Talk:Rape culture
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==rape culture==
Rape culture doesn't really make any sense. It seems contradictory throughout the whole thing. Also, the first link given is a page reeking of misandry, a problem regardless of who the site is run by. Dreamer.redeemer 08:44, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] possible simplification, generalizationPardon if my formatting is wrong here, as I am new. This appears to be relatively rare rhetoric most often used by feminists and also relates to the "rape crisis movement". The idea is that society integrates concepts of dominance with sexualized violence such that rape becomes an increasingly common risk of participation in the society. This is primarily seen as men expressing masculine dominance over women with physical penetration, but also applies to events of male-male rape in public and in prisons. Serious analysis of the pervasiveness of rape is made difficult by inconsistent reporting. One notable aspect of this theory is possible explanation of rapists justifying their actions and male-male rapists considering their actions as dominant rather than homosexual in nature. There is a recently released book that puts many of these ideas together. This does seem to be an anchor concept for some feminists and anti-rape crusaders, so it seems to make sense to have a page describing the idea. The book I refer to is: _Transforming a Rape Culture_ by Emilie Buchwald, Pamela R. Fletcher, Martha Roth (Editor) M0llusk 02:00, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
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I don't understand why delegating this page to the clean-up task force is justified. The first complaint, that the page "doesn't really make any sense" is too vague - what specifically makes no sense - and at worst calls for the application of template:technical. Examples of it being "contradictory throughout the whole thing" would also be appreciated. Finally, regarding the link, 1) I disagree that it "reeks of misandry" unless one subscribes to the POV that any feminist social analysis, particularly a radical feminist one, is inherently misandrist, and 2) Even if it is, this is enough of a primary source that it is no more unacceptable than having the Huey P. Newton article link to an interview in which he states "The white mother country radical is the off-spring of the children of the beast that has plundered the world exploiting all people, concentrating on the people of color," which is to say not at all unacceptable. The Literate Engineer 21:19, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Too gender specific?
Rape culture is a type of violent culture used for control, but this is not necessarily limited to any specific type of rape. Rape of males by other males (Rape#Rape_of_males_by_males) is an important example of use of rape as an instrument of violent control not necessarily connected to sexual impulses. This page should ideally have the same level of detached generality as the page on Rape -- M0llusk 09:06, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Good point. I'm going to have to do some checking on how the theory addresses forms of rape other than heterosexual accquaintance rape. I think the theory itself stresses that more than other types, but I do have a focus of my own that very well could have impacted my original write-up, which hasn't been substantially changed. The Literate Engineer 17:14, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
"Violence against women" is a term of art in the movement. 62.254.164.116 19:24, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- M0llusk, you're making the same argument that bell hooks is making in the article, that it clouds the larger issue of culturally induced violence, sexual or otherwise. As it stands, rape culture is a concept used to explain sexist violence against women, and you can't modify the theory and be encyclopedic at the same time.Bobanny 18:23, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
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- True I not only found that this article failed to discuss the instances of when males are victims of rape or sexual assult by other males. But there are some, albeit rare instances of males abused by females. This often happens when victims are young and the female transgressor will take advantage of him.
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- I once even heard of German soldiers who were abducted in Russian villages in World War II and forced to have intercourse with Russian women. The reason for this bizarre behavior seems to have been due to the fact that young males were taken from these villages to serve in the army or work in war industries. The Germans also depopulated the villages by forceably recruiting males as laborers. The result was that young females were without male partners. Men were also sought out to impregnate the women of these villages.
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- I heard this story from a researcher who interviewed the old folk in several Russian villages and he said it was very common. Piercetp 20:39, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] rape and representation
I edited an article on rape and representation which was deemed original research - I've attempt to encylopedia-ise it, but feel that this area is not sufficiently discussed within the general rape entry and perhaps it could find a place in the rape culture entry? Although I think it is a separate topic. Any additional thoughts, amendments, links to other films welcome.Croftscv 20:46, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- This turned out to be a {{context}} problem. See Rape and Representation. Because the article didn't say it was a book, and because the formatting didn't imply it was a book, the article about the book looked like an essay. Appropriate cleanup tags have been placed. --John Nagle 22:24, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Example
This needs expansion: for instance, sexist jokes may be told to foster disrespect for women and an accompanying disregard for their well-being, which ultimately make their rape and abuse seem acceptable. Because this is a sensitive issue, I think sexist should be well defined, and how it is assumed the jokes make rape and abuse seem acceptable should be explained. Otherwise, it is too vague and leaves too much room for readers to integrate it with their preconceptions. Other examples should be provided to elucidate the theory (to the general reader).
In addition, because the theory apparently draws a connection between sexism and rape, I think this connection should be explained, within the theory.
