." The study claims to settle the extinction controversy that according to researchers, the human and neanderthal populations blended together through sexual reproduction. Erick Trinkaus states, "Extinction through absorption is a common phenomenon."^[1]

Not because it was wrong (I'm not really qualified to judge) but because it belongs more properly in a general discussion of Neandertal interaction with Cro-Magnons (and I see that this article too has been updated - nice work). In the Red hair article, I replaced this section with a more general sentence about (disputed) Neanderthal/Cro-Magnon interbreeding and a link to the Neanderthal interaction article. Can we keep the Red hair article focused on red hair? Fionah 09:15, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The Neanderthal stuff is also starting to distort the organization of the article. The first section under the TOC is titled "Historical distribution". After its first paragraph, this section discusses the areas where red-haired people were found historically, and are found today. That is what I would expect in a historical distribution sections. But the first paragraph now discusses theories of the appearance of the genes for red hair, for red hair among Neanderthals, etc. I think this information would be better placed in the section on "Biochemistry and genetics of red hair". I also agree that, cited or not, content about interbreeding and extinction through absorption isn't really on-topic for an article on red hair. I'll try to move the Neanderthal stuff to a more appropriate place in the article. Eron 13:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Agree that the Neanderthal speculation belongs in the Evolution section. I'm still not convinced that the sentence "However, in November 2006, a paper was published in the U.S. journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, in which a team a European researchers report that Neanderthals and humans interbred"is relevant to this particular article. Even if Neanderthals and modern humans did interbreed (something which is apparantly disputed), this implies no link to red hair more than any other trait. Fionah 13:19, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

www.ox.ac.uk/blueprint/2000-01/3105/11.shtml Suggesting humans interbred with Neanderthals and so produced a hybrid red-haired human belongs in a yet to be established Sci Fi section. The reference given in the main text is not, as is implied, to PNAS, but is to the speculative magazine COSMOS. The current state of play is I believe as set out below.

Dr Harding, a population geneticist at the Weatherall Institute of Molecular Medicine, said: 'This research is part of other work we are currently doing in genetics. We wanted to put the red hair gene into an evolutionary context, and the model used for examining this gene is a good basis for further research on other genes. We are doing more sequencing which will hopefully give us more data that are sensitive for revealing natural selection and therefore better results and clearer answers.'

It has been widely reported that the gene originated in Neanderthal man. Dr Harding says this just isn't true: 'We have never stated in our research that this gene is Neanderthal, but at the moment I cannot statistically prove that it isn't which is why others have drawn these conclusions.' It is thought that now people are moving around the world and meeting people from other cultures, the red hair gene is being spread into areas where it would not naturally occur, such as Jamaica. Red hair is also found in Papua New Guinea although it's not known why. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.65.68.246 (talk • contribs) 11:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I think there is a difference between suggesting that the gene coding for red hair may have originated in Neanderthals and been transmitted into modern humans by interbreeding, and stating that "humans interbred with Neanderthals and so produced a hybrid red-haired human." I don't think there's any suggestion that red-haired humans are somehow hybrid Neanderthals; I would think that if interbreeding did occur, every h.sapiens alive today would carry some genetic legacy of the Neanderthals.

That aside, I think a lot of the issues with this content in this article is that it relies on second-hand sources. We have several references that talk about the Oxford study, but we don't have a reference to the study itself. We have a reference that talks about the Proceedings paper, but none to the paper itself. We don't really know what those sources say; we only know what people say they say. This reduces their value somewhat.

What can we say for certain based on the sources? We can say that "estimates on the original occurrence of the gene for red hair vary from 20,000 to 100,000 years ago." We can also reference statements that there is speculation that this gene may have originated in Neanderthals. After that, we risk getting side-tracked into a swamp of off-topic "Some say... others believe..." on the subject of prehistoric interbreeding. Perhaps a simple "Some have speculated that this gene originated in Neanderthals and entered the human genetic code through interbreeding, but this theory remains controversial." Throw in a link to Neandertal interaction with Cro-Magnons and leave it at that. Eron 16:39, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I guess this would be a tolerable approach. I just feel that this Neanderthal / Red Hair link is *someones* fantasy. Rufosity is not rare in the animal kingdom. For example, Orangutan's have reddish hair, many breeds of dog (e.g. King Charles Spaniels) have what can only be described as ginger hair. This would appear to be a common mutation that does not require a fanciful explanation.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.65.68.246 (talk • contribs) 09:09, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Eron's approach. I think the redhead/Neanderthal hypothesis needs to be mentioned, because some readers will be looking for info about it, but it should be clear that this is in the realm of speculation at this stage. Also, the debate about whether or not Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons interbred should be kept to the appropriate page and not clog up the Red Hair article. Fionah 09:57, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like scientific racism to me. The authors of the original study already indicated that the information was being taken out of context - in other words this debate doesn't even exist among the scientific community. I'm going to remove this BS. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.165.32.189 (talk • contribs) 03:34, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

