Talk:Ravi Zacharias

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Good article Ravi Zacharias has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
March 24, 2008 Good article nominee Listed
Archive
Archives
1

Contents

[edit] Citations

We have accumulated a lot of great citations on this discussion page. It would be great to incorporate these into the article, and think about creating some subheadings to organize things a bit better. We're off to a great start, so let's keep going. Kristamaranatha (talk) 21:42, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Kristamaranatha - I made changes to the citation for the National Day of Prayer Task Force. Despite the heading on their website, I think it's misleading to characterize this "appointment" in a way that might be construed as having been bestowed in some official way by the U.S. government. The task force is a privately funded organization created by the National Prayer Committee, not by the U.S. government. Also, with regard to subheadings, I would be in favor of creating those, but not one for "Criticism". Instead, I think criticism should be worked into the natural flow of the article. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find any good sources. For instance, I'm sure that Zacharias had to come under heavy criticism from Evangelicals for speaking at the Mormon Tabernacle, but I can't find a source saying that. HokieRNB (talk) 16:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
There is a link on the bottom of the page to the Hindu American Foundation's response to something Ravi had said (a criticism). I know there was criticism about speaking at the Mormon temple, namely that he didn't directly point out everything wrong with Mormonism but only pointed to a proper understanding of Christ as the way the truth and the life, so that would be something to keep looking for. Also, is it noteworthy that infidels.org has all sorts of criticisms on him? Just do a search and you'll find all sorts of essays, including criticisms of some of his books and Paul Copan's response to one of these. These could be worked into a heading titled "Ministry" or something like that. Thanks for fixing the NDPTF reference. Kristamaranatha (talk) 16:30, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I think the criticism from the Hindu American Foundation should be worked into the text of the article, rather than being buried in the external links. I did find at least one source for criticism from Evangelicals. I also think that some of the criticism from Bud Press of the Christian Research Service (along with his follow-up questions), Steve Muse of the Eastern Regional Watch, and Rauni Higley, a former Mormon could be used to provide some balance. These are all nicely summarized here. However, we should make sure that we don't place WP:UNDUE weight on this one talk in his long and fruitful ministry. ("An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject.") HokieRNB (talk) 13:30, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Filling in the gaps

I noticed that someone nominated this article as a Good article. Great job everyone! Just wanted to neaten things up a bit before it gets reviewed. We really need to fill in the gaps between Ravi's ministry beginning in the 70's until the present time. This decade has been well covered, but everything in between needs to be discussed. Kristamaranatha (talk) 18:06, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

The article needs to be filled out a bit more, I think there's good information, but it just seems a bit dry. --Kraftlos (talk) 07:11, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Do you think it would be appropriate to do a bullet-list of ministry highlights in chronological order as a starting point? Kristamaranatha (talk 02:43, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
A bullet-list would be appropriate for this talk page, but should probably not be included in the article, for fear of turning into WP:PROSELINE. HokieRNB (talk) 13:38, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Y Done Zacharias was one of the keynote speakers at Urbana 93.[1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ἀλήθεια (talk • contribs) 15:59, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Dave Currie completed his Masters thesis at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in 1998 on "The Apologetic Method of Ravi Zacharias: A Critical Appraisal And Evaluation". If someone could get access to this document, it could probably prove valuable in providing more depth of insight into the section on "Thought". Right now it seems kind of weak. HokieRNB (talk) 15:01, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow that dissertation would be really interesting to read. I found it at http://www.tren.com/search.cfm?oid=txRb4Lmzlq9jPuL4jun1VFJhtMJuTV4UcUxftphtiCXbVJcIDZ8w99MNTlXkn5I5&action=query&title=Zacharias Unfortunately you have to pay for it. I have not found it anywhere else on the internet. Kristamaranatha (talk) 20:57, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Good article nomination on hold

This article's Good Article promotion has been put on hold. During review, some issues were discovered that can be resolved without a major re-write. This is how the article, as of March 15, 2008, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: Pass
2. Factually accurate?: Pass
3. Broad in coverage?: To be addressed
4. Neutral point of view?: To be addressed
5. Article stability? Pass
6. Images?: Pass


I see no reason why, with a little more effort, this article shouldn't meet the required criteria.

