Talk:Real Aikido
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I don't really understand you. What do you mean when you say that I may not write about it?? Of course I can!
The fact is, YOU may not write about it! If you had read wikipedia policies you would have seen that it is considered unapropriate if you write about yourself. So, it turns out I can write about it and you can't.
I didn't put this copyright violation notice, and I believe you that you are from the sites that hold the copied material, I know there is no problem. But, you need to understand that it is not enough just to come and say "Hey, it's OK, that is my site", you have to somehow prove it, you have to have somekind of an official permission to use the material, or prove that you youself are the copyright holder of the text. Just saying "It's OK", won't work.
And even when you do settle the copyright issue, the article you put is not apropriate for a wikipedia article, because it violates some wikipedia policies and etiquette. As I already said, you can't write about yourself (or your organisation), the article also contained POVs ("Point of View"). For example, if I remeber correctly, it said that Real aikido is very flexibile and efficient. That is a point of view! How can you prove it is like that, it doesn't mean anything.
I looked at the article about Vracarevic, and it is the same story... I think it is just copy/paste from wcra site (haven't had the time to check), bunch of POVs (Vracarevic great master, a children's training program that "gives wonderfull results" etc.) and so on... I'm sorry, but that is not how things can be written in an encyclopaedia article.
I guess What I wrote isn't perfect either (nothing ever is ;) ), but at least it is from an external party, and it tries to avoid POV.
The reason why Aikikai doesn't wan't to recognise your "style" I tried to explain in the article. The bottom is Real aikido IS NOT aikido. It is not just a different style of aikido, it is a completely different martial art! And since I'm on the talk page let me give you a bit of POV ;) - even worse reason is the constant insulting your soke is directing towards aikido. What the hell does "real" aikido mean anyway?? Does it mean that regular aikido is somehow "imaginary" or what?? Depriving the art of aikido of it's philosophical part is not just incorrect from the side of facts, as I said in the article, but it is also considered a grat insult to people that train aikido and to O-sensei himself. And the claim that you have somekind of support from japanese senseis is an outright lie! If soke Vracarevic earned any respect in Japan real aikido would be recognised by aikikai. In fact they are pissed off :).
Now, the bottom line is, it is not important if you have any recognition, if you think you are doing the right stuff then do it! But if you don't respect any of the principles of aikido laid down by O'sensei and his students why the hell do you call your art aikido?? Why must you confuse people? Is it because you enjoy the "commercial" appeal of the name "Aikido"? This is what aikikai finds unacceptable! No one has anything against your art, but please, don't call it aikido, because it is not.
You said it youself, it it is a mixture of yoshinkan (by the way, aikikai is NOT a style of aikido, it is an organisation of aikido that has many styles in it, just about every aikikai shihan has his own "style"), ju-justsu, aiki-jutsu and Vracarevic's own techniques. Now, I don't know about his techniques, but I know that ju-jutsu and aiki-jutsu are NOT aikido (similar in some way, but not aikido), so therefore, RA IS NOT AIKIDO!
And as for the article, I welcome you to take part in editing it and fix if I wrote something that is not true. This is the reason I marked it as a stub --- I don't feel that I know enough about the technical side of RA, and I wanted someone to fill it with more accurate data. Thanks!
And, Adil, and all the others that practice RA, please no hard feelings, it is not my intention to cause them!
--Sabate 00:48, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Controversy
This section needs to be re-worked. The primary reason for lack of recognition is a lack of verifiable and noteable lineage. There is too much variation in the Aikido world with respect to spirituality for that to be a reason and as for ethics - one really should give an example where "Real Aikido" teaches unethical behavior. We should aim for a NPOV.
Furthermore, exercises that are considered fundamental to aikido, such as breathing execises, are completely ignored in real aikido.
Again - what you consider fundamental I might not. It really depends on the style.
What "adds fuel to the fire" is Vračarević's derogatory behavior towards "traditional" aikido he often expresses in the media and public in general. This often leads to a false image of aikido as an art that does not "work" in "real situations", which is not true because technical effectiveness of a martial art can not be determined a priori, but is a result of the situaion itself and the mastery of the individual that is applying a certain art. Therefore, we can imagine any martial art as both being effective and ineffective depending on a range of conditions. The claim of aikido uneffectiveness is further invalidated by the fact that most, if not all, schools of aikido conduct a thorough analysis of each technique from the standpoint of its offensive and defensive characteristics and capabilities.
This is more of an appology for Aikido in general and frankly Vračarević's is on stronger ground here. I would keep the first sentence followed by something along the lines of This self-serving behaviour has led to bitter relationships with neighboring Aikido groups.Peter Rehse 03:04, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
This section needs to be re-worked. The primary reason for lack of recognition is a lack of verifiable and noteable lineage.
...
I would keep the first sentence followed by something along the lines of This self-serving behaviour has led to bitter relationships with neighboring Aikido groups
- Yes, I agree. I myself wasn't pretty satisfied with the way this section turned out, but I wrote it in a rush and didn't really take care of details and principles. I will now try to rework it with these suggestions keeping it minimal. --Sabate 17:35, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
OK, I reworked the controversy section which now focuses on lineage. If you think it still needs some modification please feel free to make them so we can then move this page out of Temp.
I also edited the introduction a bit. After some inquiries it turns out it is not certain what special military and police forces he trained if any (on his sites some russian units are mentioned, but these claims can not be reliably confirmed). It is only certain that he took part in training Muammar al-Qaddafi's and Mugabe's and some other president's bodyguards. --Sabate 01:03, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I asked the person who put the original copywrite notice in to replace it with the /temp version. I suggest we leave it as is and see what happens. I also mentioned the Vračarević entry and that I didn't know what tags were appropriate.Peter Rehse 02:18, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
The Real_Aikido/Temp article has now been moved to the main page and I have put in a request for deletion of the Temp article.Peter Rehse 11:14, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I have written a new article on Real_Aikido/Temp. Instead of a bunch of POVs made in the first copyright-infringing article, I tried to explain what real aikido is and add a part that deals with the conflict on the line real aikido - aikikai community (serbian and international). --Sabate 04:47, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] thanks
Very thanks for it. If you written it thanks but you may not write about it. The copyrighted article which i placed was the article written about us. No problem.
I want to add little comment.
Real Aikidokas dont conflicts with any styles. Confilcts come from Aikikai federations :( They dont want to recognize our style. And i cant say that real aikido uses any judo technics. It`s not very correct.
Real Aikido based on Aikido aikikai, yoshinkan, jiu-jitsu and especially taked many technics from Aiki-Jitsu and modified. I must say that master Vracarevich showed us his own technics which he created himself.
--AdilAliev 09:51, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Ljubomir Vracarevich was graded by Hiroshi Tada, Kishomaru Ueshiba and 7 DAN he got from Shida Gozo.
- Right - that has got to be proved. Especially the 7th Dan from Shioda.Peter Rehse 03:07, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
8,9,10 DAN he got from United States Martial Arts Hall of Fame