"Scientific racism"? That seems a bit strong. In any case, all the text you removed was referenced and some of it was useful to the article:

Estimates on the original occurrence of the gene for red hair vary from 20,000 to 100,000 years ago. Referenced, and a useful, factual addition to the article.

Based on a 2001 Oxford University study, some commentators speculated that Neanderthals had red hair, and that some red-headed and freckled humans today share some genetic heritage with Neanderthals. Referenced. Note that the article is not saying "people with red hair have Neanderthal heritage" - it is simply saying that someone has made that claim.

Other researchers disagree, and some of the scientists who conducted the study claim this is a misinterpretation of their findings. Referenced rebuttal of the claims that concern you.

However, in November 2006, a paper was published in the U.S. journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, in which a team of European researchers report that Neanderthals and humans may have interbred, although no reference was made to red hair. Referenced, although as the reference doesn't talk about red hair, it should probably go.

I've restored all the deleted content; I'll take that last sentence out now. - Eron ^Talk 13:01, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

"Rufosity"

I removed the redirect (didn't realize I wasn't logged in) since it redirects right to this article, but at the cost of clarity. Could somebody fix this? Alternator 07:04, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

"Rufosity" is just another way of saying "having red hair", right? Fionah 13:20, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is, but many readers aren't going to know that, so I'm thinking that it might be best to reword the phrase. I didn't have any good ideas, though, so I just made the note here in the talk page. Alternator 06:50, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I've added the fact that having red hair is sometimes called rufosity to the intro. Given that this page is a redirect from rufosity, it is probably a good idea to explain that early. Eron 13:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, but what is the etymology of that word and such? Where does it come from? Personally, when I hear it, I think of dogs not Red hair. Faris b 18:12, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I assumed that it came from "rufous", an adjective meaning reddish-brown. But I'm not an etymologist; I added the line about rufosity in an attempt to explain why that term redirected here. From its use in the article, ("based on a 2001 Oxford University study, some commentators speculated that Neanderthals exhibited rufosity,") I assumed that it was an anthropological term and didn't go any further than that.

I have now, as best I can. My Concise Oxford doesn't list the word. Neither do any of the open-source dictionaries I have been able to find. I googled "rufosity" both alone and with keywords like "red hair" and "anthropology" and the results were interesting. Many links are to this page or to mirrors of it. Others are to sites that posit... let's call them fringe racial theories. None are what I would consider reputable sources. One or two include forums that make me want to take a shower after reading them.

From what I can tell, the word "rufosity" occurs seven times on Wikipedia, in four articles. Most of those occurences are variants of the phrase I quoted above. Given that this does not appear to be a "real" word, or at least a word commonly used by reputable persons studying human pigmentation, I would suggest replacing all its occurences with "red hair" or something along those lines, and then putting the redirect up for deletion. Anyone think that's a bad idea? Eron 20:16, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds bad. I agree, remove the phrase as well as it's redirects. Faris b 02:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd say that we should leave the redirect from the Rufosity article intact, because some people might actually check that, and it does appear to be a valid (if rare) English word. I've seen it in a few dictionaries after checking, but none of the big ones; my best guess is that it is archaic. However, I support removing all occurances in other articles. Alternator 08:35, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

When I looked into policy on deleting redirects I came to the same conclusion, so I left the redirect intact and didn't bother posting it for deletion. The other edits are all done. - Eron 20:35, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if rufosity itself is a word, but it has roots in Latin. The name "Rufus," in Latin, means a red head. ɱўɭĩє^{What did I do}_wrong 04:21, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Contrary to Popular Belief

Scots

Contrary to popular belief, Scotland is the nation with the most redheads. Most redheads, in the British Isles, USA, Canada, Australia and so on are of Scottish descent. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.199.52.99 (talk) 22:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

North Germany has a large population of redheads too. user:FLJuJitsu 27 Sept 07 00:05 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 04:05, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Celts, Picts and Nordics

In addition to the above I would like to make some points:

1) Celts proper tend to have brown or black hair and brown eyes - see Black Irish, etc. Celts come from Gaul. The "Celtic" countries in the British Isles have a more significant mixture of Nordic (I haplogroup) blood than pure Celts, as well as having been mixed with Picts and other prehistoric populations who may or may not have been R1B haplogroup like Celts, but clearly had somewhat different features.

