Talk:Red Lake High School massacre

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:

Contents

[edit] Why no mention of the killers flash animation?

The one where a character goes around killing people then commiting suicide? It was big news.

-G —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.117.158.83 (talk) 04:40, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move?

Why was this moved? The person is separate from the act, Hitler does not redirect to World War 2, Jeff's page should remain seperate from the 'Red Lake High School Massacre'. --195.7.55.146 14:32, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

There is not enough content to warrant two pages and they should be combined until such a stage as they can be split. For now the content should not be copy/pasted back to the other page because that violates the GFDL. violet/riga (t) 15:07, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Yes there is. That Jeff's Dad committed suicide warrants mention, but not in Red Lake High School massacre. it's relevent to Jeff Weise. That His mother is brain damaged, likewise. His delve into Neo-Nazi'ism, his previous fights within the school. His Grandfathers apparent new Romance..
These are this which are not relevent to the Red Lake High School massacre, but are very relevent to Jeff Weise. I'm not goning to Break the 3RR though. --Irishpunktom\talk 15:19, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Where's the point in having many different pages about the same incident? Neither Jeff Weise nor the school are/were itself notable if not for the massacre, so it seems logical to me that we create an article about the massacre and put every information there. --Conti|✉ 15:23, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
I concur. There's no point in having separate articles for the incident and the perpetrator. It is far more efficient to dedicate a subsection of this article to Weise (and in it mention the troubles of his life, without mixing it with the account of the shootings themselves). Redux 17:17, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I also concur. Gary Ridgway and the Green River Killings are on the same page, buy Gary Ridgway would not be otherwise notable. I think in the name of consistency, if Jeff Weise is not otherwise notable, he should remain on the same page as the massacre. -- Jwinters | Talk 17:23, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The same thing also applies for the school, which was again made an article. Maybe we should hold a vote on this? Attempts to merge the articles were reverted so far. --Conti|✉ 17:29, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
An article for the school? Not again. The school is not notable unless in connection with this incident. As for articles about schools (high schools, middle schools, etc.), it's been discussed to the death: they are not notable enough. Should we decide to hold a vote for this particular instance, mine is to merge everything we have into this article. I wonder if this talk page would be the appropriate forum though, since other articles would be concerned. We don't want people complaining that they didn't get a chance to vote because they were unaware of it. We could hold the vote here, however, provided we post a notice on the talk pages of all the other articles that would be affected by the outcome. Redux 18:41, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
And it will continue to be debated until the deletionists give up. The number of school articles must be well into four figures now and most half decent articles survive deletionist attacks. Wincoote 23:47, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
In this particular case, no one is talking about deleting the information, just centralizing it in one article. I see this topic has raised some passions. Now I really must support Conti's idea of puting the subject to a vote. If the vote takes place and (if) a consensus is reached to merge the articles, they will have to be merged. It looks like that's the best way to settle this. Redux 03:07, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

Cite sources?--195.7.55.146 12:26, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Wiese or Weise

I've seen several spellings of Weise, rather than Wiese, the most noteable on his posting to the nationalist messageboards[[1]]. Does anyone know which is correct?--Brendanfox 13:15, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I just came here to say the same thing as you. Unless he deliberately misspelled it on that forum its unlikely that it is actually Wiese. I would favor changing it. — Trilobite (Talk) 14:44, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)


the least someone could do is actually spell his name consistently throughout this article. I mean jumping from Weise to Weiss?? That's professional.

[edit] Shooter's age

AP news reports age as 17 not 15. Changed on Page --Mitrebox 19:57, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Local news media in Minnesota and Yahoo.com [2] have reported that Jeff Weise was 17 years of age, not 15. --EisenKnoechel 14:27, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

Yahoo.com [3] is now reporting that Jeff Weise was anywhere between 15 and 17 years of age. --EisenKnoechel 14:55, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

The Christian Science Monitor [4] is reporting that Jeff Weise was 16 years old of age. --pjv_b 23:12, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Apparently a Goth

Is it certain that he was a Goth? It's just that the same thing got said about Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold and it turned out they weren't.

If he's a Goth, where was he when they sacked Rome?

I think the media applies the "Goth" label more widely than would the people they label. We really shouldn't assert that he was a Goth unless we have a quote where he self-identifies, or perhaps from someone close to him. Until then, let's make it clear who is calling him a Goth. --cprompt 16:42, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

I'm tired of the media singling out people.

