Talk:Red Star Belgrade

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Contents

[edit] Coaching history

I think the coaching history should be presented like on the Partizan#Coaching_history, since that way it's much shorter and it looks better. In other words, not sorted by the season, but by the coach. Vitriden 08:28, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think that rather than just listing them name-by-name there should be link to Red Star Belgrade head coaches or List of Red Star Belgrade head coaches because there's a lot to be said about many of them season-by-season and it would clutter up the main page. 65.94.128.174 22:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is the nickname "Cigani" an insult?

I have put this nickname in the textbox, but with a note that this is mostly used in pejorative manner, although sometimes even the club supporters call themselves " Cigani ". This nickname is created by the supporters of some of the opponent clubs and it probably takes its origins from the Bad Blue Boys, the supporters of Dinamo Zagreb. I think it should stay this way. Vitriden 22:05, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

The name didn't originate from Dinamo Zagreb's fans at all, but from Partizan fans way back in the 1960s. The fans outside of Belgrade and Serbia barely knew the term exists - it was more for internal Belgrade use and rival club oneupsmanship. As for whether it's insulting or not, yes, I'm sure it's initial intent was meant to be derogatory, but since Red Star fans accepted the name themselves and used it ever since - it can't really be classified as pejorative. Besides it's a lot older than Delije for example.65.94.135.162 23:53, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I would like to hear some more opinions, since there was some reverting and deleting going on about this issue, so I think it's obvious some consider this to be an insult.Vitriden 12:14, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Sorry to say but I think this is an insult. I have never heard any fans called themselves for "Cigani". Litany 17:44, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I think it's a legit nickname. I've heard Red Star fans refer to themselves by that name many times. There's even a fan song: Mi smo Cigani, najjaci smo najjaci. Zvonko 16:52, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
What do you think about sometimes used in pejorative manner or something like that? Vitriden 02:25, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
That would be OK, as far as I'm concerned. Zvonko 18:47, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok then, let's do it that way.

Vitriden 09:44, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Litany above, I have never heard any fans refer to themselve as Cigani and I believe it serves little purpose other than to displease fans. To draw a parallel, do other club sites have disparaging nicknames in wiki? For example, Manchester United are widely referred to as "Scum", "Man Ure" and more recently "Manchester United Bucaneers" however the only nickname entered is "The Red Devils". I see no benefit of having debatable disparaging nicknames, it just opens the door for unecessary conflict IMO. Just my 2 cents.

batobatobato 10:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move 1

Page should be moved to the local name (FK Crvena Zvezda or Crvena Zvezda) page, in consistence with other football club pages. UEFA.com official club page uses "FK Crvena Zvezda" as club name. Other clubs are named by their local names, rather than by "common English names" in Wikipedia (see SK Rapid Wien, Bayern Munich, Lokomotiv Moscow, Beşiktaş).

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~. Please note the desired name (FK Crvena Zvezda or Crvena Zvezda) if you support the move.
  • Oppose Its common name in English is Red Star Belgrade. --Henrygb 21:33, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
    • It used to be common... but now it seems not so one-sided. See above --Monkbel 13:24, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
      • Bayern Munich and Lokomotiv Moscow are the common names in English: what language(s) do you think they are in? The Red Star Belgrade's English website http://www.fc-redstar.net/home.aspx?cultureID=1 calls itself "Red Star" --Henrygb 16:26, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
        • Bayern is in German (Bavaria in English); Lokomotiv is in Russian (Locomotive in English). Don't know what about that English website but it seems strange... though a lot of local organisations have weird English pages on their site (mainly due to lack of professionalism). --Monkbel 16:36, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
          • But did you spot that Munich and Moscow are in English? What seems strange about the Red Star website? Sale of tickets? Reports of recent games? You can find the Serbian version for Црвена Звезда at http://www.fc-redstar.net/home.aspx?cultureID=2 (spot the clue in the URL) --Henrygb 00:23, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose Henrygb is right. Borisblue 23:14, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Support (Crvena Zvezda variant but would prefer either over English name). FC Cologne re-directs to 1. FC Köln, and UEFA and FIFA both call the club "Crvena Zvezda" on their respective English-language websites, why should here be any different? [dM] 11:50, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Support On the one hand this is the English version of wikipedia. However, I do see the value in using non-Anglicized placenames/proper names where possible (München, Buchuresti, etc) as long as we make sure to do a redirect. See IFK Göteborg. The English would have been FC Gothenberg, yuck. Why should a Serbian team be treated differently?--Pocket Rockets 05:00, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Support I think a redirect could solve the problem, and the english translation should be mentioned in the article. Gryffindor 01:05, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I already explained the relevant policies below, and my ordering was supposed to be indicative. The first-mentioned common name policy should be followed and the current name ("Red Star Belgrade") should stay. --Joy [shallot]
  • Support. I think it should be moved to its Serbian name. Usually I oppose any moves from welknown English names to local names since this is indeed English Wikipedia but both UEFA and FIFA agrees on this point. I can do tell you that even in Sweden we say "Röda Stjärnan", which is a direct translation, and commonly nothing else. Litany
  • Oppose. I think when writing in English language, one should use English words. The best example is that in the very same wikipedia, page of our country is SERBIA, not SRBIJA. Of course, anybody is welcome to translate this page in serbian, and put it on serbian wiki. Furthermore, this page should be intended for people from all over the world who might want to find out things about Red Star - the name used when team plays abroad, the name used in any foreign media, and the name under which official web site is. Also, keep in mind that while Besiktas, Bayern or Lokomotiv are pronounced pretty much the same whether written in english or local alphabet, CRVENA ZVEZDA is unpronounceable to the most of people on planet earth, and wildly different from expected RED STAR. I think this page should welcome people from all over the world, and show them greatness of Red Star. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MisterNo900 (talk • contribs) 18:02, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose - The club's official English website ([1]) refers to the club as FC Red Star. If anything, that is what the article should be called. - PeeJay 01:27, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion 1

