Talk:Red Terror (Spain)

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[edit] White terror

May I ask why the "Red Terror" of Spain, in which some 38,000 perished, has a devoted article on Wikipedia, while the "White Terror" executed by the nationalists which claimed some 200,000 victims in the same period is not mentioned here or even worthy of a sentence in the pitifully brief and summary article on White Terrors throughout history? As horrific as the anti-clerical murders were, this seems a deliberate attempt to paint an equivalence between the violence of the anarchists - which was denounced by Republican leaders, in another detail apparently unworthy of mention in this article - and the state-sponsored, catholic-supported brutality of the fascist regime. 140.247.153.14 21:01, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

The crucial thing is - who did the counting for these interesting 'estimates'. David Lauder 18:49, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

A "neutral" page on "Atrocities during AND AFTER the Spanish civil war" should replace this monument to militant anti-Leftism and reestablish proportions. Also it should be explained why the Spanish Left had such ferocious hate for the Church: I do not think they were suddenly possessed by satan. The Church had done nothing to endear herself among the struggling populace, actually, constantly condemning every idea of social change and democracy and supporting the landed gentry and the rich. Basil II 20:29, 15 June 2007 (CET)

And who should write this 'explanation'? Someone from The Left? Would that be like saying that a Bolshevik should be invited to justify what they did in Russia between 1917 - 1925? All an encyclopaedia should be concerned with is stating the facts of the period, not overflowing with personal opinions and justifications (includes 'estimated' deaths). David Lauder 18:49, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
While you're at it, why don't you go to the holocaust page and explain why the German right "had such a ferocious hate for the" Jews. It doesn't matter how the murders were rationalized. Virtually all the clerical killings were of noncombatants. It cannot be explained away. As Robert Royal in his new book points out, there was "wholesale murder of entire religious establishments". About a quarter of the diocesan clergy were simply liquidated in those areas of Spain controlled by the Republicans. Is that really something you want to try to justify - or think you can? If you want to write an article on the white terror, go ahead, but spare us the logical errors. The fact that those killing may have been wrong does not mean that these were justified. Mamalujo 10:02, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Anti-semitism was rampant throughout Europe, particularly central and eastern, and whilst the Nazis may have been excessively public about how they felt, I think it slightly unfair to gather together everyone on the "German Right" in this fashion. David Lauder 18:49, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
The origin of the German right hate you are talking about is actually already explained in the Holocaust article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust#Origins
And yes, context for an event is absolutely justified. Explaining the reasons for something is not the same as justifying. Murderbike 00:57, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Alas the explanations so often appear as justifications. David Lauder 18:49, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

You could create a page on the "White Terror" or on any subject you believe is worthy of a Wikipedia article.--Gloriamarie 19:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of the term

Please provide the information about the origins and the usage of the term "Rer Terror" in reference to the described events, or the article will be renamed. `'mikka 20:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

    • The term is used by , among many others, Antony Beevor in The Battle for Spain. The term is not a neologism, it is commonly recognized and is not at all a matter of dispute. Mamalujo 22:34, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Violation of NPOV

This page differs significantly from the depiction of events on the Spanish Civil War page. It appears biased in it's reporting of the events. Especially considering what was posted in the previous note. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tsunami7 (talk • contribs)

I added an {{POV-check}} tag, it would be good if this page is reviewed by someone who knows the topic, currently there is only a single contributor to this article so I fear the POV-concerns here are genuine. --Merzul 10:06, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I`m not quite sure this page violates NPOV, it does in the least make a good attempt at verifying, if one believes that this article makes any unwarranted statements he/she should come forward. It would be helpful if there would be some kind of 'white terror' article as well. --Isolani 16:51, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
The citations from the Payne book were certainly selective. I've now fixed this. Payne makes it clear that the "White" terror was much more deadly. I can't at this point check if the other sources have been cited in a similarly selective (and rather misleading) fashion, but I wouldn't be surprised. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 08:03, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

This article is embarrassingly biased. The information is inaccurate (e.g. the opening sentence seems to suggest the Republican government was a communist regime organising selective murders around the nation!). It is written in un-encyclopaedic language (with vague references such as 'things like that occurred almost everywhere in the country'). Quotes have been selected so as to provide a warped perspective of the events. I don't intend to defend those who commited atrocities in the past (in whichever side they were), but this article reads as a justification of Franco's regime and a monument to those who launched the coup d'etat.129.67.88.118 15:02, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

In the spirit of verification, I thought I'd go through the citations. I found quite a bit of (mostly inadvertent) plagiarism and a few mistakes on those I could check online, so put a "citation needed" tag on the Beevor references and suggest that these and the Mitchell citations be double-checked. NB even if a few words are changed from the original, it is still plagiarism to claim such lightly-changed sentences as your own. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 07:54, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] similar atrocities occurred almost everywhere in Republican Spain??