2) I think Tacitus was describing the Picts in the modern-day Scotland as having red hair, need to check Germania.

3) I think the redheaded Scots tend to be lowland Scots, in other words primarily Germanic and Nordic people - in addition to the Pict blood which was historically described as red. I believe Celts did not come to Scotland en masse until later.

4) Tacitus described Germans in general as having red hair, I do not remember anything from his work about Gaulish redheads at all. The statement was simply "Germans have red(ish) hair".

5) I think the big question is whether red hair is more associated with haplogroup R1B or I, or a person with parents from each type, or associated with some particular mitochondrial DNA line. Of course it is not only inherited along those lines, but the question is whether it is a Germanic/Nordic feature or Celtic (R1B) - I think emphatically it is the former.

-- Fourdee 20:18, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I absolutely agree that red hair has its origins in the Nordic region and is too often mistaken as a "Celtic" feature. I have a best friend with red hair that gets ticked off every time I say it's a Scandinavian thing. Her mother is a blonde Anglo whose parents are English and her father's parents are Russian. I have explained that in order to get red hair both her parents must carry the gene so where did her father pick it up? Undoubtedly from the Swedish Vikings who settled the Rus. I don't recall too many Celts settling in the Russia area.

1) In all areas where red hair is found in a substantial amount, the Vikings and other Scandinavian descendants (Germanic tribes) played a predominant role in their history. Much the same can be said for the blonde gene. Russia, Northern Italy, the British Isles and even the Middle East are examples of these areas that all have Scandinavian settlers in common.

2) Evidence suggests that the Picts in the British Isles due to geographical location, early language and cultural finds, were descendants of Scandinavians and absorbed surrounding Celtic culture.

3) Red hair may be more prominent in the British Isles today, but this can be attributed to the high incidence of "inter-mingling" of genes which make its recessiveness more prominent.

4) A study of men in the British Isles with red hair proved that they have more in common genetically with modern Norwegians than other people in their communities considered to be of Celtic/"Black Irish" descent.

5) I have not one drop of Irish blood in me, yet on my mother's side of the family (3/4 Swedish, 1/4 Norwegian) we have enough redheads to rival the percentage of redheads in Ireland today.

[interjection] Vikings often took slaves to scandanavia from scotland. This would explain the gene flow. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.211.59 (talk • contribs) 03:24, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Rapunzel In Van 07:41, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Please remember Wikipedia:No original research and that this is a talk page. Michaelbusch 07:43, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but the above is not original research. It is fact that has been published numerous times by genetics and history professionals to counter the belief that Red hair has its origins with the Celts. I did not feel the need to cite sources since this is indeed the Talk page, and this is the venue is it not on how to improve the article and its contributions? Such contributions put into the article and cited would be dismissed easily by those who believe red hair has its origins in Ireland, therefore this is the perfect venue to discuss it. Rapunzel In Van 01:13, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Redheads are not only Nordics. Picts from North Africa. Nagara373 10:11, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Red hair (in Caucasians) was not only in Nordics but also Mediterreaneans (mostly Atlanto-Mediterraneans). Nagara373 07:24, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Almost no red hair between Rhine river and Ural mountains, because Nazi Germany killed redheaded around World War II. Nagara373 09:20, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Redheads are almost extinct between Rhine river and Ural mountains, because Nazi Germany killed redheaded around World War II. Nagara373 20:55, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Cindy Sousa?

Why is this in the article? "The most beautiful of all red head's is by far, Cindy Sousa." 149.167.210.127 05:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

How about because it was vandalism? I see this quite a bit on other articles. http://www.ncdes.ca/index.php/Profiles/CindySousa That's all I could find and she doesn't even have red hair. Faris b 16:19, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism to this article

I am confused by a large portion of the vandalism to this article. Where do people get the idea to add such bollocks as 'redheds have no souls?' This has been added by numerous IPs, so I'm fairly sure it isn't a single person. This is not a general 'why is there vandalism' question. Is there some strange mythos around red hair? Michaelbusch 19:04, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Probably just the usual anti-white racism that shows up on all the relevant articles... The only thing scientific I remember hearing is that redheads feel pain more accutely. Not sure if that is true either but it was published as science and reported in the news. I've also heard, both directly from them and from other people, that redheaded women have short tempers; not sure of the veracity of that either but it might be an interesting matter for research. Fourdee 21:15, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

