Talk:Red Dirt (music)

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Contents 1 Info. on the following artists? 2 Overhauling List of Artists 3 Texas Country vs. Red Dirt 3.1 Actual Google results for 21 Dec 06 4 More Texan than Oklahoman 5 This doesn't have to be a TX/OK fight. 6 I agree, but.... 7 Jarrod Birmingham 8 Woody Guthrie

[edit] Info. on the following artists?

When cleaning up the artist list, I was unable to find any info. on the following bands (with whom I'm unfamiliar) to either affirm or disaffirm that they are Red Dirt artists. All of them either don't have web sites or had highly incomplete/uninformative sites. A couple of them didn't even have a single google search result other than this wiki entry and the answers.com mirror, which makes me think they can't possibly be legit. (Is it possible to play a single gig and not have your name mentioned anywhere on the internet in this day and age?) To err on the side of caution I left them in for now, but would like information on any of them so that we can keep this entry as accurate as possible.

• 4Runner
• A.A. Boston
• Dusty Reavis
• Miss Behavin'
• Trevor Burgess

152.228.97.28

[edit] Overhauling List of Artists

Well, I finally took the plunge and began overhauling the list of artists since nobody raised an objection or took it upon themselves to do. I removed the artists that I know for a fact have no ties with Stillwater, the Red Dirt scene, or even Oklahoma at all. Among these were Todd Snider, James McMurtry, Bruce Robison, Cory Morrow, Reckless Kelly, Slaid Cleaves, etc. Please understand that I have nothing against these artists (some are even among my all-time favorites), but while some have sounds similar to some Red Dirt artists, they are not Red Dirt. Most should be listed under "Texas Country" instead, and their inclusion here is part of what has led to the misconception that Texas Country and Red Dirt are the same thing. Hopefully this will help clear up some of the confusion.

I'm being very conservative for now in that I'm leaving any artist that could even remotely be considered Red Dirt by some. (For example, Ray Wylie Hubbard was never a part of the Red Dirt thing, but was born in Oklahoma before moving to Texas as a child, so I left him though I don't really think he should be there.) I'm also leaving a LOT of artists on the list because I've never heard of them. While I'm pretty sure the vast majority of them are not Red Dirt (I lived in Stillwater 11 of the last 14 years, including the hayday of Red Dirt in the mid-to-late 90's), I can't say that for a fact, so I'm leaving them for now. It would be helpful if any fans of these bands who know they have no ties to Red Dirt or Oklahoma would remove them or move them to Texas Country.

I'm also removing some of the external links that cover Texas Country much more than Red Dirt, and adding some more specific to Red Dirt. Furthermore, I removed the photo of a member of Eleven Hundred Springs, who are not Red Dirt. If I can figure out how to add photos, I'll add one of a representative Red Dirt artists such as Bob Childers, Red Dirt Rangers, Tom Skinner, or Mike McClure to go with the Ragweed photo. 71.120.34.169 21:35, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I, too, have been cleaning up the artist list, but also erring on the side of caution in making sure I leave anyone in who could even possibly be tangientially related to the Stillwater (or even all of Oklahoma, to use the broader definition)scene, beyond having just played there. (Any of the Red Dirt founders will tell you the scene is more about inclusion than anything, so I kept that in mind.) I also did not remove any artists I couldn't find info. on, to err on the safe side. (See above.)

Many of the artists I removed are clearly 100% "Texas Country" with no Red Dirt ties whatsoever. (In these cases I tend to assume they were included by fans who innocently aren't aware that "Texas Country" and "Red Dirt" are not one in the same.) Many more were from Nashville and appeared to be up-and-coming mainstream country bands with publicity machines working for them. (In these cases I assume they're being listed everywhere in order to maximize exposure. I'm all in favor of bands promoting themselves however they can, but wiki is intended to be a factually accurate encyclopedia, not an ad service.) Still others were local bands from AL, MO, VA, FL, GA, NV, CA, and Ontario, with no apparent ties to either Oklahoma OR Texas. (In these cases I can only scratch my head!)152.228.97.28

[edit] Texas Country vs. Red Dirt

In Texas this type of music, made in either Texas or Oklahoma is called Texas Country - "Red Dirt Music" is used primarily (I would say only) by Okies. Also, the folks working out of Lubbock, Fort Worth, and Austin might not like the fact that "Red Dirt" music eminates from Stillwater. I believe this article (and others) reflects the views of someone from Oklahoma who believes that the genre is Oklahoman - it is equally (if not more in the end) derived from Texas and its LONG musical tradition. (Before any Okie gets mad, yes I am from Texas, but the roots of this music are Texan: from Bob Wills to Willie and Waylon to Jerry Jeff to Robert Earl to the bands that have sprung up in Texas AND Oklahoma since the mid 1990s.