The Spanish Civil war is always shown as a war between communists/socialists/anarchists and catholics/conservatives. To some extent, it was that. However, in the Basque Country, for instance, the nationalists (nearly all of them catholics and conservatives) were in the side of the Republic, side by side with the socialists and communists, and there was no catholic prosecution. It was also the same in some other parts of Spain.

I think the article should reflect that not all the republicans were burning curches, as it might be understood when reading it now.

Well, I think it would be obvious that not all republicans were killing priests and grandmothers who happened to have rosaries. But the authorities I've read, and at least one of which is cited for this point in the article, state that virtually all republican groups, with the exception of the Basque, were involved in the Red Terror. That is factually acurate. I believe the article does make the point that the Basques were not involved. But in every other Republican controlled region of Spain the atrocities occured on a vast scale and with Republican governmental complicity. With regard to the idea that the war was the left vs. conservatives/Catholics, that explanation is indeed a bit facile. The Catholics were not originally so universally (w/ the exception of the Basque) aligned. It was after the religious persecution in Asturias in 1934 and then again at the beginning of the war that they were given absolutely no choice - the Republicans had taken an eliminationist strategy toward Catholicism. Mamalujo 17:07, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I thought the article mentioned that the Basques did not participate (perhaps an earlier version did), but it did not. I've added a sentance to indicate their nonparticipation. Mamalujo 17:12, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name change

I think the name change to "Atrocities committed during the Spanish Civil War", conflating the Red and White Terrors is not an improvement, and I am reverting it. For one thing the two are separate subjects and are best dealt with in separate articles linking to each other and with sufficient references to the other incidents for context. Conflating the two sets of atrocities tends to create a number of false dichotomies, for example, that one set of killings was bad and that the other was therefore good, or that one side killed more and they are therefore more morally culpable. The latter confusion is particularly misleading because a vast number of those killed in the Red Terror were not combatants or even active opponents to the Republicans (this fact is recognized by scholars and cited in the article). Also the title is innacurate, because some of the Red Terror (a substantial number of the killings) occurred before the war in 1934. As to the name change serving to eliminate the "bias" in the article, User:Jbmurray already did an admirable job of editing, reorganizing and adding context to the article to eliminate claimed bias. Rather than the facile "fix" of renaming, someone needs to get down to the hard work of creating the White Terror article. Mamalujo 18:02, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.


Red Terror - Spain → Atrocities in the Spanish Civil War — Or some other alternative such as "Red and White Terror- Spain". Following this , description of Nationalist atrocities in the war should be substantially expandedc. The White Terror in the Spanish Civil War was far worse than the Red Terror, yet this, the only article, on the atrocities on the war, only details the far less significant Republican atrocities, iwht only a brief mention of the White Terror. This is outrageously POV, out of proportion, and extremely misleading and historically inaccurate —Nwe 14:31, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The name change is a particularly bad idea. For one, neither the Spanish Red Terror nor the White Terror occurred entirely "in the Spanish Civil War". So the name would be inaccurate as to both events. Much of the Red Terror occurred before the war (particularly in 1934) and, if I understand correctly, much of the White Terror occurred in the many years after the war. Plus, they are sort of apples and oranges. Which explains the great misapprehension of those who see the Red Terror article, factual as it is, as POV. The fact that Franco's state may have killed more people (over a longer period of time) does not make the killings in the Red Terror any less egregious, and visa versa. Guess what? It is possible that both events were offensive to human life and dignity, for perhaps somewhat different reasons. Conflating the two does not shed light but only obfuscates and creates false dichotomies. As I have said before, if you think too little is said of the White Terror, write the article on it rather than complain about the dearth of information on it in an article about a different (but somewhat related) subject. Mamalujo 07:15, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. --Stemonitis 08:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, in retrospect two separate articles might be a better idea, but in that case an equally detailed article on the White Terror is badly needed. I'll try set one up when I have time, but that could be a while, if anyone else here feels they can start things up please do so.Nwe 21:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

If you wish the tag removed, reduce the overdependence of the article on a single source. Hornplease 15:10, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The article is not overdependent on a single source. The article cites to Thomas, Mitchell, Beevor, Payne, Ruiz and de la Cueva among a number of other sources others. Hardly overdependent on one source. Even if it were true, overreliance on a single source is not the same as POV.Mamalujo 17:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Right, but the lead overquotes de la Cueva, and is thus unbalanced. Hornplease 17:43, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Title.