It may be a response to a "South Park" (American television program) episode in which one main character insists that "ginger kids" (redheads) have no souls. And in reponse to Fourdee, I can attest that redheaded women do tend to be of short temper, although I believe this may be due to the propensity for the gene to be associated with certain cultural groups. The stereotypical Irish matriarch springs to mind... :) The Great Attractor 02:03, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I think we should have the page protected against vandalism as this is getting out of hand. It happens about every day and I've been watching this page for a while now.

You know, I was always told that people hated redheads (other whites as well) but I never believed it was true until I saw the amount of vandalism to this page. Faris b 01:12, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Loads of people hate red headeds especially in britain, with southpark's ginger kids seems to have feuled the vandalism -- wolfmankurd —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.146.129.59 (talk • contribs) 15:33, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

WHAT?? I can't believe what I'm reading! Why is this? I can't believe people hate redheads like that! I love them, in fact I think they're superior to dark haired people. And no, I don't have red hair but I wish I did. Faris b 19:59, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the South Park episode "Ginger Kids" probably contributed to the stereotypes. The racially insensitive Eric Cartman character gives a presentation to his class claiming that children with red hair, light skin, and freckles have a fictitous disease called "Gingervitis" and do not have souls. It is actually a funny episode, if not taken seriously. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.55.153.136 (talk • contribs) 02:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I think this explains it. South Park is the bane of Wikipedia, apparently. Michaelbusch 03:35, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

"gingerphobia"

There's got to be a better word for it than that. It may seem like nothing to you, but some of the vandalism mentioned above suggests there is indeed "gingerphobia" present in today's society. Surely this ... discrimination has a name. Is there any correct label for such a thing, mockery on the basis of having red hair (or blonde hair or brown hair for that matter)? They have a name for everything. EmpComm 20:38, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree. I’ve grown up with the word 'ginger' being used towards me in a derogatory way. I believe this word is extremely derogatory. Although not classed as racist because red heads are, in majority, Caucasians and those who use the word ginger also Caucasians.

Many words have been described to generalise a race throughout history which in today’s society of political correctness are deemed disgraceful and insulting. Why then is it still alright for newspapers and magazines to use the words ‘Ginger Winger’ etc in describing someone with red hair.

Red, orange or auburn are examples of what I see politically correct and which accurately describe the colour. Ginger is not a colour and therefore should not be used as slang. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.13.128.97 (talk • contribs) 23:22, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The BBC has been using the term Gingerism for a whileJayneyalice 15:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Red haired women are beautiful, but red haired men are very bad. My ideal guys are blond-haired guys, brown-haired guys are secondary good.

guys ideality:

1. blond hair (ideal guys)

2. light brown hair

3. medium brown hair

4. dark brown hair

5. black hair

6. reddish hair (strawberry blond or auburn)

7. red hair (worst guys)

Nagara373 07:32, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Red hair and Neanderthals

Considering that DNA evidence has now determined that Neanderthals could not have interbred with us, an unscientific source claiming the genes for red hair come from them should not be included in this article. Even if it was possible, that article is not a reliable source. I know it's asking a lot, but please think next time before blindly reverting. 70.50.52.152 01:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Please do not call edits you disagree with "vandalism". If you delete content with no explanation, you can expect that deletion to be reverted. That's not vandalism. If you have a problem with article content, discuss it - or at least explain yourself - before removing it. - Eron ^Talk 23:00, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

If you refer to the Neanderthal genomic work reported in Nature on Nov 16, 2006, be aware that this does not rule out gene transfer between Neanderthals and modern humans. The paper merely demonstrates that the populations of Neanderthal and human diverged on average 500000 years ago. This is not the same as saying that they could not have inter-bred. In fact, inter-breeding is a common suspicion based on the same studies, because of strange mutations that show up in a few humans and many Neanderthals. This was reported in Nature earlier in 2006, and was the first time the phrase 'inter-species carnality' ever appeared in the journal. Michaelbusch 23:17, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Red hair was not only in Neanderthals but also in African decent. Nagara373 07:33, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Research on red hair and temperament?

