Talk:Raygun

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[edit] Tesla

  • There is no mention of Tesla with his "death beam" Kmill 02:52, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The hyperboloid of engineer Garin

The following sentence removed since I cant get what does it mean: Its name seems to have been re-interpreted as Greek for "resembling something which throws/fires above".--Nixer 15:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fictional or not? Please pick one!

"All or most rayguns are fictional" sounds nonsense. Continued with "as far as now known". As far as known by who? If "it is known that bear is a mammal", you don't say "bear is mammal as far as known", right? Or is the sentence trying to say "as far as Wikipedians know"?

  • Could someone correct the sentence to state: "All rayguns are fictional" or "Most of rayguns are fictional"? If one of the claims is true, the another one simply can't. Hiilidioksidi 22:00, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I don't know what is happening in all the world's secret energy weapon labs. Thre are some recent real weapons which may be classed as rayguns, but usually are not. As I put in the article:-
See directed-energy weapon for various real weapons which are more or less like rayguns.

Anthony Appleyard 22:06, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

    • In other words all the known rayguns are fictional - besides the fact that there are guns which "some people categorize as rayguns, but which although are not usually classified like that. Hiilidioksidi 22:29, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
  • What was wrong with my edit Anthony? --24.57.157.81 22:45, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • My four directly-typed See ... lines are clearer and more informative than the short unspecific result of the "Otheruses4" template. What is this phobia against directly-typed "See ..." lines? Also, with modern real energy weapon developments, saying "There is no real raygun" is getting like a matter of definition what is a raygun and what is not. Anthony Appleyard 06:15, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I know, that's why I figured just have this page about fictional rayguns. The whole article is already all about fictional ones anyway. Your links were good, I just thought it would be more hierarchial with just a link to directed-energy weapons, then readers can go from there. 24.57.157.81 09:31, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

The Air Force's Airborne Laser will be the first high power laser weapon system deployed. This has the power output and range reminisent of the 1953 version of War of the Worlds. See Air Force link below. http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/abl/index.html

[edit] Citation for Capacity of handheld devices

Supercapacitors chart
Supercapacitors chart

It is unlikely that any current "rayguns" can compete with existing firearms. It may be possible to carry a raygun which could kill, but it would be too bulky and cumbersome to be considered for use by the military, unless it was mounted on a vehicle. 16:47, 21 October 2006 User:81.86.146.20

[edit] ****, this article needs a complete rewrite

now where's that template? Blueaster 01:04, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Military ray-gun

Can anyone give any more information on the US Military's new ray gun for crowd control? The CNN article is very brief. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Amphion (talk • contribs) 23:45, 26 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Delete the whole article, geez...

What a horrible article about such a wonderful subject —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vstarre (talk • contribs) 21:09, 6 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Laser gun as Gaming Hardware

what about the input devices using laser to point? they've been called laser guns too. 10:59, 1 April 2007 User:84.72.81.214

[edit] "Raygun" term and overall layout

The name of the article, "Raygun", while a nod to classic sci-fi, seems both dated and a poor descriptive term. As the article itself notes, the ray terminology is more common before the invention of the laser. And rays and beams (connotation of continuous energy stream) don't really capture the many sci-fi weapons with individual bolts or pulses of whatever energy they fire.

It seems a more technical name, Fictional_Energy_Weapons or Directed-energy_Weapons_(fictional), more broadly describes the subject material. Or merge parts of it under Science_fiction_weapon. In fact, the sci-fi weapon article has links for articles on the weapons of various sci-fi settings.

The long list of weapons and descriptions seems pointless, as they all seem to be covered in their own articles. A smaller list, perhaps of the "influential" (either through being well known or the direct inspirations for more popular sci-fi) weapons in sci-fi history would be better use of suce a list. Possibly as its own separate article, eg Science_fiction_weapon_history (or evolution?).

The types section perhaps should make a distinction between "soft" and "hard" sci-fi (and the spectrum between) types, and more distinctly have categories (such as continuous beam types, "bolt" types, laser-like, rapid pulse types - as sort of meta-categories, not an attempt to somehow relate various different settins technologies).

Not sure there needs to be a real rayguns section, since its all covered under the Direct-energy weapons article (and if not, then why not?)