  • Googling "red terror" spain -ethiopia -soviet -robespierre gives 767 gooogle hits, 75 scholar hits.
  • Googling republican atrocities spain "civil war" gives 800,000 google hits, 6,700 scholar hits. Any questions? Hornplease 15:32, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
polling is not substitute for discussion and - frankly - we had this discussion, it's closed and there's no consensus. Too bad, perhaps, but true. --Isolani 15:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
The discussion is visible. It was not about this move, which eliminates the objections to the earlier prospective title. I do not understand the rest of your statement. Hornplease 16:26, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Agree with Hornplease's point. The term "Red Terror" in the context of the Spanish civil war is not widely used at all as a generic name as purported. Apart from google hits (which are quite revealing), I have never seen it in any Spanish history books or documentaries, and being a Spaniard and a history student, it's not that I'm not exposed to terminology on the subject. I really think the article title should be re-thought, or the article merged somewhere else. Cheers! :) Dr Benway 10:23, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

The term is the moniker which is and has been used to describe this subject. It is not a novelty or neologism in its use with regard to Spain. It is used by Beevor, Thomas, and Payne just to name a few. It is used by prominent publishers (Ruiz, Julius, Franco's Justice: Repression In Madrid After The Spanish Civil War(Oxford University Press 2005) ISBN 0199281831 pp. 10, 23, 33,40, 233, 234). It was used by noted news periodicals and dailies at the time (Crumbling RepublicTime Magazine, Monday, Oct. 05, 1936), as it is today (Tonkin, Boyd A Week in Books The (London)Independent July 26, 2006). It is also used by scholarly journals (Chodakiewicz, Marek Jan Review of Las relaciones de Franco con Europa Centro-Oriental, 1939-1955 by By Matilde Eiroa The Sarmatian Review (January 2003 Issue, Rice University)). The argument that it is not the right name for the events is weak. Not to mention the fact the the White Terror - Spain article(also an accepted term) has now been created. Mamalujo 23:06, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

If the context its used in is, as you claim, a tag to refer to the assasination of clergy at the start of and during the civil war, case rested, as far as I'm concerned *nodnods* :) . As to the White Terror article, it's only there because there's a Red Terror article. I find that term equally tendentious, and if it was up to me I'd be merging Red Terror and White Terror as well as Martyrs of the Spanish Civil War (in it's current format and projection; if it was a bio article on these martyrs I'd let it stay on its own) into an article about "Atrocities of the Spanish Civil War", or something like that. But thst's just me *shrug* Dr Benway 06:47, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

This has been discussed before, but there are a number of reasons why the merger of the two into one article is a bad idea, and why two months after the posting of the proposed mergers there is no consensus for it. One, they are apples and oranges, combining them does not make sense. Victims of the Red Terror were not necesarilly those doing the attacks in the White Terror and visa versa. They were each done for different often unrelated reasons. Two, the name "Atrocities of the Spanish Civil War" is not appropriate because neither occured entirely during the war. The Red Terror preceded it by years and the White Terror continued for years, if not decades, after. Three, combining the two creates false dichotomies which are already enough of a problem, i.e. the idea that if the White Terror was bad the Red Terror must somehow be justified (and visa versa), the idea that one "side" must be the "right" side. Mamalujo 19:00, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Yup, saw it further up in the page before, thanks for the reminder :) . I was just commenting. However, in most of the history books I've checked (Payne, and others) they are both dealt with in the same section, as related phenomena. In Beevor, where it is given its own chapter, it is treated in the context of an analysis of events and offers numerous counterbalances and comments, which this article does not and shows no intention of doing. And I heavily disagree with your argument against the "Atrocities of the Spanish Civil War" heading line and merge, mainly because all of these atrocities occured within its temporal and historical context, if not its specific dates. I think this approach would be the only one that would guarantee a moderate level of neutrality. Dr Benway 09:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, these subjects are handled together in a more abreviated fashion in the Spanish Civil War article. As to Beevor, I don't think he is any example to follow with regard to neutrality. His 1982 book I found to be decidedly anti-Catholic (of the sort that used to be more common among British authors in the 19th and mid 20th century). The context that he gives is often nothing more than an apology for murder. I think that Beevor is one of the examples of the "attempts at justification" that Julio de la Cueva criticises. Including that sort of crap in the article is like incorporating the work of holocaust deniers into the holcaust article in the name of balance. Mamalujo 11:26, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, I actually liked Beevor and found him quite objective :) He gives a good explanation for what happened, and his account on the Terror is not skewed one way or the other as far as I can see. As for the analogy, I don't think denying the Holocaust in the Holocaust article has anything to do with inserting contextual information of what happened in the onset of the Spanish civil war with the murders of catholic clergy, firstly because nobody denies it happened and that it was murder, and secondly because one situation had absolutely no historical similarities with the other one whatsoever. Cheers! :) Dr Benway 07:09, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I would beg to differ. To say that the situations had absolutely no historical similarities shows no understanding of modern bigoted eliminationist mass murder. No the Red Terror was not the Holocaust. But neither were the killing field of Pol Pot, Rwanda or the pogroms in Russia. Mamalujo 06:17, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