Has there been any peer-reviewed academic research on whether the temperamental attributes associated by folklore with red hair, such as aggression and libidinousness, actually have any basis in reality? Given the genetic origin of red hair, and its known correlation with variations in the perception of pain, this would seem like a reasonable direction for research, but I cannot find anything in Medline that suggests this area is being investigated.

Any statistically significant result would be interesting, whether it tended to confirm the folklore about redheads, or to refute it by confirming the null hypothesis that hair colour has no influence on personality, or even demonstrated a correlation in the reverse direction to that suggested by folklore.

It really wouldn't be very hard to do, and could be piggybacked onto just about any other study of impulsivity, aggression, etc., or even data-mined out of other, older, studies if pictures of the participants were available.

The California Twin Study seems to have combined data-gathering on physical attributes including hair color with personality tests: that might be a candidate for data mining. -- The Anome 16:34-17:25, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Update: I've now found the following studies on hair color and personality:

• Lawson ED. Hair color, personality, and the observer. Psychol Rep. 1971 Feb;28(1):311-22. PMID 5549452
• Moehler E, Kagan J, Brunner R, Wiebel A, Kaufmann C, Resch F. Association of behavioral inhibition with hair pigmentation in a European sample. Biol Psychol. 2006 Jun;72(3):344-6. Epub 2006 Jan 18. PMID 16414174

Since I don't have access to the text of either, I have no idea whether either of these has data on red hair vs. other hair colors. -- The Anome 17:15-17:18, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Why would anyone believe that if you have red hair you will have a bad temper? Does that mean if you have black hair your calm in personality? The problem is that if you question old wife’s tales, the old wife questions your temperament and you’re then perceived as angry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.13.128.97 (talk • contribs) 01:21, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I actually completely understand this statement. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm a redhead, and I have some weird mood swings, and talking about redheads comes up alot since I am one, and almost every person I talk to says "redheads are crazy!" I would honestly be really interested in participating in a study for this because it's something that really fascinates me! —Preceding unsigned comment added by MmmBoxy (talk • contribs) 00:34, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

being a red headed man....gingerman

im a 44 male with longred hair, same hair as ive had all my life, with no signs of aging and yet before being online, ive never really new that being a redhead was something sience wouold find so interesting to study......what is the point in all this research about redhairs..do i know any redheads outside the family, no i dont ...i have no neighbors either, no coworkers taht share the redhead sysdrome......and the hate part of being redhead.if i travel to the UK....do 8I need to be careful in what i say or do so i am not attacked for being redheaded.....or should i travel to parts of the world where it doesnot matter, like scotland......whats next, the judging of a person based on there skin color...no wait, we already do that dont we...whats next, the hatred of people who are human? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.2.7.20 (talk) 20:33, 28 January 2007 (UTC).

Biochemistry vs genetics

The section on Biochemistry, genetics and evolution is a bit confusing to me. What, or where, is the distinction between genetics and biochem? It seems the MCR1 is genetics, but it's called biochemistry. This section needs a bit more organization, but I'm afraid I just don't know enough about genetics, etc. to dare try it. I'd appreciate someone's help. Thanks! --Zuejay 00:58, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Too much vandalism!

We need to seriously think about making this page a protected page. The daily insults about redheads, and today even a stupid picture. The picture is visible in the page history as I've reverted it.

Is there a possibility for page protection? Faris b 15:33, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Not at the present time. User:Arjun concludes that the vandalism rate is low enough to be managable. Michaelbusch 19:51, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Seriously? Ok then. I just thought I should bring it up. What would be an unacceptable level of vandalism? Faris b 01:56, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism more often than once every six hours or so seems to be the normal threshold. Michaelbusch 05:28, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Ehlers-Danlos

Ehlers-Danlos type V has only been documented in one family and is not included in current lists of the types. Thus, it's irrelevant and not necessarily related to EDS.Ninquerinquar 03:01, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I removed it! If it only occured in one family, the red hair may have been totally coincidental and not related to the syndrome. Fionah 10:07, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Lady Sovereign

About the British slang, the London hip-hop artist Louise Harmon aka Lady Sovereign frequently uses the term "ginger" in her songs, but I don't know how this relates to redheaded people, i.e. the context doesn't seem to refer to hair type. Arkhamite 21:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Red Haired Pharaohs?

The following claim needs prof or to be clearly marked as a claim without proof.

"...Ancient Egyptians...The dynasties Tutmoses, Rammeses and Mentuhotep included red (and orange) haired pharaohs.[citation needed]..."

