Wikipedia talk:Record charts

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[edit] Philippines charts

If anyone encounters a "Philippine Hot 100" or "Philippine Hot Hits" on any non-Filipino song article, remove it since it is a hoax. Thanks. --Howard the Duck 14:06, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Many times since these IPs formulated "Philippine Hot 100". Absolutely its a hoax. --Efe (talk) 11:54, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Fake" charts?

There seems to be a problem with "fake" charts, which is getting worse. Is there a running list of countries that do NOT have an official national chart? I know one of the Japanese charts is not official (I don't remember which one) and I've seen edits removing charts from Hong Kong and Bulgaria as being fakes. Perhaps these should be documented so that they stop getting added to so many song articles? - eo (talk) 12:48, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea, though I would suggest such a list should be limited to the talk page rather than the main article. Let's see, we have: Hong Kong, Bulgaria, non-national Philippines charts (per above), and non-Billboard Turkey charts (something I've been dealing with). I wonder if such a list might be put into a right side box under the Archive box? — Huntster (t • @ • c) 18:08, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I think an ongoing problem will be that people use http://acharts.us/ as a source. In fact, its listed as a source in this guideline. The thing about that site is that their information IS correct and very thorough for charts that are official (U.S., Canada, UK, Germany, Ireland, etc.)... but they also include the minor markets and I'm not sure where they get them or why they include stuff like, for example, Bulgaria. So what to do? - eo (talk) 19:18, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Dare I suggest that we establish a strict recommendation regarding which charts/countries to consider and which to avoid? There's no easy way to go about this and remain neutral, and I only say this since this guideline already sets a limit to the number of charts to include.
When I do pare down charts, I typically go in this order of inclusion: Local market > geographical surrounding markets (sometimes) > English-speaking markets (since this is the English wiki) > other markets based on size and perceived market power. I find this gives a decent cross-section, and it tends to significantly cut out a lot of the questionable/unsourceable chart figures. It isn't...completely...NPOV, but it has worked well so far. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 20:24, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
So, is this Billboard Turkish chart real? Funk Junkie (talk) 20:05, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
I think that the confusion comes from Billboard reporting charts from around the world and posting them online and in their print editions. I don't know which particular charts they pick from each country, but they do have a "hits of the world" section. The way they have it displayed, with the Billboard logo up top may lead people to think that Billboard compiles the charts, but as far as I know, they only create charts for the U.S. and Canada. - eo (talk) 20:11, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Billboard also does the new Japan Hot 100. [1] Thankyoubaby (talk) 06:29, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Succession boxes

Where must succession boxes be placed: after references, after chart tables, or before references? Funk Junkie (talk) 20:15, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

While there is no hard guideline that I know of for this, I suggest that, because it is a kind of navbox, they should always be placed as in example one. However, not just after references, but after all content (if any) except for other navboxes (which should be the last thing on the page). — Huntster (t • @ • c) 20:36, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks! Funk Junkie (talk) 16:29, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 20 or 18?

This sentence seems contradictory to me "The number of charts should include no more than ten national charts, and up to ten additional charts, but no more than eighteen charts total.". I mean can we add 20 charts or 18? If it's only 18 then I think it can be worded better. TeePee-20.7 (talk) 15:39, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, a bit strange, but it is a maximum of 18 charts. Basically, up to ten national charts + up to ten additional charts, to a maximum of eighteen charts. Mix and match as you will, but say if you only have three nationals, you may still only have up to ten additional, for a max of 13 charts. This is just to limit the number on any given article, given that you'll occasionally find that one with 30-odd charts. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 15:47, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Is WP:Record charts a style guideline?

This says that it's part of the Manual of Style in the infobox, but it's not in the Style sidebar, and it's not in the style guidelines cat. The current thinking on style guidelines is: anyone can create them, and they're as official as they need to be, until and unless we have reason to believe they're not. Does anyone know of a reason why this shouldn't be in the style guidelines category? - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 20:06, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Probably because this rather rapidly grew from a fairly small proposal to maturing and someone slapping the guideline template on it, and going no further. Feel free to add/propose it if you wish, but something tells me it would need to be discussed somewhere before it gains real inclusion. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 04:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Huntster. I posted a notice at WT:WikiProject Music; if you know anyone else to ask, ask away. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 05:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Worldwide charts?