  1. The article is reasonably well-written, with no obvious problems in grammar or unpleasant stylistic tics.
  2. The prose corresponds to the sources cited, and it doesn't seem to be subject to edit-wars now that the concerns over notability have been addressed.
  3. The image used isn't of the best imaginable resolution, but is released under the GFDL.
  4. The sources are largely of the quality expected given the source of this individual's notability.
  5. Evangelists and apologists of Zacharias' prominence attract criticism, from both within and without the evangelical community. There isn't any in the article.
  • I note there's an external link to a letter from the Hindu American Foundation; I don't think that that's mainstream enough to be incorporated into the article, as suggested further up on this page. (I note by looking at the article page history that I, at some point in the past, actually removed it as an unsuitable external link! I was cleaning up a lot of ELs at the time, so I don't remember this particular case.) However, the mainstream Indian papers might be worth looking at for suitable op-eds that discuss his ministry, as a prominent convert is newsworthy there.
  • His decision to speak at the LDS pulpit was not without its detractors. A mention should be made of this. Here's one suitable source.
  • There was a small kerfuffle over his general editorship of Kingdom of the Cults. Here's a suitable source for that.
  1. Finally, the article needs to be expanded a little. It isn't quite thorough enough. The sections that cover the places that he has spoken are sufficient, and the list of his books is complete; however, there is only a line about the major arguments he makes. For someone who is a notable apologist, that isn't enough; a paragraph on his style and technique of apologetics sourced to secondary sources is essential.

I'm placing the review on hold for these simple changes to be made.

Please address these matters soon and then leave a note here showing how they have been resolved. After 48 hours the article should be reviewed again. If these issues are not addressed within 7 days, the article may be failed without further notice. Thank you for your work so far. Relata refero (talk) 19:31, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I really appreciate you looking at this article and giving us some pointers on what still needs to be addressed. I'll be working on the article in the areas you have suggested over the next couple days. Thanks again! Kristamaranatha (talk) 03:33, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I edited the article per your suggestions. We're reading for another look. Thanks! Kristamaranatha (talk) 22:39, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
per Wikipedia:Criticism, making separate sections with the title "Criticism" is discouraged. It should be edited into the flow of the article. HokieRNB (talk) 23:13, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Done. Moved criticism to Ministry section after the first mention of the Mormon Tabernacle event. Put Virginia Tech paragraph after that. Kristamaranatha (talk) 23:25, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) Although I wasn't explicitly looking for a source, I was looking for some specifics on who in the Evangelical community was critical of the decision, or at the very least a better idea of how many is "many". Is Bud Press, Director of the Christian Research Service considered a reliable source? Does he speak on behalf of "many Evangelicals"? Just checking. HokieRNB (talk) 01:50, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure how good of a source Bud Press is (i.e. how mainstream), seeing as he has never been answered by Ravi even after repeatedly sending letters. But he does present an example of criticism for Ravi's appearance at the Mormon Tabernacle. I had put up a source by David Cloud ( http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/evang-mormons-together.html ), who also seemed to present the arguments that Ravi answered in his response to his critics. It would be good to find a source of someone more well-known, but that was what I was able to find. I think the fact that Ravi had to publish a response (and a good lengthed one at that) shows that critics are out there - we just need to find them. Kristamaranatha (talk) 02:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Edit: I've found at least one source that references Dr. David Cloud's remarks (http://home.hiwaay.net/~contendr/2-2005.html). I think it would be safe to use him as a reliable reference of criticism for Ravi's appearance. Kristamaranatha (talk) 02:44, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
All of the sources seem to point to fundamentalists who are criticizing the decision. While they represent one part of the spectrum of evangelicals, I think we should either keep looking for something a little more mainstream or qualify the statement by saying "Some fundamentalist evangelicals criticized..." HokieRNB (talk) 04:40, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm hesitant to generalize all the objectors as fundamentalists - because we don't have any evidence that it was isolated to fundamentalists. Maybe we should word it simply "some" or "some Christians"? Or maybe just leave it as is - "evangelicals" is a good generalization of those who objected. Kristamaranatha (talk) 21:57, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I was part of the notability debate for this article about 2 months ago, I like how the article is shaping up, but yea, it does seem a little premature to be considering it a good article. --Kraftlos (talk) 08:50, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
The good article nomination sure surprised me. I don't know the person who nominated it. But we received some good pointers, so now it looks like it meets the criteria. We'll see when someone else comes and takes a look. Thanks for your help in fending off the proposed deletion, your encouragement and your ongoing input to help improve the article. Kristamaranatha (talk) 01:51, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
  • I'm satisfied with the changes, and am promoting the article. Its not the longest GA imaginable, but I believe that given the constraints of sourcing, it covers its subject adequately, fairly and well. Relata refero (talk) 12:26, 24 March 2008