These are African dynasties of Kemet and there is no evidence of White or Red headed Africans in Kemet except possibly in the North during the Hyksos invasion of Africa (c. 1500 B.C.E.) and brief occupation before being driven out.

Any evidence of so called White Africans would need to be accompanied with melanin dosage tests to merit credibility. --Aunk 02:11, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

There is no evidence of Black Pharaoh's. This is purely a Black Supuriority trick. Complete nonsense.

Pharaoh Ramses II had red hair. There have been many tests by Egyptian (Arab) researches who officialized he had red hair. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abu Musab al-Suri (talk • contribs) 10:30, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Red haired man image

Since there is a user insisting that the picture Image:Gingerkid.jpg is more appropriate to the article than Image:RedheadedGuy.jpg, perhaps we should discuss it. The RedheadedGuy image is solely of an individual with red hair. The other image, Gingerkid, shows an individual with red hair and a beer can. I feel RedheadedGuy is more encyclopedic. Please, express your opinion before we continue the RV war. Perhaps we can gain concensus. Thanks ZueJay (talk) 03:28, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

The images are: Image:Gingerkid.JPGZueJay (talk) 03:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the RedheadedGuy(picture 1) is more encyclopedic, as it is just a picture of a boy with red hair, while the Gingerkid (picture2) picture has other distractions, such as the beer can and the other person's arm. Pnkrockr 03:35-03:44, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[interjection] red haired guys have nearly auburn (female have higher pheomelanin/eumelanin ratio than males) Nagara373 08:11, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

User:Illbill1000 has edited Image:Gingerkid.jpg to Image:head187.jpg and installed it on the page. The image subject appears to have "red eye" thus the original Image:ReadheadedGuy.jpg still seems better. The new image is:
Image:Head187.JPG ZueJay (talk) 03:56, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Apart from that, the beercan dude pic is only a quarter the resolution and has some really bad anti-aliasing going on - Alison^☺ 05:07, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

The first image is not perfect, but better than the second/new one. -- nae'blis 18:49, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

It's all just vandalism. Leave the "redheadedguy" pic as it is. Vala M 18:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Another go at replacing this image has been made - the newly proposed image has an awful lot of background "clutter" that the original does not. ZueJay (talk) 17:53, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

And another red headed guy image has been replacing the current image.The requested image has clutter in the background and the red hair is not as obvious as in the original picture. Image:L 30aa264da902a7bba01b1d36e600bfcc.jpg Pnkrockr 01:49, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Image speedy deleted as unlicensed and used in attacks. Editor in question repeatedly reverted to their version and inserted "[blah blah] is gay". Blocked 24 hours - Alison ☺ 02:06, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Red haired guys have slightly light brownish than red haired women. Red hair in males, less reddish than red hair in females. Nagara373 07:40, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Top image suggestion

How about a single image at the top showing a variety of red-hair colours of both sexes, much like the composite images I've seen in animal and World War II. Richard001 06:49, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea to me. Should we include red-haired celebrities such as Nicole Kidman and David Caruso? Fionah 08:33, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

No, not unless you're getting pics of people with firery red hair like the 2 in use now. Some people, you can't tell that they have red hair like Nicole Kidman. Vala M 13:16, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree we should use the two pictures already there, they clearly display the hair and the typical redhead complexion. But a composite image should also include different shades such as auburn. Fionah 08:14, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I've seen Nicole Kidman go on record as saying that she dyed her hair ginger and that is not her natural colour. Goldgreen 7 May 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Goldgreen (talk • contribs) 12:34, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not surprised, she didn't appear to have any features common to redheads. Vala M 20:35, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

What are "features common to redheads"? AFAIK, the only feature definitely associated with red hair (other than the hair color itself) is pale skin with a tendency to freckle, and Kidman certainly has that. I wouldn't assume anything about her natural hair color on the basis of her features. Fionah 09:24, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, these features are:

*Blonde and/or red eyebrows and eyelashes

*Numerous freckles (Most whites only have a few compared to redheads)

*Pink nipples

*Orange colored palms of the hands and feet

*Wider hands/feet

I know some of these are probably a bit hard to believe but I've done my own research. Vala M 13:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Eyebrows and freckles, yes, but pink nipples?? And wider hands?? Wow ... - Alison ☺ 18:12, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about the last three features on that list. Pnkrockr 01:20, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow! Thanks. Anyway, it's true. See for yourself next time you see a redheaded person. The nipple one might be tough though.