First off, it seems like the media likes to make it appear that every outsider who ends out shooting up the school is a goth kid. Having an unpleasant high school experience myself, the accusations that Goth culture was the motive behind every random act of violence by a white middle-class suburbia teenager are missleading and bias. It is like blaming an Arab person for terrorism. Soon it will be revealed that yes this kid was just another scumbag.--Bushido Hacks 17:29, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Really? I don't remember any of the Minnesota News agencies reporting him as a goth. It's probably the students at the school who named him a goth. Maybe you should look at the profile of a school shooter, I'll bold the ones that Jeff Weise and this crime have exihibited so far:

  • AGE - 6-18 years-old. (Most are between 14 and 15-years-old.)
  • GENDER - Male.
  • RACE - Almost always White.
  • IQ - Above average.
  • SOCIAL - Isolated--a loner with few friends.
  • MOTIVE - To punish those who bullied, tautned, rejected or shamed.
  • PRECUSOR - Threat of violence-all said what they were going to do prior to act.
  • PERSONALITY - Angry, full of hate, depressed, nerd, weird sense of humor.
  • SPECIAL INTEREST - Guns, violent themes (movies, video games, websites, music)
  • HISTORY - Cruelty to animals. Slight interest in gangs, occult & white supremacy groups.
  • CRIMINAL HISTORY - Usually none.
  • FAMILY HISTORY - 55% parents intact, 45% divorced.
  • TRIGGER EVENT - Romantic rejection, fear of poor grades.
  • LOCATION - Rural or suburban schools.
  • AFFILIATION - Enrolled student, not a stranger at the school
  • PREDICATABILITY - High (leaves many clues).
  • WEAPONS - Semi-automatc handguns
  • LOCATION - Where students gather.
  • PLANNING - Always planned.
  • VICTIMS - Victims always targeted (females common).
  • TIME - Over half happened in the middle of the day.

--EisenKnoechel 18:10, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Move Weise from Victims to Suspect

  • Issue: move Weise from the Victims List to the Suspect List.
  • Reason(s): make the outline more like "Columbine"
not actually a victim (society doesn't count)
  • Additional Thoughts: Renaming of Suspect to Shooter as more information is confirmed.

--Mitrebox 20:02, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

  • Support:Weise should be deleted from Victims/Killed list. He is already listed in Perpetrator section and he committed suicide. DoubleBlue 16:26, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Support. He is no victim. --Golbez 22:23, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Grandmother or Grandfathers wife

  • Is the victim Weise's Grandmother or his Grandfather's Wife? --Mitrebox 20:06, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Both, I think. And that makes it only one...silly joke about morbid stuff ;) --OleMurder 15:04, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Michelle Sigana was the girlfriend (common-law wife?) of Daryl Lussier. She is not Weise's birth grandmother.

[edit] Article use

There are three related articles that have seen edit wars, moves and duplications: Red Lake High School, Jeff Weise and Red Lake High School massacre. There are currently two main opinions:

  1. Information about the shooter (Jeff Weise) should be in his article, details of the shooting at this one and information about the school at the Red Lake High School article.
  2. The massacre is the only thing that makes Jeff Weise and the school notable and they would be deleted had this tragedy not happened - all the details should be in this article (with the others redirecting here) to avoid duplication and spreading the information out too thinly.

Please vote for which of the articles you think should exist in their own right:

[edit] Red Lake High School

Poll closed

Should exist:

  1. --EisenKnoechel 21:08, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
  2. Saopaulo1 22:28, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
  3. pjv_b 23:12, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
  4. Wincoote 23:51, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC) Like any other school article, it needs a chance to develop.
  5. Seth Ilys 13:26, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC). Like all high schools, it should merit its own article without any dramatic events or major news coverage.
  6. Lochaber 13:48, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  7. Rmhermen 15:52, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC) as with Columbine

Details should be merged to this page:

  1. violet/riga (t) 20:37, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  2. Nickptar 21:08, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  3. Preisler 21:26, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  4. Deco 21:29, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  5. GhePeU 21:33, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  6. Special Kay 21:39, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
  7. Edcolins 22:04, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
  8. —Korath (Talk) 22:17, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
  9. Mitrebox 22:51, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  10. Zellin 00:58, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
  11. Redux 03:13, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  12. Conti|✉ 12:10, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Jeff Weise

Poll closed

Should exist:

  1. --EisenKnoechel 21:08, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
  2. GhePeU 21:30, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  3. Special Kay 21:38, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
  4. Saopaulo1 22:28, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
  5. pjv_b 23:12, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
  6. Wincoote 23:52, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  7. Tydaj 00:53, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  8. Zellin 00:59, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
  9. Irishpunktom\talk 10:55, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
  10. Seth Ilys 13:26, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  11. --Conti|✉ 12:10, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
  12. Lochaber 13:48, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  13. Rmhermen 15:52, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Details should be merged to this page:

  1. violet/riga (t) 20:37, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  2. Nickptar 21:08, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  3. Preisler 21:26, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  4. Deco 21:29, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  5. Edcolins 22:04, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
  6. Mitrebox 22:49, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  7. Redux 03:13, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  8. Noticing that Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold exists, I'm fine with both. --Conti|✉ 12:10, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

I concur with the comments above. Neither the person nor the school is currently sufficiently notable outside of this incident, or we might have actually heard of them the day before yesterday. The school is somewhat unusual, being on an Indian reservation, but isn't sufficiently more important than the many other reservation high schools — how many of those are there? Deco 21:29, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

There is Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold so I think that keeping Jeff Weise isn't a problem. I agree on removing Red Lake High School. GhePeU 21:32, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold has significantly more information than Jeff Weise. While there is a case for leaving Jeff Weise in its present state and allowing expansion, and I'm on the fence here, I think it would be better to merge and redirect, and move the info on Jeff back out if it's significantly added to.
Nickptar 22:46, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Mitrebox 23:04, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC) unless this develops into a super-event or as the basis for Federal/State Programs (example AMBER Alert ->requires-> Amber Hagerman ) I see no reason for seperate items.
In which case, time will tell. As we find out more about his background, a seperate article about his background will probably become more warrented.--Tydaj 00:58, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

pjv_b 19:12, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC) If we delete Red Lake High School we, as wikipedian, should eliminate Columbine High School article. They are both schools, and in both happened practically the same thing, they should stay like that. The next option, would be, make an article like Columbine High School massacre, but it would be called Red Lake High School massacre. We can`t eliminate Jeff Weise article, because he was the killer, as Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold did. Or, at least, we can combine Jeff Weise article with the Red Lake High School, but the same would happen with Columbine High School article.

Mitrebox 00:01, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC) Not all events are equal. Likewise all events do not require the same division of entires. Columbine was a major event that had resounding consquences through out the nation (Divisions: Columbine High School massacre,Columbine High School,Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold). The Kent State shootings had a similar impact (Divisions: Kent State , Kent State shootings). The Jackson State University shooting (a similar event that occured around the same time) was not and does not even have an entry(Divisions: Jackson State University , Jackson State University Shootings). If the Red Lake High School massacre does not become a lasting event there is not a good reason for the division of entries.
Would it not, then, be more prudent to wait and see what develops before merging articles? --Tydaj 00:58, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Maybe we should wait a few days, but if there is substantially more information after the merge it'd be easy to pull the merged information back out. Nickptar 03:32, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It would've been prudent to wait before splitting the articles, but that was done. violet/riga (t) 08:34, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You have a good point there MitreBox --pjv_b 01:50, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

It is far too early to delete or merge these articles. Besides maybe Jackson State University Shooting should have an article, it may not be in the national psyche but it sounds like it was a pretty notable event. see external article -- Lochaber 13:48, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Decision

I think the current organisation of the articles is working out well. We should try to minimise duplication between this and Jeff Weise. violet/riga (t) 18:55, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Angel of Death

Perhaps he had an idea of Josef Mengele AKA "Angel of Death" when he gave himself a name, "Angel of Death" anyone verify that? hard to prove though WB 01:17, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

He used "Angel of Death" as a nickname in a forum on the website www.Nazi.org --pjv_b 01:12, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

I know, so maybe a mention that it might have came from Josef Mengele's name. Maybe his killings? -- WB 02:35, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Probably from the Slayer song, or some other song. Black Sabbath in "Psycho Man" is less likely.

[edit] Related?

Is one of the slain students related to the shooter? There's a fifteen-year-old on the list with the same last name as the shooter's grandfather (Lussier). So the options would be: they are related; it's a coincidence (I doubt it); our information is wrong. In any case, something should be done. If they are related or if that's just a coincidence, we should make a note of either case. If the article is wrong, we obviously need to get the right name for that victim. Regards, Redux 03:33, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well, I have found that names of people on Indian Reservations are normally used for different families.

Whether or not it should have it's on part, is another questions. --insertusernamehere--

[edit] capitalize the "M"

this must be done, at all costs!

Actually, I find the use of the term rather ironic, given US history

[edit] On the topic of "Goth"

You may want to read this... http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/news/politics/11198353.htm Says he was indeed goth...