(UTC)

Looks like it got rated as a good article! ^_^ --Kraftlos (talk) 05:59, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A Philosopher?

I recently removed "Philosopher" from the list of Zacharias' occupations for the simple reason that the man is not one. From what I can see (after careful examination) Zacharias has no formal education in the subject, nor has he ever published a substantial work concerning any serious philosophical discipline. With regards to the comment that he deals with existential philosophical questions, I concede that he does, but then, so does Yancey, arguably in equal depth. Zacharias is, at best, a lay-philosopher and an accomplished theologian - no matter how much we appreciate his works (which i most certainly do), describing him otherwise would be lowering a bar that has fallen far enough in recent years. Dewey56 (talk) 20:34, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the change. I agree that "philosopher" was a bit of a vanity title. HokieRNB (talk) 20:45, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Ravi did study philosophy (see http://www.christianbook.com/html/authors/2761.html). Other sources also refer to him as a philosopher, for example http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/storypage.aspx?StoryId=69525 . He does speak a lot about philosophical issues such as meaning. I think the title is justified. Kristamaranatha (talk) 23:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Agreed, he does speak a lot about philosophical issues, such as meaning. However, this qualifies him as a populariser of philosophical views, and little more. He has made precious few novel contributions to the field; as you said, most of his philosophically inclined matter concerns meaning - and the vast majority of his work on meaning is adapted from the works of Lewis and Schaeffer, albeit advocated from the basis of a refreshingly coherent structural apparatus. I guess the crux of the matter resides within our definition of "philosopher": whether he is someone who has made a significant contribution to the field, or someone who simply knows philosophy. Considering that readers will be inclined to assume that he is one of the former if the title is included as a vocation of his, i feel we should omit it from the article.(In addition, the source regarding his education in philosophy seems questionable to my mind. It constitutes an off-hand reference, the sort of comment that is made without out thorough investigation of possible evidential support. Corroborative evidence would be of use.)

Dewey56 (talk) 20:47, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Criticism of Evolution

A couple of nights back I added a section on Zacharias' criticism of evolution as violating the second law of thermodynamics. I didn't include a rebuttal of this in the article, but i'd like to point out that the second law of thermodynamics only applies to closed systems (of which the human body - or any living body, for that matter - is not one, due to natural consumption and excretion). Thus evolution does in no way contradict the second law. Surely Zacharias has noticed this,it is such a basic mistake. Am I alone in suspecting foul play? As much as i value his work, I can't help reaching the conclusion that he is being hopelessly disingenuous. Does anyone have anything to say on the matter? I would be glad to have the issue cleared up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dewey56 (talk • contribs) 20:58, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

The reference provided out of his book The Real Face of Atheism lays out what he views as a contradiction between the different scientific disciplines (which is the topic of the chapter). It is not foul play according to Wikipedia's standards to simply lay out a person's position. Besides that, this article is not the place to discuss differences in our views of the theory of evolution and thermodynamics and all that. Kristamaranatha (talk) 00:08, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] References - Need Help

I'm trying to figure out that name reference thing, and I seem to be just messing it up. I added a bunch of material about Ravi's ministry, which came mostly from his autobiography. Could someone give me a hand? Thanks! Kristamaranatha (talk) 21:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Y Done Never mind. Got it Kristamaranatha (talk) 21:38, 15 April 2008 (UTC)