Anyway, regarding the hands/feet. It's the opposite in darker peoples. They have narrower hands/feet. Vala M 04:45, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going to ask you how you did the informal nipple research! - Alison ☺ 04:47, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

You did that just to make me look at my hands, didn't you? Nope, palms are definitely pink, not orange, and if anything they're slightly narrower than average. If there's formal research to back it up, I'll happily accept that I'm the freaky one with red hair and non-orange narrow hands. Otherwise, I'll counter you're anecdotal evidence with my anecdotal evidence. Not commenting on the nipples! Fionah 07:28, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I guess I'm in the same boat as you, as I'm a redhead but my hands and feet are pretty much the same color as the rest of me, if not a little pink. Not sure if they are wider or narrower than a national average, but I'd pretty much say they're in the middle. So unless there is research to backup the above claims, I can also counter them with my own anecdotal evidence. Pnkrockr 13:44, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I said common to redheads, not present in all. As far as I know, there's no formal research done on the matter, just the notes I've taken myself. Vala M 14:46, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I have very red hair, about as red as it gets, and most of those features are true for me.

Darkish blond eyebrows, and my eyelashes are brown with blond tips. Not as many freckles as some redheads, but still a good number on my arms despite the fact that I avoid the sun like the plague. Pink nipples, yes, though I would have thought that a common feature among most of caucasian descent. As for the orange palms and bottoms of feet, not a distinct orange, but a peachier pink, on the warm side, as opposed to a cooler pink. In keeping with my small frame, my hands are also somewhat small, but proportionately, I've noticed the palms of my hands are a bit more square than some women's. Also, I do have wider feet.

Considering I partially or fully fit each of the traits listed, I suppose I would be positive anecdotal evidence. -Cassandra —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.177.130.228 (talk • contribs) 11:28, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi and thanks for sharing and proving my studies to be correct. So does that mean that we can work this info into the page now? Vala M 02:46, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

No, unfortunately. Sorry :( - Alison ☺ 02:58, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Partially red hair?

This page seems only to mention cases where all of a persons hair is red, but for me it is different. I have light blond hair on my head, but my beard is red, and the chesthair is brown, so where does that put me? Additionally, I have pale skin, very sensitive to the sun, and a tendency to freckles if sunburnt. Am I then some kind of semi-redhead? Both my parents were blond, but my mothers father was a full redhead.(62.20.115.40 00:23, 13 May 2007 (UTC))

As the article says, the redhair gene is recessive. That means that you have to have two redhair genes, one from your mother and one from your father, before you will have flaming red hair. However even people with one redhair gene may show signs of redness. If they inherit a redhair gene and a blackhair gene, the redness may not be easy to see since they will still have some melanin in their hair and skin and will therefore tan without freckles. However if they inherit a redhair and a blondhair gene, the redness may well be easy to spot due to the lack of melanin, leading to pale skin, freckles, etc. That appears to be what has happened in your case. You are what is commonly known as a "strawberry blond" in common parlance. -- Derek Ross | Talk 06:46, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure genetics work that way. A person who is heterogenous with a combination of a recessive/dominant trait will not necessarily express any evidence of their genotype in their phenotype. For example, a person with the alleles for both the blue and brown eyed trait will exhibit only brown eyes. I could be wrong, though, because I seem to recall Mendel's experiments involving roses in which a white and red rose crossbred resulted in a pink flower? (Could have been the wrinkled/smooth peas, too... not sure). The Great Attractor 01:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I not into the technical terms but i'm quite sure that there is situation where the dominant gene has some kind of defect which allows the recessive one to have some dictation of the prevailing phenotype, such as green eyes coming from sets of blue and brown eyes. 82.22.131.140 10:51, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Iranian Redheads

Upon finding this page, I was happy to see that Iranians were identified as a group commonly diplaying the trait. Most people automatically attribute red hair to Celtic inheritance. A good friend of mine, who is half Iranian, looks like she just got off the boat from Dublin, despite the fact that she has no European heritage. Amusingly, I'm 100% Irish heritage, but she possesses far more of the traits normally attributed to the island that I. Perhaps it might be a good idea to include the fact that Iranians (or Persians, depending on one's preference) can be Aryan despite the connotation of the stereotypical Nordic phenotype associated with the word? Iran is not an Arabic nation, despite Western perception. The Great Attractor 02:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

It's funny that you have to mention this. First of all, it's your own short-sightedness, then indeed, the short-sightedness of a lot of people. Of course Iranians can have red hair. Chechens, Tatars, Kazakhs, Mongolians, Turks and Arabs are known for having a high percentage of red haired people among them. Why are people always so shocked to find this out? For me it was very funny to read your thing (you, The Great Attractor). It's so obvious for me that there are many red haired people from the Middle East, Persia, North India, Central Asia and the Altaic Region. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.102.35.179 (talk • contribs) 23:36, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

First, I never said that ONLY Iranians have red hair. My assertion was that people most commonly associate the trait with northern European ethnicities, not Middle Eastern ones. Second, if you have an issue with something I said on a discussion page, leave it at that and refrain from editing my user page with snide, condescending comments without having the cojones to sign your edit. The Great Attractor 01:26, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

not encyclopaedic?