What about Worldwide charts and EU charts? I would argue they should come last, since they act as a summary for everything else. Any opinions? Drewcifer (talk) 09:24, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd personally rather put charts in alphabetical order, just like it's seen in most of articles. Funk Junkie (talk) 22:39, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
So you would put Worldwide in between Turkey and Zimbabwe? (Only country names I could think of close to W). That doesn't make much sense to me. Drewcifer (talk) 08:48, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I always place conglomerate charts (typically only Worldwide) at the end, both because they act as a summary and because it makes no sense to mix them in. But, I don't see any need to regulate such placement. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 20:57, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Japan Hot 100

Apparently Billboard will now publish a Japan Hot 100. Details here. Anyone know if this chart can be considered Japan's official singles chart? - eo (talk) 02:33, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I would consider it "official", or at least accurate, as compared to the Tokio Hot 100, which a lot of articles use. Thankyoubaby (talk) 06:35, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't think it can be considered "official" any more than Billboard is "official" here in the U.S. Accurate, most likely, but don't call it official unless something else calls it as such. Kind of pedantic, I know, but an important clarification I believe. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 07:04, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] References in single chart tables

Where should the reference for a chart position go in a table, beside the chart name or beside the position? Thankyoubaby (talk) 06:33, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I personally recommend placing refs beside the number, since we are, after all, citing the figure first and foremost, not just the chart. As with the above "Worldwide charts?" section, however, I see no need to regulate placement. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 07:04, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The 10/18 national/other chart rule

"The number of charts should include no more than ten national charts, and up to ten additional charts, but no more than eighteen charts total."

This seems to be causing a lot of conflict and confusion across various pages. This is partly due to haphazard editing of song/album pages with certain editors fixating on specific songs to limit the chart entries to just 10 national charts (having made no other contribution to updating the page itself through its history)and arbitrarily removing charts at will with no real value judgment as to what should and should not stay. This then causes frustration when other songs/albums aren't policed as strictly. If the chart limitation was policed across the board it would cause far less conflict. But that's just a procedural thing.

To me the major problem with the rule is it's US-centric. By allowing upto 10 extra genre charts (8 if you have your full quota of 10 national charts) it panders to Billboard and the USA's genre-specific music scene. Outwith the USA, these separations aren't considered anywhere near as noteworthy.

For major worldwide hits it is far more informative to include just the Billboard Hot100 position from the USA and then 17 other national charts (if you want to keep the 18 chart limit). This gives breadth to the scope of the song or album's achievement and place within the history of charting popular music.

As such the national chart of the Netherlands is far more important the Billboard Dance Club Play yet the former can not be posted if ten other national charts already exist, whereas the latter can. That is placing an unnecessary restriction on what is a worldwide encyclopedia.

I propose a change to 18 charts in total and a removal of the artificial 10/18 rule. Leipzigger98 (talk) 00:04, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Thankyoubaby (talk) 05:14, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I also agree, especially concerning non-U.S. hits. - eo (talk) 11:48, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I think that the table should include more than 20 charts overall. What happened to the old chart tables? They use to be lengthy, but now because of this they are all shorter compared to what they use to be. JayJ47 (talk) 09:36, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Digital Charts

Should digital download charts be included in the chart? Grk1011 (talk) 23:17, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

No reason why not, I suppose, so long as it wasn't a component chart. Which chart is it? — Huntster (t • @ • c) 08:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, wouldnt a digital chart be the same thing as a sales-only chart? That to me is a component chart and should be included only if it does not hit the "main" chart. - eo (talk) 11:46, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I usually included Hot Digital Songs at least, since it doesn't seem to be a component chart. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells•Otter chirps) 22:45, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hot 100/Bubbling Under

Is there a consensus as for the proper listing of a song that has entered the Bubbling Under Hot 100 but not the actual Hot 100 chart? Several editors, including myself, use #'s 101 thru 125 for Bubbling Under positions; for instance, Ashton Shepherd's "Takin' Off This Pain" peaked at #16 on the Bubbling Under Hot 100, so I put 116 in the Hot 100 column. Is this an acceptable method of indicating a Bubbling Under peak? Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells•Otter chirps) 17:10, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] United World Chart

I've noticed that United World Chart has been deleted Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/United World Chart, due to problems with source coverage. Does that mean that we should still keep the chart positions; or remove them in thousands of discographies, song and album articles, because the chart has no article and is non-notable? I'm really interested to know. RaNdOm26 (talk) 11:27, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Technically I guess it should be removed, right? Ugh, what a task that will be. Hot100Brasil was also just deleted, so there's even more things to get rid of. - eo (talk) 11:45, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
What happened? This chart has been allowed so a number of song-related articles passed as FA. --Efe (talk) 11:56, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Why was the article deleted in the first place? It is significant, and should've been improved upon not deleted entirely. JayJ47 (talk) 05:12, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Comment: No the chart positions shouldn't be removed because it is a significant chart. JayJ47 (talk) 05:13, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Just go to the link I gave above, and no, its not a significant chart. Does this mean that we should delete the chart positions from ALL articles? I'm surprised - this should've been brought up long ago. RaNdOm26 (talk) 11:28, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Not now. It must be a concrete concensus before removing this chart. It has been widely used so its a waste of time removing and adding without final decision. --Efe (talk) 11:58, 12 June 2008 (UTC)