No, Pol Pot, Rwanda and the russian pogroms had nothing to do with each other. That's like saying that AIDS and EBOLA are the same virus because they kill people. I'm afraid I don't quite follow your argument. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree ;) Dr Benway 06:39, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Euh... ?

"The Franco government now gives the names of 61,000 victims of the Red terror, but this is not subject to objective verification."

I'm not sure what Beevor means by this, firstly because the "Franco government now" does not exist as of today, and secondly because if his figure is "not subject to objective verification" I really fail to see what it's doing in an encyclopaedic article, despite it being a reputed source. I'll check the new edition. Cheers ;) Dr Benway 07:39, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Atrocities?

I was looking through "In El Pardo, near Madrid, a group of militiamen became drunk on communion wine while trying the parish priest. One militiaman used the chalice as a washing bowl as he shaved himself. [31]"

Firstly, I'm trying to figure out what is meant by "became drunk on communion wine while trying the parish priest". All help would be appreciated.

Secondly, in the context of mass executions, raping of nuns and other savagery, mentioning a "militiaman [that] used the chalice as a washing bowl as he shaved himself" is hardly reasonable if we're talking about atrocities, no? Cheers Dr Benway 08:04, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh, cool, now we've added "desecrations" to the Red Terror. Why not also include the fact that militiamen were using foul language in consecrated ground? Oh, and that they didn't cross themselves before walking into the church and shooting the priests. I mean, come on, seriously... *rolls eyes* Dr Benway (talk) 10:52, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Roll your eyes if you want, but the fact of the matter is that all of the authorities on the subject include accounts of desacration in their reports. Despite your flawed analogy, desecrations are not the same as cursing or failing to cross oneself. Burning churches, destroying defiling sacred religious objects and the like are attempts by the persecutors to destroy the victims' religion. They are extreme violations of religious and civil liberties and fall within the definition of terror ("violent or destructive acts (as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands" -Merriam Webster). Catholics believe that the consecration turns the host and the wine into the real presence of Christ's body and blood. Using the chalice as a washing bowl is not an inoccuous act. It is akin to (aruably much worse than) wiping your ass with to Torah while invading a synogogue. An actual example is the destruction of the Patriarch Joseph's tomb by Arab terrorists. Such acts are, and are intended to be, religious persecution. Your cavalier attitude toward them makes me wonder whether you really have an understanding of the subject matter. Mamalujo (talk) 19:25, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm extremely sorry if I have offended your religious beliefs, and please accept my apologies since it was not my intention. What I meant is that desecration is already implied by the fact that they're castrating and crucifying priests, raping nuns, executing clergy and burning churches to the ground. It simply makes the part on a militiaman using the chalice as a washingbowl sound absurd. Atrocities, I think, would refer to acts which would horrify any human being, regardless of ritual and belief. Mentioning desecrations such as the chalice being used as a shaving bowl is quite simply not equatable to assasination. Again, just an observation. Dr Benway (talk) 10:33, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Desecration" etc

I see this issue has already been raised by the above poster, and Mamalujo failed to respond. I suspect that Mamalujo's trying to use the talk page simply to resist fairly indesputable edits. Since without my edits this article violates NPOV, however, they should remain regardless of ancillary discussion. As already stated in the edit summary, improper use of proper isn't usually part of "terrors", that's an objective view, and undoubtedly while representatives of the Catholic Church were persecuted, it was for reasons not directly related to Catholicism and the Terror was not in itself anti-Catholic.Nwe (talk) 00:05, 20 March 2008 (UTC)