Joiry 19:14, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion of the list of fictional rayguns?

  • I have restored the bulk deletion that User:Eyrian did on Raygun, cutting it back to a stub. Please discuss before such a big deletion. The material in that list is needed to give an impression to the readers of what fictional rayguns are about, and it has stood there since September 2005 without anyone querying it. It may be cruft to someone who is not a science fiction fan, but it is relevant information to science fiction fans. Anthony Appleyard 22:45, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
  • I have again reverted the big deletion. Please discuss this, instead of saying "It is trivia" without waiting to discuss it. Anthony Appleyard 22:50, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
We can discuss it sans trivia as well as with. I refuse to be a party to consensus by timeout, which is what has happened previously. The problem is that that was just a massive list of OR instances of rayguns, basically any fictional gun that shot a beam, without any necessary connection to the concept or analytical depth. That's simply inappropriate for Wikipedia. You will note that several users above share this opinion. --Eyrian 23:08, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
  • It may be trivia to some readers who have less interest in science fiction, but it is important information to many. This table of fictional rayguns seems to me to be a good way to give an impression of what fictional rayguns are about. Please discuss it here and let others' opinions be heard, and leave the text in so participants in this discussiopn can see it and decide about it. Anthony Appleyard 23:10, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
  • We can discuss it sans trivia as well as with.: that is pre-judging that the table text is trivia, before the discussion starts. Anthony Appleyard 23:11, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
    • And the opposite is pre-judging against. It's just a list of items, of which precious few are necessarily rayguns, just beam weapons. This is utterly unacceptable and original research. You will note that several other users agree that the list needs eliminating. It doesn't deserve to stay. The historical and analytical parts do. --Eyrian 23:14, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
  • several other users: How many users? Which users? Anthony Appleyard 23:17, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
    • User:Joiry calls it "pointless", User:Vstarre said the entire article should be deleted (including this list of junk), and User:Blueaster advised a complete rewrite. --Eyrian 23:21, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] DANGER OF 3RR

Anthony, you are in danger of 3RR. Jddphd 23:15, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Eyrian - it doesn't look like you are helping the situation.

Can you both perhaps try to reach a consensus.Jddphd 23:17, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I was pushed over by the reversion of my other useful (and undisputed) changes. Anthony's blind reverts were unacceptable. I can try and reach consensus, but previous attempts have failed. I refuse to allow this to devolve into consensus by timeout, a la thermal lance. --Eyrian 23:19, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Look, I'm just third man in trying on WP:3O for size here. You can try WP:RFC for help if you want. Or I am happy to try to informally mediate. Jddphd 23:22, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Mediation will not work. From my previous dealings, I know that Anthony covets these lists. I consider them trivia, well heaped with original research, that must be excised (and Wikipedia policy is quite clear on the matter). I'm afraid that, if there is going to be consensus, the two of us are going to be on opposite sides of it. --Eyrian 23:25, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Well I have the 3RR on record, let Anthony speak for himself on the matter. If there's no way to get to two of you to sort it out, then we can request other voices. Jddphd 23:28, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I've reverted the edits-BOTH OF THEM VIOLATED THE 3RR.--Xterra1 01:43, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
3RR isn't a club to beat people, it's an indication of shady behavior. Otherwise, I would've blocked Anthony the second he violated it. The consensus on the talk page seemed to me to indicate that this list wasn't worthwhile, and that's been my observation of general Wikipedia consensus on AfD. Reverting against consensus, as Anthony did, cannot be permitted. --Eyrian 14:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Here's lookin' at you,Eyrian! You both violated the 3RR.--Xterra1 15:47, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I reverted the removal of good faith content (dab page). --Eyrian 15:50, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Thanks, Xterra1. Here for information is a timeline of this revert war in Raygun, with counts:
  • X1: 01:41, 26 July 2007 User:Xterra1 (21,222 bytes) (Undid revision 147101926 by Eyrian (talk) Stupid-Also violated 3RR)
  • E4: 23:13, 25 July 2007 User:Eyrian (5,232 bytes) (rv; you're reverting against consensus, the history remains public, and there were several other minor changes you aren't addressing. Try not to revert blindly.)
  • A3: 23:06, 25 July 2007 User:Anthony Appleyard (21,222 bytes) (Rv so that participants in the discussion can see what the the discussion is about)
  • E3: 23:03, 25 July 2007 User:Eyrian (5,232 bytes) (rv; we can discuss this version. Wikipedia is WP:NOT a trivia collection)
  • A2: 22:51, 25 July 2007 User:Anthony Appleyard (21,222 bytes) (Rv again. Please discuss it in Talk:Raygun#Deletion of the list of fictional rayguns?)
  • E2: 22:42, 25 July 2007 User:Eyrian (5,232 bytes) (rv; invalid reason. Trivia it remains, and as trivia it is purged)
  • A1: 22:35, 25 July 2007 User:Anthony Appleyard (21,222 bytes) (Rv massive deletion. The affected matter has stood here for well over a year un-queried.)
  • E1: 19:21, 25 July 2007 User:Eyrian (5,232 bytes) (remove trivial, move dab references)
  • I made my revert A2 because Eyrian made his revert E2 before I could finish typing a start to a discussion about this. Anthony Appleyard 06:24, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Points for discussion