According to a Clairol Color Attitudes Survey, redheaded women see themselves as fearless and savvy. Ummm... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.0.37 (talk • contribs) 11:35, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation

From the article:

In modern-day UK and Ireland, despite being the places with the highest populations of redheads, the word "ginger", pronounced /gɪ.ŋə(ɹ)/ as opposed to the standard pronunciation /'dʒɪn.dʒə(ɹ)/) is derogatorily used to describe red headed people.

Really? I live in the UK, and I hear people making jokes about ginger people fairly often, but I've never heard them say /gɪ.ŋə(ɹ)/ ("ghinga" with two hard "g"s). That sounds like a facetious word to me. The regular pronunciation is definitely the preferred one. RobbieG 16:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm English amd I've heard the alternate pronunciation a fair bit perhaps because one of my friends is ginger. The number of times I've heard someone bellow "Ginger!" at him for no apparent reason... --Meridius 01:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Is it a regional thing then? I know several ginger people, and while people quite often use the word as an insult towards them, they pronounce it the normal way. But then, I live in Gloucestershire, so your local area might have a different slang vocabulary. After all, England is a big place, and the UK and Ireland is an even bigger area. We ought to be a bit more specific. RobbieG 21:28, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I am from New Zealand, where "ginger" is always pronounced with two hard "g"s when used as a pejorative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.89.93.10 (talk) 20:34, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

Ginger People

You should add something about ginger people. 8D —Preceding unsigned comment added by Superkittydance (talk • contribs) 21:04, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm yes I see you are smarter than most people on this sight [sic] XD --Meridius 07:24, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Er...I thought that "ginger" was a derogatory word. But then it's all over the article, although unaccompanied by other racist remarks, leading me to believe that it's not being used in a racist sense. >_> Can it be used that way? Count DeSheep 22:25, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Ya... Ginger is generaly taken as a very derogatory word. If nothing else I think something about it being viewd as derogatroy needs to be added user:FLJuJitsu 27 Sept 07 00:09 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 04:09, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

All about Redheads link: False information

The external links list a site "All about Redheads". On this site is information that is incorrect. It states that redheads do not make good soldiers and that in fact only one noted general in US history had red hair--General Custer. This is plainly false. Some of the most noted and revered Generals in US history had red hair, namely George Washington, George Tecumseh Sherman and Dwight D. Eisenhower. There is no link to contact the administrator of this website and I suggest it be removed until it's errors are corrected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Halhiker (talk • contribs) 09:36, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

In fact, I think the only general you mentioned who wasn't ginger was Custer, who was, I believe, blond! That site may not be terribly accurate o_o; RobbieG 21:32, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

attitudes towards redheads (gender difference)

People attitude toward redheads, positive or negative, different due to gender of redheads. People positive attitude toward female redheads, but negative attitudes towards male redheads.

attitudes towards redheads (gender difference):

Positive attitudes towards redheads - Redheaded women are beautiful.

Negative attitudes towards redheads - Redheaded men are bad.

Nagara373 09:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

It's more complicated than that. For example, I have a friend who is a girl and she is sort of ginger-ish, and she sometimes gets laughed at for it. And there have been recorded cases of redheaded women getting mocked or even harassed because of their hair colour. It is true that males generally tend to recieve more negative reactions than females, though. RobbieG 16:40, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Evil

Why does no one discuss Red heads being so evil? Very little scientific evidence proves that they are not evil and so I think that this lack of evidence should be cited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.250.65.158 (talk • contribs) 17:04, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Are Reds White or Related to Africans?

I ask because they do not look like the majority or whites and they do look very different. The spots on their skins is unique as well. It is almost as if you 'connected the dots' on their skin, it would turn to a brown tone instead of pink. It is almost as if their skin used to be brown and has left and the spots are the proof of what once was.--71.235.88.8 01:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)