"...Weise liked heavy metal music and dressed like a "goth," with black clothes, chains on his pants and black spiky hair."
Yeah. So, because he wore black clothes and chains, and listened to heavy metal, he's a Goth. Wrong. This is guilt-by-association. The fact that a professional reporter can't distinguish this is a sad commentary on the state of journalism, but doesn't make it a fact. In the mid 80's, when I was a real Goth, the media called these kids "Punks". And there was much todo about them killing themselves because they listened to Metalica. In the late 60's they were "Radicals". Goth is a code word (figure of speech) to describe today's disaffected youth. Not Jeff Weise.--ghost 30 June 2005 13:30 (UTC)

Miscellany: was wearing bullet-proof vest and taking Prozac Kwantus 16:37, 2005 Mar 25 (UTC)

[edit] Capital M...

I took a long time capitalizing to capital "M", why was it reverted? -- WB 23:25, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)

Two reasons:
  1. You should never copy and paste moves because it ruins the edit history of an article (which is very important to keep)
  2. There is no reason for it to be capitalised
HTH violet/riga (t) 23:27, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Since the redirect page was pre-existing, I could not move... anyway, now I know. I thought it was important to capitalize such events. I guess it doesn't matter so much -- -- WB 00:20, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
The Wikipedia:Manual of Style is that only proper nouns are capitalised - the school name is therefore in capitals but "massacre" is not. For moves that cannot be done using the normal method you can contact an admin to do it for you - Wikipedia:Requested moves is the best place for that. violet/riga (t) 00:28, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Louis Jourdain arrested

[5]Should this information be included into this article at this time? --EisenKnoechel 17:48, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

  • Yes - even if the charges are never filed or later dropped its a relevent development --Mitrebox 06:48, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Extraneous bits

I don't see what Bush or Schiavo has to do with this article. I'm taking out the paragraph.--AllanBz 21:08, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Text removed:

President George W. Bush was criticized for not providing an immediate reaction to the shootings as Bill Clinton had done earlier for the Columbine slayings. Some were particularly disgruntled because earlier the same day, Bush had returned from his Crawford, Texas ranch to the White House to sign legislation aimed at keeping Terri Schiavo alive.

I disagree with that the administration's respose was irrelevant to the article. However, reinserting it as is seems to interrupt the flow of the article. So I added the a Washington Post article discussing the issue in References. Some relevant quotes:

"The fact that Bush preempted his vacation to say something about Ms. Schiavo and here you have 10 native people gunned down and he can't take time to speak is very telling," said David Wilkins, interim chairman of the Department of American Indian Studies at the University of Minnesota and a member of the North Carolina-based Lumbee tribe.[6]
Mr. Bush talked to Floyd Jourdain Jr., chairman of the Red Lake Band of Chippewa, for five minutes Friday morning, offering his sympathy for the victims of a teen-ager's shooting rampage and the entire Red Lake community and pledging to provide federal assistance, White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said.[7]
Mr (Clyde) Bellecourt pointed out that Mr. Bush broke off his holiday to sign emergency legislation on Monday concerning the case of a brain-damaged woman, but did not comment then on the Minnesota deaths.[8]

[edit] CCHR link removed

I removed the following from references:

CCHR is a front group for Scientology and I don't think their contention that flies cause garbage is germane to this article. Also the contributor, 83.248.150.251, made the same edit to several other pages in a way that was clearly vandalism. For example, he added it to the top of the article on psychiatry. Bgeer 5 July 2005 23:46 (UTC)

We really need a statement in the article that he was taking the drugs, though. If that's all we can find, then that should be put in there, Scientologists or not. --Golbez July 6, 2005 00:09 (UTC)

[edit] A little dramatic, huh?

The friend ducked and then, as the article states "felt something warm and wet coating her jeans." It was Lussier's blood.

Seems a little dramatic t'me -- not taking it out, just saying, MHO. --Jack (Cuervo) 03:26, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I thought the same thing when I read it. I'll go edit it slightly now, just enough so that it doesn't read like something out of an adventure story. Heather 17:40, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link Removed

Just as a note, the link to the forum pages is gone. --70.240.197.234 14:19, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

I'm changing the Chase Lussier paragraph. The phrase "foolishly wasted himself for this girl" is nowhere near NPOV.(And it's pretty damn insulting too.)Mealstrom 08:14, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia?

Should the article really group aftermath and trivia together? Furthermore, I think that the word "trivia" is too glib or upbeat for an article about a tragedy. It seems disrespectful, although perhaps Wikipedia's regulations state that trivia is the proper title.

[edit] Prozac

What is common regarding people who use SSRI drugs like prozac is that no blood or tissue levels are taken. There is a wide range of elimination rates for these drugs, so the fact that most people are not violent while taking them does not address the variance in blood levels that exists in the population.

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Red Lake High School-aerial color.jpg

Image:Red Lake High School-aerial color.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 08:41, 21 January 2008 (UTC)