Add any additional comments

[edit] page name

I propose to move page to FK Crvena Zvezda. It is much more appropriate. Why we here (in encyclopaedia!) should use "common English name"? For example, club that is commonly known in English as "Besiktas" has its page on Beşiktaş.. and so on - all clubs have pages in their local language (while it is in (extended) latin alphabet). --Monkbel 21:30, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

  • Yeah, I agree with going with the Serbian name. Or if not, at least make it FULLY english - i.e. "FC Red Star". FK stands for 'Fudbalski Klub', if we will use the "common English name" then it should be 'Football Club'. --[dM] 05:42, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Quite. Either it should be named according to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names), which is "Red Star Belgrade", or use the local name combined with the aforementioned convention, which would be simply "Crvena Zvezda" (unless there are other significant organizations of the same name that would get an article). --Joy [shallot] 07:51, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Descision 1

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. Ryan Norton T | @ | C 07:15, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Red Star won UEFA Champions League

Yougoslavia was created in 1918.even though the name of the country from 1918.to 1929.was "Kingdom of Serbs,Croats and Slovenes".UEFA Champions League was created in 1955.even though the name of the competition from 1955.to 1993.was "European Cup".

No, both Internazionale and Nottingham Forest, for example, have the pages with this same trophy named "European Cup", because that's the name of the trophy the time they won it. I can't see a single reason to rename the trophy years after it was won by Red Star. Vitriden 17:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

No,if we leave name "European Cup" for the competition Red Star won in 1991,many people will think Red Star never won UEFA Champions League.

OK, this becomes very annoying. First of all, Red Star did not win UEFA Champions League, that is simply untrue. If someone doesn't know that European cup is the predecessor of the Champions League, we can explain that in the text, but don't say Red Star won Champions League (and even delete the link to the European cup 1990/91, which is something I can't explain), since it wasn't the name of the competition in 1991. I don't see what makes Red Star so different to the clubs mentioned above, since they have all won this competition before 1993, and I don't understand what bothers you about that, since this was European first-rank competition at the time. And, secondly, the rivalry with Partizan exists, and your problem with it proves it. All of the club pages mention such rivalries, and I can't see what makes Red Star an exception. I'll revert it again and I hope you won't revert it back, because the info you have placed here is false. Simple as that.

Vitriden 22:38, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Folowing your logic,Yugoslavia did not exist in 1924

PS Partizan supporters have inferiority complex so there is no real rivalry.


OK, sad sam ispizdeo, pa ću na srpskom. Jesi li ti, kojim slučajem živeo u zemlji koja se od 1992. do 2003. zvala SR Jugoslavija, a zatim od 2003. do 2006. Srbija i Crna Gora? Ista zemlja, raličit naziv. I svugde piše da je prvak sveta u košarci 1998. i 2002. bila Jugoslavija, jer se zemlja tako zvala, jebote!!!! Niko to nije menjao u Srbija i Crna Gora, niti će sada menjati u Srbija. Po tvojoj logici, Nikola Tesla je rođen u Hrvatskoj, a ne u Austro-Ugarskoj. Ne mogu se retroaktivno menjati imena. Ne, Jugoslavija nije postojala 1924, postojao je njen prethodnik, Kraljevina Srba, Hrvata i Slovenaca. ŠTA TU NIJE JASNO???