Texas country and Red Dirt music are the same things. I believe that a merger must be made somehow. I believe, if you do a Google search for "Red Dirt music" vs. "Texas country music", you get far more links for the latter. Any suggestions? TuckerResearch 20:46, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

They should not be merged, as they are not the same thing. Red Dirt Music refers to a specific scene based in Stillwater, OK, though it has spread far beyond that in recent years (after being there almost exclusively from the 70's through the 90's). It's a mixture of folk, country, bluegrass, blues and rock, rather than being a subgenre of country music. It is not AT ALL the same thing as "Texas Country" music, though that is a rather common misunderstanding, particularly in Texas. So you needn't worry about artists working out of Lubbock, Ft. Worth, or Austin taking offense at Red Dirt being based out of Stillwater, because they aren't Red Dirt artists. (The exceptions would be a few, like Jimmy LaFave, Ragweed, or Brandon Jenkins, who got their starts in the Stillwater scene and relocated to Texas, and they would be the first to acknowledge that Red Dirt is from Stillwater. LaFave was the first to bring the term "red dirt music" to Texas from Stillwater.) The vast majority of the artists listed here are Texas Country artists, not Red Dirt artists, and should be removed from this entry and/or relocated to the Texas Country entry. (I might do so soon under the "be bold" philosophy.) Red Dirt should not, under any circumstances, be merged into Texas Country. 71.115.91.118 01:04, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and for what it's worth, I've lived in both Stillwater and Austin, and love the hell out of the music from both places. I just think lumping them together shows a real lack of understanding of both scenes and does a disservice to them both. 71.115.91.118 01:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Actual Google results for 21 Dec 06

For what it's worth:

• About 295,000 for "texas country" music. (0.10 seconds)
• About 374,000 for "red dirt" music. (0.15 seconds)

• About 633,000 for "red dirt". (1.75 seconds)
• About 484,000 for "texas country". (0.22 seconds)

• About 56,900 for "texas country music". (0.26 seconds)
• About 27,900 for "red dirt music". (0.30 seconds)

• About 20,600 for "texas red dirt" music. (0.25 seconds)
• About 250 for "red dirt texas" music. (0.82 seconds)

Google results, of course, are misleading. Multiple counts for the same entry; search terms found on pages unrelated to the wanted subject; results don't rate pages for reliablity information; etc. So take your pick.

Another note of interest. From reading some of the results, Texas music, or even Texas country, are kind of general terms and don't always refer to a specific kind of music.

68.97.84.164 01:23, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

See, here is the big problem with pigeonholing music into GENRES, they are constricting. Jason Boland & The Stragglers are based out of Stillwater, but they play good ol' Texas honky tonk, western swing, Waylonesque stuff; are they "Red Dirt" or "Texas Country"? And though they have a significant base around Stillwater, they are basically worshipped on some campuses in Texas. Cody Canada is from Pampa, Texas? Which one? This is a mess. I suggest we set that on both Red Dirt and Texas Country articles that we recognize the close affinity between the two and set up criteria as to which artist goes. TuckerResearch 05:31, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, genres are constricting and can never be 100% defined and agreed upon. For the sake of an encyclopedic entry, however, we should strive to be as accurate as possible. Also, Red Dirt isn't so much a genre as a scene of artists who were friends and supported each other as they were coming up in Stillwater, and later as they spread throughout Oklahoma and into Texas. The actual genres of the various artists range from folk to country to blues-rock to jam band to complete hybrids of all of the above, but they're all "red dirt". In the examples you use, Boland/Stragglers and Ragweed could and should be listed under both "red dirt" and "texas country" (as could Stoney LaRue, Jimmy LaFave, and several others), because they both started in Stillwater as part of the Red Dirt scene and still identify strongly with that scene, while many members of both bands have relocated to Texas, their largest fan bases are in Texas, and they play (at least in part) country music. There are many more Texas country bands, however, who have no ties to Red Dirt whatsoever, but are mistakenly referred to as "red dirt" by people who don't understand the difference.

In other words, there is a lot of overlap between the two groups, yet they are clearly not the same thing. (Not all Texas Country artists are Red Dirt artists, and vice versa.)152.228.97.28

[edit] More Texan than Oklahoman

I agree with TuckerResearch that the article describes a genre that is usually affiliated with Texas rather than Oklahoma. The term "Red Dirt" seems to be used in popular contexts (e.g., on XM radio's X-Country or KHYI out of Plano, TX to refer to only a handful of bands from OK such as Cross Canadian Ragweed, Stoney Larue, and No Justice. Musically, there seems to be no great distinction between artists in this genre and those that are often referred to as Texas Country or "hard country." Seeing that the better known artists in listed on this page (save for CCR and Stoney Larue), the biggest of these artists (Smith Music Group), and the "elder statesmen" (Ray Wylie Hubbard and Robert Earl Keen) are all out Texas and strongly associated with that state, I think the Red Dirt moniker is inapt. Texas country or hard country seem more appropriate. I think it's better to talk about the Red Dirt "scene" rather than genre, much as the word is used to describe groups of artists from Austin or Houston.

