Talk:Red Shirts (Mexico)

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[edit] Not fascist

Please do not re-add this tag to the article as this group does not fall under the term "Fascism", its simply a hate group. Mexico's fascists were called the Gold shirts which is a different thing. - Gennarous (talk) 09:10, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, there is a reliable source which describes them as fascist. And your recent edits do not even relate to the Red Shirts and are merely a mix or OR and your own opinions.Mamalujo (talk) 09:30, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, that is just one source. And Actually, I didn't remove that source. I Actually just added more information which included a source. Don't remove it. If you're too lazy to read the history of fascism, to see that it is not anti-Catholic in ideology, then perhaps you shouldn't edit articles in that field. - Gennarous (talk) 19:25, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Many strains of facism have been anti-Catholic and there is abundant authority to support that. See here, here, here and here. Mussolini's fascism was originally anti-Catholic and he contemplated confiscation of church properties. He only later made accomodation due to the sentiments of the Italian people. In fact, a biography of Mussolini states that "Initially, fascism was fiercely anti-Catholic."Mamalujo (talk) 22:40, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Dubious info again, Mussolini's own mother was devoutly Catholic. You think Mussolini was "anti" his own mother? And then "anti-Catholic" as a whole despite the fact that he helped the Church greatly by helping them gain the Vatican from the Kingdom of Italy? And despite the fact that, as an adult he even chose to be baptised as a Catholic?

So apparently, according to you, Mussolini was anti his mother, anti his own actions and anti himself.

You're using the fact that you're a Catholic American, to try and distance the fact that actually Fascists did not hate Catholics and over-all, if they were religious, they were probably Catholic in Italy (though there were Jewish Fascists too). The point I put in the article is sourced. Please do not remove it. - Gennarous (talk) 23:11, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi, firstly, please refrain from getting personal in talk page discussions. It's the edit that's under discussion, not the editors. Secondly, the edit that you propose:

Though this is somewhat dubious for several reasons; first of all the fascists of Mexico were the Gold shirts who the Red shirts clashed with. Second of all, Fascism as an ideology does not feature anti-Catholic discrimination, exemplified by Italian fascists helping to conclude the Lateran Treaty.^[1] Thus the Red shirts fall under the banner of a hate group as their only solid purpose was anti-Catholicism.

has the "feel" of an original research statement; could you please quote exactly what Warwick Palmer is saying? I will note that a Who's Who is, I feel, less likely to be a reliable source for objective political analysis than the sources cited calling the Red Shirts a fascist movement. Thanks. --Stlemur (talk) 01:28, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with presenting both views, is it? Obviously there are both people who claim the red shirts were fascists and people who claim they weren't, so the best solution would be to present both views. I think it's better to watch out with using terms like 'hate group' though. That's a pretty new (and often politically (ab)used) term, I don't think it was used in the 1930s, so it would be better to avoid it in order not to become anachronistic, unless there is a source that explicitly calls them a hate group. Mixcoatl (talk) 21:02, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

It's alright to present both views so long as they both have mainstream scholarly support; see WP:FRINGE. At the moment we just don't have a source which convincingly says they weren't fascist. --Stlemur (talk) 00:48, 8 April 2008 (UTC)