Što se tiče inferiornosti navijača Partizana, ovo je zaista strašno. Ja navijam za Zvezdu, ali ovakva glupost je teško objašnjiva. To su dva najveća kluba u Beogradu i Srbiji i činjenica je da rivalitet postoji. Zvezda je osvojila Kup šampiona, Partizan je igrao u finalu. To su zaista visoki dometi, pošto je sa celog Balkana samo još Steaua igrala u finalu. Dakle, to su veliki klubovi, a to što ti njima imputiraš inferiornost, samo pokazuje tvoju inferiornost. Ovo je kao navijači Seltika tvrde da ne postoji rivalitet sa Rendžersom, pošto oni nisu osvojili Kup šampiona.

Samo jedno pitanje: koliko godina imaš? Iskreno.

Pozdrav,

Vitriden 17:13, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Vitriden but could you please translate that to English? :) Thanks - Litany 12:21, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me, I thought there's nobody else reading this. Well, rough translation would be:

OK, I'm pissed of now, so I'm gonna write this in Serbian. Have you, by any chance, lived in the country named FR Yugoslavia from 1992 to 2003, and then named Serbia and Montenegro in the period 2003-2006? It's the same country with different name. And everything I have read says the name of the basketball world champion 1998 and 2002 is Yugoslavia, because it was the name of the country at the time. Nobody has changed it to Serbia and Montenegro, nor will change it to Serbia now. Following your logic, Nikola Tesla was born in Croatia, not in Austria-Hungary. You can't change the names retroactively. And no, Yugoslavia did not exist back in 1924, but its predecessor, The Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes existed. What is not to understand there?

And about inferiority of the Partuzan fans I can say only one thing - this is totally ridiculous. I am a Red Star fan, but this kind of stupidity is hard to explain. These are the two biggest clubs in Belgrade and the whole of Serbia and the fact is the rivalry exists. Red Star won European cup and Partizan played in the finals. These are really high achievements, especially because there is no other Balkan team, besides Steaua, that played in the finals of the most prominent European football cup. So, Red Star and Partizan are really big clubs and the fact you consider Partizan fans inferior shows nothing but your own inferiority. This is the same as if some Celtic fan would claim that there is no rivalry with Glasgow Rangers, since thay haven't won European cup.

And just one more question: how old are you? Please, be honest.

Sincerely yours,

Vitriden 13:55, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Which prestigious encyclopedia says that Yugoslavia was created in 1929?

As far as inferiority complex is concerned,yes Celtic did won UEFA Champions League but Rangers has been more times Scottish League Champions than Celtic which is not the case with Partizan.Partizan is inferior to Red Star in almost everything.

I am tired of this. If you want to change it to this ridiculous nonsense, in contradiction to common sense, basic logic and all the other pages in Wikipedia, go ahead, change it. I won't revert it anymore. Good bye, I really don't have to take this shit anymore. You are an idiot. Best of luck, Vitriden 15:01, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I understand that you are tired but somehow we could resolve this question. Best regards Litany 12:40, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

You are an idiot because you do not understand that "UEFA Champions League" and "European Cup" is the SAME COMPETITION.UEFA did not abolish European Cup,UEFA renamed European Cup. -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.136.139.227 (talk • contribs) 19:52, 16 July 2006.

Please don't make personal attacks on other users. Calling people "idiots" isn't helpful or acceptable behaviour, and it could get you blocked if you persist. -- ChrisO 17:36, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is it zvezda or Zvezda (or doesn't it matter at all)?

The first cyrillic writing has a з instead of a З, the 'full name' on the club box also features a low-case 'z'. Also, KK Crvena Zvezda redirects to KK Crvena zvezda. However, most of other writings have Zvezda instead. What would the right selling be? Zé da Silva 22:51, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, it depends. In Serbian, only the first letter of the first word in the title of an institution is capitalized, but in English, all of the first letters in the titles are capitalized. So, technically, in Serbian cyrillic, it's Црвена звезда, in Serbian latin, it's Crvena zvezda, but since this is English Wikipedia, I believe the English transcription with the capital Z should be used.--Vitriden 23:03, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I see. Thanks for the prompt reply. Zé da Silva 23:06, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nemanja Vidić

If anyone is familiar about his history with this club, please expand the Red Star section in his article if possible. // laughing man 03:05, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] flag section

I've removed the section since it was not very encyclopedic, but perhaps we can use the images created by User:Cinoeye in the article elsewhere (in trophies or champions section?). Please let me know what you guys think about this.

Here are the images:

Image:ZastavaCZ V.gif

// laughing man 18:02, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Maybe these images can be included in Delije, since the flags are used by fans. --Bolonium 14:52, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Crvena Zvezda

As two reliable English-language sources today have published the Champions League draw calling Red Star Crvena Zvezda in English, I believe it is time to revisit the idea of changing the name of this article. I realise that common English language names should be used for teams who, in the English speaking world, are more commonly known by their English name (such as Bayern Munich). In this case, however, it no longer appears that Red Star Belgrade is more commonly used. Certainly I for one know them as Crvena whilst I would previously have referred to them as RSB. Does the BBC and UEFA site show that a similar tipping point has been reached across the English speaking world?