For the record, I'm a Midwesterner living in Virginia, so I have no dog in the TX/OK fight.

Not that it should affect things either way, since (once again) Red Dirt and Texas Country are not the same thing, but for the sake of setting the record straight, Ray Wylie Hubbard is from Oklahoma and made it big in Texas. Inversely, Bob Wills was from Texas and made it big in Oklahoma. There are obviously a lot of artists with ties to both states. Even Woody Guthrie, the spritual father of Red Dirt music, lived in Pampa, Texas for a few years between his time in Oklahoma and California. 71.115.91.118 01:25, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This doesn't have to be a TX/OK fight.

I am a proud native Texan, and will never leave, but I also know that there is a lot of great Country coming out of Oklahoma. (I am a huge Stoney fan) I believe that what is most important here is the Red Dirt artists and their fans are showing Nashville that we don't have to depend on their carbon-copy crap anymore.

[edit] I agree, but....

I agree, a lot of good music comes out of Oklahoma, but I'm saying most people don't call it "Red Dirt Music," they call it "Texas Country" or "Texas Music." I too love Stoney Larue. I am objecting to calling it "Red Dirt Music," or this quote from the article: "Red Dirt is a rising genre of music based in and around Stillwater, Oklahoma." That is patently false. And "Stillwater is the 'Nashville' of Red Dirt music"? You can replace Stillwater with Fort Worth, Austin, or Lubbock and it would be more truthful, but probably still not correct. It is a flexible "genre" out of many bases. But "Red Dirt Music"? There are Texas Music Charts: http://www.texasmusicchart.com/ - there is a Texas Music Magazine: http://www.texasmusicchart.com/. There is no such thing for "Red Dirt Music."

I am for merging this article with Texas County and noting that it is also called "Red Dirt Music" in some circles, especially those out of Oklahoma. Also, the Red Dirt article is just a list of band and artist names, but the Texas Country article is actually an encyclopedia article.

Gene Rhea Tucker TuckerResearch 20:01, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

As a fair minded Texan, I see both views (understanding that the OKians would hate to lose recognition of thier quality artists be labeled as Texas artists), but a bunch of artists are associated now with Texas Country, using relating the music to coming out of Austin. There are at least a couple songs I have heard about Austin verus Nashville or relating to the difference of Nashville Country to Austin/Texas Country. I'll be honest. I've never heard the term Red Dirt before. I've been to Pat green (before making Nashville), Jason Boland, CCR(before Nashville), Django Walker, Cory Morrow, and plenty others (as well as hearing and reading ads for others) and only heard the Genre Refered to as Texas Country, or occasionally Alternative Country and Southern rock/ Southern Country. Maybe it relates to my proximity to Houston, but at this point there is little to this article other than the list of artists and I don't see a reason this couldn't be merged into a more complete article refering to other genres of Country Music. Basically I am putting up a weak merge vote... Feedloadr 09:37, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

That's because all the artists you mention ARE Texas Country artists. Only Boland/Stragglers, of all of those, are from the Red Dirt scene before relocating from Stillwater to Texas. None of the rest of those should be listed here, and if they are, feel free to remove them, but do not merge Red Dirt into "country". As I previously stated, Red Dirt is NOT just a type of country music. It's a specific scene from a specific area incorporating many different styles of music. 71.120.34.169 05:49, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

NO MERGE! -NOT THE SAME THING! -similar yes, overlap, yes. Same thing? Absolutely not, and anyone who says they are is a biased Texan or completely clueless. No offense, but I can show newspaper articles from places like Colorado & Missouri & Illinois that show a clear undestanding by professional music critics that RED DIRT music is a native Oklahoman phenomena. Try looking at all those google results mentioned above --the # of hits don't really matter--the content of just a few sites will show a clear distinction is made in the minds of the informed. If you disagree, fine, everyone has the right to be flat-out wrong.

[edit] Jarrod Birmingham

Check this guy out he is really good my 2nd favorite next to Waylon.And he is real country. Ihatebubblegumcountry 18:10, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Woody Guthrie

An explanation, like in that recent edit summary that reverted my removal of him, in the article about why Woody is included in the list would be very helpful. Katr67 15:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Good point. There's really a LOT about the history and development of Red Dirt music in Stillwater (with Bob Childers, Jimmy LaFave, the Skinner Bros., Steve Ripley, Chuck Dunlap, even Garth, etc.) that needs to be included, as well as some of the Okie forebearers to and influences on the sound, such as Woody Guthrie, Bob Wills, Chet Baker, and Angie Debo. I haven't managed to get around to doing that yet, and apparently nobody else who knows the scene has, either. It's more than enough work so far just to keep people from confusing it with Texas Country, it seems. Thanks for being understanding of my reverting your removal of Woody, as I think he's far too essential to the roots of Red Dirt to not be included.71.120.34.169 01:44, 15 February 2007 (UTC)