(See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Eyrian)

For section Thermal lance#Appearances in fiction, see:

There seem to be these topics here:

[edit] Is it trivia or cruft?

  • Trivialness and cruftyness and WP:NN-ness are often relative. If User:X has less interest than others in topic Y, then he is likely to treat detail related to Y as trivia or cruft. e.g. to me football is boring, and most football matter is footballcruft; but I do not go about deleting bulks of matter out of football-related articles, because that I know that such matter is important to people to follow football. This difference of view has happened with Pokémon-related articles: some call it Pokécruft, some treat it as notable. A few years ago there was a notability / speedy-delete controversy followed by a long discussion, about articles about schools; I was not part of that matter. Likewise with matter about fictional weapons in science fiction. This tabulated list about rayguns seems to me to be as good a way as any to give a general view of how science-fiction treats the idea of hand-held energy weapons. (I do not "covet" these lists: I merely consider them to be relevant, and I am not a fan of "best essay style" for its own sake.) Anthony Appleyard 05:29, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Two other current cases of controversy between "this is listcruft" and "this is useful information" are Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Deaths in Harry Potter and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of deaths in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. Anthony Appleyard 11:29, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is it referenced?

  • Surely, a statement that item X (a raygun or a thermal lance or whatever) occurs in movie or book or videogame Z, is its own reference?: to check truth of the statement, read the book, or watch the movie, or play the videogame (or read the introduction that comes with the game), or talk to someone who has, as User:ArnoldReinhold ("agr") says in Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/Thermal lance#Sources. Anthony Appleyard 05:29, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
    • It doesn't suffice to reference its importance. The question here is relevance. What make these things relevant? It's important to have secondary source to reference that importance. --Eyrian 14:30, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
      • It is relevant to any people studying science fiction who want a general picture of rayguns including plenty of examples. Anthony Appleyard 14:51, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
        • You've conflated personal relevance with article relevance. All sorts of things can be personally relevant (i.e. useful, which has nothing to do with encyclopedic), without being relevant to the subject. This article needs to be an encyclopedic discussion, with secondary-source analysis of how Rayguns have been portrayed in fiction. A trivia list doesn't help that. --Eyrian 15:00, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
          • Here I preferred to list the fictional uses of rayguns plain as they are and let each reader analyse them for himself. Anthony Appleyard 08:35, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] In the body of the article

  • What is the "body of the article"? A Wikipedia article does not have a physically semi-separate appendix tacked on the end like a printed book. The term "not in the body of the article" seems to be usually applied to one of various sections merely because its section heading is "==Trivia==". Miscellanea sections DO arise in some articles, when having each topic in its own section would create too many very short sections; a habit of going around routinely deleting miscellanea sections often causes loss of relevant information. Anthony Appleyard 05:29, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
    • The body of the article is the useful (though still, tragically, uncited) portions that remain in the good version. There is no relevant information here. --Eyrian 14:30, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
      • It is relevant to any people studying science fiction who want a general picture of rayguns including plenty of examples. Anthony Appleyard 14:51, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
        • Same tired "But it's useful!" (WP:ATA) argument as above. See my reply there. --Eyrian 15:00, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Original research?