For info, this issue has been discussed before on pages now archive, and no consensus was reached. I'm testing the water to see if things have changed. Please respond if you agree or disagree; with consensus or if nobody really cares much I will change it round.

[2] [3] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.60.159.61 (talk • contribs) 12:13, August 3, 2007 (UTC)

Personally I think it's fine the way it is now, but it is true that BBC and UEFA have been using the Serbian "Crvena zvezda" instead. The club website however call themselves "Red Star Belgrade".[4] I think it's fine to just leave the title as it is, with the Serbian in the first sentence, and start working on ways to expand the article in general. --Bolonium 19:07, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

My name is Dragan Dujakovic and am the the project manager of Red Star's official website. The club is known as Crvena zvezda, but we do not shy away being called Red Star or Red Star Belgrade. Calling us "Crvena" doesn't make sense and I have spent many hours on the phone with editors of Eurosport, BBC and others to rectify that. "Crvena" means "red" in Serbian and is an adjective. Coloquial name iz "Zvezda". So, please use full name "Crvena zvezda"/"Crvena Zvezda", "Zvezda" or feel free to call us Red Star Belgrade. It is the name that is recognised world-wide and people instantly know who we are, no matter where (trust me - from New Zealand to US, passing through Ireland). We have also registered the domain names www.redstarbelgrade.com, www.redstarbelgrade.net and www.redstarbelgrade.org Hopefully, this will clarify this subject once and for all. Regards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.167.224.90 (talk • contribs) 06:20, 28 September, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] bold international players

FYI, perhaps we should remove this in the article, it seems members of WP Football also tend to think it's not necessary. (See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football#International_players_in_football_club_squads ) // laughing man 16:53, 17 September 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Requested move 2

Red Star Belgrade → FK Crvena Zvezda — UEFA uses FK Crvena Zvezda on it's English website. English speaking sports media, such as Sky Sports, BBC Sports, ESPNsoccernet, and The Guardian, also use Crvena Zvezda. —Tocino 02:46, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey 2

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

[edit] Discussion 2

UEFA and FIFA prefer FK Crvena Zvezda.
The following are English speaking media who use FK Crvena Zvezda or just Crvena Zvezda... SkySports BBC ESPN Soccernet Yahoo! Eurosport The Guardian The Scotsman The Sun The Telegraph Sporting Life Goal.com Football365.com --Tocino 03:16, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Support per nom--Vitriden 10:31, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Oppose. I think when writing in English language, one should use English words. The best example is that in the very same wikipedia, page of our country is SERBIA, not SRBIJA. Of course, anybody is welcome to translate this page in serbian, and put it on serbian wiki. Furthermore, this page should be intended for people from all over the world who might want to find out things about Red Star - the name used when team plays abroad, the name used in any foreign media, and the name under which official web site is. Also, keep in mind that while Besiktas, Bayern or Lokomotiv are pronounced pretty much the same whether written in english or local alphabet, CRVENA ZVEZDA is unpronounceable to the most of people on planet earth, and wildly different from expected RED STAR. I think this page should welcome people from all over the world, and show them greatness of Red Star. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MisterNo900 (talk • contribs) 18:02, 10 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vitriden (talk • contribs)
Comment I have moved the ballot from the old talk page here, something was messed up when the page was moved. Oh, yes, and MisterNo900, nobody is going to be unable to find this page just because it is named Crvena zvezda, since there is a simple redirect. And, as you can see, most media in English prefer calling it Crvena zvezda, and not Red Star.--Vitriden 19:48, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move 3

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was No consensus to move. Húsönd 05:56, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


Seeing as the page has been moved back and forth lately, I think this might be about time to decide on its destiny once and for all. Please read what I'm saying carefully before making your desicion. I was the one who strongly supported moving the Ukrainian and Romanian clubs, but this one is quite different. It clearly does not fall under the WP:NC#Sports_teams. It's the name of the club that is being translated here and that's just not right. Otherwise we should really have Royal Madrid and not Real Madrid, Energy Cottbus, not Energie Cottbus, Future Vuljandi in place of Tulevik Viljandi, CSAC Moscow instead of CSKA Moscow, I can go on forever, but you should've gotten my point by now. The only difference is that Crvena Zvezda was indeed commonly known as Red Star, probably until mid-90s, but the club is known as Crvena Zvezda nowadays, even despite the fact that their english website is located at another domain.

Comment WP:NC#Sports_teams has been updated since this RM was started (and after the last !vote) and now states that the name on the club's English website should be used. пﮟოьεԻ 57 10:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
WP:NC#Sports_teams states that the official name should be used. BanRay 20:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
I would say the club's official website is likely to contain the club's official name! пﮟოьεԻ 57 12:18, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
The qualifying text is "in cases where there is no ambiguity whatsoever as to the official spelling of a club's name in English". I find it difficult to believe that someone could expect that this omission would go unnoticed. Chris Cunningham (talk) 21:03, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Support by the nominator BanRay 11:32, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose The club refer to themselves as Red Star on their official website, and the BBC also still uses Red Star (this article is from August 2007). пﮟოьεԻ 57 12:29, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Reply The club was announced as Crvena Zvezda at the latest Champions League draw. That means that the club refer to themselves as Crvena Zvezda. Video BanRay 18:28, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
      • Reply - Nothing of the sort! They were referred to as "Crvena Zvezda" at the CL draw because that's how they were registered with UEFA. The club still refers to itself as "Red Star" on its English website. - PeeJay 18:43, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
        • Reply - Clubs don't create websites, nor do they register domains. The fact that UEFA referred to them as Crvena Zvezda, means that the club referred to themselves as crvena Zvezda while submitting their official entry. IT guys may write whatever they want, but if the club refers to themselves as Crvena Zvezda in official documents, then that's how they refer to themselves in general. BanRay 19:45, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
          • Yes, but UEFA also refer to Bayern Munich as Bayern München, and get the names at least one club completely wrong, so I don't really think their naming standard can be trusted. пﮟოьεԻ 57 19:50, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
            • Which club is that? - MTC 19:53, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
              • "Hapoel" Bnei Sakhnin. The club is called Ihud Bnei Sakhnin. пﮟოьεԻ 57 20:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
                • Their Hebrew name appears to begin with הפועל (Hpw'l), the same as the start of Hapoel Tel-Aviv's. I doubt the Hebrew Wikipedia would be wrong about that, it seems you are wrong. - MTC 21:01, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
                  • Actually, I am fully aware of that (being a Hebrew speaker). However, it is possible that this mistake comes from UEFA themselves. The only Sakhnin website (which is down) does not call them Hapoel, and they are also not listed as that in the IFA's club list. Also note that the ar.wiki does not include Hapoel apart from when translating from Hebrew (possibly taking the he.wiki's apparent mistake). пﮟოьεԻ 57 21:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
                    • Anyway, all this is beside the point. The clear fact is that the club call themselves Red Star. On that basis It couldn't be more obvious what the answer to this renaming question is (though I would support PeeJay's suggestion of Red Star Belgrade (with no FC) based on WP:COMMONNAME). пﮟოьεԻ 57 23:28, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
            • That's not the same though, UEFA refer to Bayern as Bayern München because they don't "translate" city names. On wikipedia we do, it's the official policy or convention, whatever you call it. As I've already said, this case is different because it's not the city name we're talking about. As for UEFA being an unrelieble source, again, it's not UEFA who write articles on their website. Find me an official document or a draw where they misspell a name and we'll talk about it. BanRay 20:51, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
              • Actually, UEFA refer to teams by their (transliterated, in the case of non-Latin alphabets) local names, as that is how the teams register with UEFA, what with it being a European organisation and all, and therefore having no single official language. - PeeJay 00:33, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Whilst it is not proof of correctness, it is interesting to note that around half the other language wikis use translations of the name rather than the Serbian, e.g. es:Estrella Roja de Belgrado, nl:Rode Ster Belgrado. пﮟოьεԻ 57 12:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Support - FK Crvena Zvezda or FK Crvena zvezda[5] is the local official name. - MTC 12:42, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but this is en.wiki, not sr.wiki. пﮟოьεԻ 57 12:45, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
It's a name, it should not be translated, so it doesn't matter what language we're using. - MTC 14:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - The club is becoming better known as "Crvena Zvezda", but since the club refers to itself as "FC Red Star" on the English version of its official website, that is the only name I would support a move to. "FC Red Star Belgrade", as it is now, is a bastardisation of the club's official name and what most people know it as. It's got to be either "FC Red Star" or "Red Star Belgrade", but not a combination of the two. - PeeJay 13:33, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Reply - Jay, Please refer to my reply to Number 57, cheers. BanRay 18:39, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Support - it should definitely be moved somewhere else, because nobody ever refers to this club as "FC Red Star Belgrade" (1 hit at BBC). It turns out BBC also prefers the Serbian name, which is relevant because they normally prefer the English name. Obviously UEFA also uses the Serbian name so I think that these two pieces of evidence are enough to support a move. ugen64 03:56, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose - this is the English Wikipedia, so the English equivalent should be preferred when widely used by English-language media, such as in this case. --Angelo 09:33, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Support move to either Red Star Belgrade or FK Crvena Zvezda, as per Ugen64. My preference would be Crvena Zvezda as it is the official name of the club, but then I'm fairly sure that those English speaking people who remember the clubs heyday in the 80s & early 90s remember them as Red Star. Whatever the case FK should not be translated to FC, thats just absurd. King of the NorthEast 19:54, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