  • I gathered all or most of the raygun matter from other Wikipedia articles, not from outside. In it I do not (as far as I know) act on the line "I know A; I know B; therefore C can be proved", but I copied directly from the various other Wikipedia articles. To follow the references, follow the blue-links to the other Wikipedia articles pointed to. Raygun#Rayguns in fiction has also been edited by other people. Anthony Appleyard 05:29, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
  • As regards thermic lances, all that matter about fictional uses was edited in by other people, not by me. Anthony Appleyard 05:29, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
    • People ape these lists because they see them already existing. When they're gone, the desire to add to them dries up considerably. Wikipedia cannot be used as a reference. The "blue references" you indicate very rarely have any kind of raygun assertion, and if they do, it's rarely cited.--Eyrian 14:30, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
      • If Wikipedia cannot be used to refer to or as a source of information, what CAN it be used for? Anthony Appleyard 14:51, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
      • Re complaining about lists accumulating, is Wikipedia short of storage space? Anthony Appleyard 14:51, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
        • It's not a matter of storage space, it's a matter of overwhelming readers with worthless, context-free data. --Eyrian 15:00, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Outside view

To be honest, the OR and RS problems are not major; only interpretation needs a source, or non-obvious instances. Saying "there is a raygun used in Episode 9 of Futurama" does not need a source; it's a simply, uncontroversial statement of fact. However, it's still trivia -- and the guideline in question is WP:TRIVIA. The key here is that the material should be integrated into the body of the article -- i.e. write an article about it; not a list and not a table. A list of examples is not encyclopedic -- there is no context for discussion, or interpretation. A list, or table, of examples can, and could, be replaced by "rayguns have appeared in many different media"; the two add the same merit to the article. What should be written is a section explaining why certain examples are important, or how they add to the understanding of rayguns, and their role in culture. Don't just list them -- write an article using them; for instance, if you wanted to emphasize that they have been widely used, mention a few examples across different media. If you want to explain that they play a certain role, cite a source, and use an example to illustrate the point. A table is not the way to go here. --Haemo 07:38, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

  • As regards "list or table or text?", text is not always the best. For example, in histories I have seen cases where a clear history timeline in list form has been edited into a long meandering "best essay style" with all the artifices of elegant variation and "varying the expression" etc, making it difficult to search through the text for any one desired bit of information. Anthony Appleyard 08:24, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
And Haemo's first paragraph brings us back to "What is the body of the article?": see above. Currently the table is one section among various sections in article Raygun, which seems to me to be quite like being part of the body of the article. Anthony Appleyard 08:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
  • This isn't a matter of text vs. list, it's a matter of cited analysis versus worthless trivia. The list is the latter. If you pulled out the bullet points, it'd still be trivia. These indiscriminate lists simply don't belong. It needs to be erased, and replaced with actual research regarding cultural appearances. --Eyrian 14:31, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
  • This comes back to whether it is trivia or not: often one man's trivia is another man's important information, as described at #Is it trivia or cruft?. It is relevant to any people studying science fiction who want a general picture of rayguns including plenty of examples.Anthony Appleyard 14:55, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
  • A list of loosely connected mentions with no context is pretty much the definition of trivia. Trivia is facts which may, by themselves, be interesting to certain people but provide no meaningful understanding of the topic. This fits that to a tee. Seriously, if you want to write about "rayguns in fiction" then write about rayguns in fiction, don't just make a great big-honking table or list of them. Explain to the reader why these examples are important, and give some context. If you can't, delete them. --Haemo 21:56, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Event on 26 July 2007

  • Indeed, the list was too long, and overshadowed the rest of the article. Now it can be considered on its own merits. Even if it's not deleted, it should be in a separate article. --Eyrian 15:37, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] AfD now closed

I have closed Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rayguns in fiction and redirected the article here. Note that I realized after the fact that the nomination was a bit pointy and I now realize that this is really an editorial dispute. It should be treated accordingly which, I suppose, is what this closure does. Pascal.Tesson 16:11, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Whole article about that

Did you see the thing at the top of the article that says: This article is about fictional devices. See Directed-energy weapon for various real weapons which are similar to rayguns. That's where the "whole article about that" is. Totnesmartin 23:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)