    • So it's absurd for the club to explicitly refer to themselves as "FC Red Star" on their own website? – PeeJay 14:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Question/Comment: Why are majority of those commenting on the name of this article have never contributed to it at all previously? It would be nice if all of you help to improve this article as the most notable football club in Serbia should have a higher quality article for the better of Wikipedia. // laughing man 20:05, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Seeing as the above is probably a no consensus, I have moved the article to Red Star Belgrade to avoid the bastardisation of the FC at the start (as noted by King of the North East). пﮟოьεԻ 57 01:39, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
NO ONE recently asked the article to moved to "Red Star Belgrade" which is more of a "bastardization" than FC Red Star Belgrade, which is the consensus version. // laughing man 22:41, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Actually, two people did. Read the above discussion. пﮟოьεԻ 57 22:45, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
WHEN did they? And WHEN did you move the page? // laughing man 22:56, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
In the most recent discussion. I waited just over a month to move it because I was waiting for an uninvolved admin to close the RM, though it seems to have been overlooked. Also, please don't write in capitals, it is not very WP:CIVIL. пﮟოьεԻ 57 22:59, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
  • 66% for move, so I'm not so sure, I'll put it back if you don't mind. BanRay 09:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Put it back to FC Red Star Belgrade? It was pointed out that such a title is incorrect. It's either FC Red Star or Red Star Belgrade. пﮟოьεԻ 57 09:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
      • Back to RM list, chill mate ;) BanRay 10:08, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
        • Ah, ok. Was the sports team naming policy finalised when this move was suggested? If not, it might change things, as it says that the official English name used by a club (i.e. on their website) is preferred to the local name - this means that by the rules of the policy, FC Red Star is preferred to Crvena Zvezda... пﮟოьεԻ 57 10:17, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
          • Well, we can leave this one aside and start a new one if you think that would be the right thing to do. BanRay 10:22, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
            • Perhaps; the discussion above seems to have been forgotten about, and there is at least one other unclosed requested move higher up the page. The policy seems to have changed since it started too. I guess it depends what you want the article to be moved to; I'm not sure it would be worth doing an RM to Crvena Zvezda now as it is blatantly against the policy, but if you want to move it to FC Red Star, then it would probably be worth starting a new one. пﮟოьεԻ 57 10:39, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
              • I disagree, I still haven't seen any evidence that the club's official name is Red Star. Plus, according to WP:NC: "Naming conventions are a list of guidelines on how to create and name pages. These are conventions, not rules carved in stone", meaning there's always room for expeption if consensus is reached. Otherwise what would we need WP:RM for. So let's wait for a while and see if someone finally decides to close this debate. BanRay 13:05, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
                • Their English website refers to them only as FC Red Star (even the stadium is not referred to using Crvena Zvezda - they use Marakana instead). пﮟოьεԻ 57 13:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
                  • I've already addressed this issue before.BanRay 14:06, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
                    • You said "Clubs don't create websites". Are you suggested that Arsenal have nothing to do with Arsenal.com? Of course clubs create websites, as that is their official face on the web. It is quite simple; the policy states that how a club refers to itself on its official website is a sign of no amiguity. Also, I don't believe clubs submit their own name to UEFA, the national associations do it. пﮟოьεԻ 57 14:13, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
                      • Maybe, but who submits names to their associations? Anyway, going back to the "official website" argument, look at FC Moscow's website, they inconsistently refer to themselves as FC Moscow, FC Moskva and FK Moskva. Clubs don't create websites, IT personnel do. BanRay 14:27, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
                        • Yes, but the IT personnel are employed by the club and probably have some instruction on what to put in it. I wouldn't expect to find anything on the website of my employer which it didn't approve of. Anyway, that issue is irrelevant here; the policy is as it is; if you want to change it, go for it (personally, I am not happy with the policy either, but we have to stick with it). пﮟოьεԻ 57 14:30, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
                          • See, the policy is created by users on the principles of simple majority. The policy also states that there is always room for exception and arguable cases should be decided by consensus, since convention is nothing more than a guideline. Also I find it rather unfair that we now have to reach clear consensus to move the page back, despite the fact that it was moved here without any prior discussion, because no chance it would've been moved here through WP:RM in the first place. BanRay 14:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Support - no need to translate organisation names into ham-English. - fchd (talk) 13:45, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Support - as I've already said before, Crvena zvezda(in quotations) gets more google hits than Red Star Belgrade and it's the original name. Simple as that.--Vitriden (talk) 13:53, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
    • No it doesn't; Crvena zvezda gets 212,000; Red Star Belgrade gets 713,000. пﮟოьεԻ 57 13:58, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
      • It doesn't matter, nowadays Crvena Zvezda is used far more often in official sources, it migh've been the other way round ten years ago, but things have changed. BanRay 14:06, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
      • I have some troubles with Google now,(I can't open it!?), but at Yahoo I get 918,000 hits for "Red Star Belgrade" and 1,190,000 for "Crvena zvezda". I really don't know what's the difference between Google and Yahoo, but these are the facts. --Vitriden (talk) 14:07, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
        • As I already said in the sports team naming convention discussion, the Google test is not always good in cases like these: what we need to have is a method to measure the number of reliable sources featuring one or the other name. In fact, if you try out a Google News test, you can find out Red Star Belgrade is more popular than Crvena Zvezda (234 hits [6] against 72[7]). --Angelo (talk) 22:05, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose, WP:ENGLISH trumps the club's registered title. I'd never use the club's registered title in real life unless for some reason I was signing their UEFA papers. Chris Cunningham (talk) 14:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment I think there is no consensus in support of the move right now (personal opinion of mine, obviously). In any case, let me remind you we have built a naming convention for sports teams, and it should be followed with common sense. I know for good it's not carved into stone, but it's definitely clear there's no current clear support for a different article name. That's all. --Angelo (talk) 14:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment Just as there's no support for the current name. Angelo, the problem is that this page was moved here without any consensus at all, and now, all of a sudden, we need overwhelming consensus to move it back. Let's say some admin decides to move it back to Crvena Zvezda tomorrow, for whatever reason he might have, would that mean that the article would stay there for good, because no way you'll be able to reach, as you say, "clear consensus" to move it back here. BanRay 17:35, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
      • Are you talking about the move from FC Red Star Belgrade to Red Star Belgrade? To be honest, I don't really see it as a move, as it still retains the wording "Red Star Belgrade", it was more of a correction, insomuchas whilst FC Red Star (official), Red Star Belgrade (common) and Crvena Zvezda (local) are all legitimate alternatives, FC Red Star Belgrade (a mishmash of official and common) was not. I just moved it to closest legitimate option. пﮟოьεԻ 57 17:51, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
        • No, I was talking about the move from FK Crvena Zvezda to FC Red Star Belgrade. BanRay 18:09, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
          • OK, but it's only been located at Crvena Zvezda for five weeks out of the last four years. пﮟოьεԻ 57 18:27, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
            • Actually there's no consensus for both names (Crvena Zvezda and Red Star). In controversial cases like these, I think the current naming convention should be firmly followed. That's all, guys. --Angelo (talk) 18:37, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment I don't think it's so important to make a decision about the name, since, obviously, sooner or later, someone will show up and question whatever decision we make. There is a redirect and both names are mentioned in the introduction, so this is not such an important issue. It would be much better if all the contributors here have tried to arrange the page so it looks decent, since it looks pretty bad right now, and there's nobody trying to improve it, while we argue about something as unimportant and trivial as the name of the article. Let's make a proper article, and then we can call it whatever we like. I have 226 contributions to this article, and if everyone here did a tenth part of that, this could've been a featured article. Yet, you keep running this senseless argument, that contributes nothing to the quality of the article.--Vitriden (talk) 15:13, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong Support Sports media overwhemingly uses Crvena Zvezda these days, including the BBC (examples - [8],[9]) Sky Sports ([10], [11]) ESPN Soccernet ([12], [13]) CNN ([14]) Yahoo! Sports ([15]) Footymad.net ([16]) Goal.com ([17]) Football365.com ([18]) SportingLife.com ([19]) As for the newspapers... The New York Times ([20]) USA Today ([21]) The Sun ([22]) The Telegraph ([23]) The Guardian ([24]) .....OK so the media and UEFA uses Crvena Zvezda. Plus "Red Star Belgrade" goes against WP policy as like the editor who requested move said, what's next... changing Real Madrid to Royal Madrid? Crvena Zvezda is the official name. WP should use it. --Tocino 19:48, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
    • The BBC links (at least) are disingenuous. The BBC in general does not refer to the team by the proposed title. They do so in various links to official statistics, but when discussing the team they use the English name. Chris Cunningham (talk) 19:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
      • Crvena Zvezda is the official name while Red Star Belgrade is the casual and outdated term. For naming sports teams articles, WP usually uses the official name instead of the casual term, like Sporting Clube de Portugal instead of Sporting Lisbon. --Tocino 20:10, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
        • In that case it's incorrect to do so, per WP:ENGLISH. I'd argue that it does not usually ignore usual English usage, per Bayern Munich ( bigger team). Chris Cunningham (talk) 20:37, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
          • Serbs use both Cyrillic and Latin scripts and the club's official name in Latin script is FK Crvena Zvezda, so WP:ENGLISH is absolutely irrelevant here. BanRay 11:55, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
            • Not so - WP:ENGLISH does not only apply to transliterations; otherwise we would have articles located at Wien, München and Göteborg, as they are all in countries where Latin script is used. пﮟოьεԻ 57 13:58, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
              • But as I've already said, Crvena Zvezda is the most commonly used English name nowadays as well, so WP:ENGLISH is irrelevant either way. Red Star is just an outdated term. Also, I went to their UEFA Cup game in Tallinn last summer, and their was no mention of Red Star in the game program either. BanRay 14:24, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
                • Well, I would assume the program was in Estonian, so of course it wouldn't use Red Star! Anyway, as said many many times, the club calls themselves FC Red Star on their official website, and that is what the new policy dictates should be used in priority. пﮟოьεԻ 57 15:08, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
                • With due respect, this may be true in some nebulous, Googlesque way, but it's absolutely untrue in the English vernacular (I doubt most pundits or casual fans could pronounce Crvena Zvezda, let alone that they commonly use it). Chris Cunningham (talk) 18:39, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong Support per common use. Club is called "Crvena Zvezda" by most English language media these days, and it is also their official Latin script name (as per UEFA). See stats in comments above. "Red Star" is legacy name, under which club was famous decades ago, and should be mentioned in article. --Monk (talk) 13:46, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
As pointed out several times above, the club's official website refers to themselves as "FC Red Star", and using Crvena Zvezda is therefore completely against the two most obvious policies to follow here, i.e. WP:ENGLISH and WP:NC#Sports_teams. пﮟოьεԻ 57 13:55, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
As I already pointed out above, a Google News test returns more hits for Red Star Belgrade than for Crvena Zvezda (226 hits [25] against 71[26] as of today). --Angelo (talk) 14:33, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose because no one not familiar with Serbian would get that its Red Star Belgrade. And as others have posted, English homepage. Chandlertalk 10:31, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
If no English speakers can recognize Crvena Zvezda, then why does the English-speaking media use it so much? --Tocino 23:22, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
They don't, in my experience, use it if they can get away with "Red Star Belgrade". I wouldn't be arguing to the contrary otherwise. Chris Cunningham (talk) 23:30, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
All of those links I provided prove that usage of Crvena Zvezda is widespread in the English speaking media. Whether they throw in Red Star Belgrade or not doesn't matter. If they do then it's something like, "Crvena Zvezda, the club formerly known as Red Star Belgrade,..." Chandlar said that no one, meaning English speakers, can recognize Crvena Zvezda if they don't understand the Serbian language. That statement is incorrect. --Tocino 00:04, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
You haven't proven this at all. My point was that in the English vernacular the Serbian name is little-used. 25 links to instances where it is quoted on websites does not disprove this any more than if I were to request that Santa Claus be moved to Weihnachtsmann because I could provide 30 websites which used the term. Neither WP:NAME nor WP:ENGLISH supports this move. It should be dismissed for good. Chris Cunningham (talk) 02:05, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
You have provided no evidence that Crvena Zvezda is "little-used" in the English speaking world. Your argument is based on WP:OR and I have disproven it by showing you all of the media outlets that use Crvena Zvezda. --Tocino, 04:54. 6 January 2008 (UTC)
You seem to be forgetting the new naming conventions for sports teams. Red Star Belgrade have an English-language website (http://www.fc-redstar.net/home.aspx?cultureID=1), which uses an English name for the club (FC Red Star Belgrade). The name "Red Star Belgrade" has been adopted by a significant section of the English media, it is immediately recognisable, and it is not easily confused with other teams' names. Therefore, by the Wikipedia naming conventions for sports teams, the official team name should be used, and I believe that should be "FC Red Star". – PeeJay 02:48, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I know it's the policy but I believe there's an exception in this case with the media and UEFA using Crvena Zvezda. I would be supportive of a compromise to FC Red Star. Red Star Belgrade is equivalent to Arsenal London. Belgrade has no place in the club's official name. --Tocino 18:51, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose Should be Red Star Belgrade on WP:en. Most likely to generate a hit here, and can be sorted out in the first paragraph of the article. Wiggy! (talk) 22:18, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Condemned harshly and strongly oppose The article is a "no ambiguity" article obviously - according to the club's official website. Raymond Giggs 17:59, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

People say Red Star Belgrade is not official, but www.redstarbelgrade.com is official site, one of three listed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcmullen writes (talk • contribs) 22:05, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.