Overall, I cannot make sense of this article because such a monstrous culture seems too gross for any cultural group, except prisoners and the most sadistic pornographers. Rintrah 06:47, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- This is, after all, a stub, so the whole thing needs expansion. I don't know where you're writing from, Rintrah, but in the North American culture I live in, rape and other forms of sexual violence towards women is quite common, and yes, it is gross and monstrous. And I don't think sadistic pornographers have too much trouble finding audiences for their work. The point of it being a "culture" is not that it is limited to some clearly defined subgroup within society, as a minority language might be for example, but that it is "in the air" so to speak. A sexist joke does not in itself cause rape to occur, but is part of a larger cultural fabric that makes sexist violence relatively normal. That's my understanding of what the theory is trying to explain anyway. But yeah, you're right. What's there now spends a lot of time describing rape culture and how it affects men and homophobia, and criticisms of the theory, but devotes barely any space to describing the theory (which is precisely a theory of how sexism and sexual violence are connected).Bobanny 09:45, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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- I am writing from Australia. I know rape occurs in some quarters, but have never directly heard of it occuring — that is, from someone in person. Rape is extremely taboo here. Only hardened criminals and obscure, minority social groups would pretend at it being acceptable — at least, as far as I know. Elsewhere it is condemned more vehemently than murder. Is there something significantly different about our countries, or is it posited to be "in the air" here too, so to speak? In the communities I have lived in, sexist violence has never been relatively normal, so the idea again is alien to me. To my knowledge, only in prostitution rings and vicious drug circles is the practice condoned. From what I have read, very few convicted pedophiles are not ashamed of their crimes. The theory is counterintuitive — at least to me —, so it does need the expansion you mentioned. Rintrah 10:16, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- I'm in Canada, and few countries have as many similarities as ours, so far as I can tell. According to this [1], an estimated 19% of Australian women between 18 and 24 experience sexual assault, which is pretty huge and the numbers are likely similar here. Perpetrators are typically males known to their victims, usually intimately. Rape isn't condoned in our respective cultures, and I doubt rapists publicize or openly boast about their raping. Prison culture likewise doesn't condone rape; rapists are called "skinhounds" in Canadian jails and are often targeted for violence by other inmates. In this cultural context, the high statistics seem alien, but it's not some bizarre fringe group who's doing the raping, hence the need for explanatory concepts such as "rape culture." In rape culture, or "rape-supporting culture," the myth is that sexual predators are hideous monsters hiding behind bushes or in dark alleys, when the reality is statistically something quite different. Female victims often minimize these assaults (if there was no penetration, can it be called rape? how about if there was no orgasm? was she being slutty in some way that brought on the assault? can it be considered rape if it's a boyfriend or husband? [it was less than 25 years ago that husbands were legally allowed to rape their wives], and so on). And frequently women simply don't report sexual assaults because they feel embarassed, ashamed, or fear they won't be believed or that no justice will be had anyway, which is all too often well-founded in reality. So it's not surprising that you find this concept counter-intuitive, even though the odds are that you do do know rape victim(s). It's also not surprising that discussions like this, as the article and talk page reflect, get hijacked by those wishing to dwell on victimization of men or how sexism and violence against women adversely affect men. In any case, all this is to say that I agree this article very much needs expanding, and I realize it does come from the more provocative corners of feminism. Bobanny 20:22, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- I think you're right, Canada has more in common with Australia than any other country. (By the way, I think Canadians are very friendly and get on very well with them.) I generally trust the statistics of government departments; as a result, I find that estimate extremely disturbing — 19% is far too high for any sane country. I think what you are saying is acceptance is more abstract than simple approval. I agree with you, fringe groups are not the main perpetrators of rape, and the rapist stereotype is naïve. In my community, the distinction between what is and is not rape seems quite clear; but, again, I have little exposure to rape issues, so I cannot say this definitively. I can understand why women often do not report it, and agree this probably largely accounts for its general obscurity, although rape cases receive vigorous media attention here. You are probably right, I probably have known a victim; I think I should rather not want to hear about those cases in person. I do admit my suprise at a connection between prejudice and rape, because the latter disgusts me far more. I have had little exposure to the issue, as you have pointed out, and it is difficult to understand a phenomenon which first provokes disgust. In addition, my general skepticism prevents me from accepting any far-reaching theory unless it explained and demonstrated adequately. I might come back to this article later when it has been expanded. Rintrah 06:43, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
- I'm in Canada, and few countries have as many similarities as ours, so far as I can tell. According to this [1], an estimated 19% of Australian women between 18 and 24 experience sexual assault, which is pretty huge and the numbers are likely similar here. Perpetrators are typically males known to their victims, usually intimately. Rape isn't condoned in our respective cultures, and I doubt rapists publicize or openly boast about their raping. Prison culture likewise doesn't condone rape; rapists are called "skinhounds" in Canadian jails and are often targeted for violence by other inmates. In this cultural context, the high statistics seem alien, but it's not some bizarre fringe group who's doing the raping, hence the need for explanatory concepts such as "rape culture." In rape culture, or "rape-supporting culture," the myth is that sexual predators are hideous monsters hiding behind bushes or in dark alleys, when the reality is statistically something quite different. Female victims often minimize these assaults (if there was no penetration, can it be called rape? how about if there was no orgasm? was she being slutty in some way that brought on the assault? can it be considered rape if it's a boyfriend or husband? [it was less than 25 years ago that husbands were legally allowed to rape their wives], and so on). And frequently women simply don't report sexual assaults because they feel embarassed, ashamed, or fear they won't be believed or that no justice will be had anyway, which is all too often well-founded in reality. So it's not surprising that you find this concept counter-intuitive, even though the odds are that you do do know rape victim(s). It's also not surprising that discussions like this, as the article and talk page reflect, get hijacked by those wishing to dwell on victimization of men or how sexism and violence against women adversely affect men. In any case, all this is to say that I agree this article very much needs expanding, and I realize it does come from the more provocative corners of feminism. Bobanny 20:22, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- I am writing from Australia. I know rape occurs in some quarters, but have never directly heard of it occuring — that is, from someone in person. Rape is extremely taboo here. Only hardened criminals and obscure, minority social groups would pretend at it being acceptable — at least, as far as I know. Elsewhere it is condemned more vehemently than murder. Is there something significantly different about our countries, or is it posited to be "in the air" here too, so to speak? In the communities I have lived in, sexist violence has never been relatively normal, so the idea again is alien to me. To my knowledge, only in prostitution rings and vicious drug circles is the practice condoned. From what I have read, very few convicted pedophiles are not ashamed of their crimes. The theory is counterintuitive — at least to me —, so it does need the expansion you mentioned. Rintrah 10:16, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- Just so's yall know, I've posted a request for expansion in a relevant WP:CSBOT section, specifying that this needs to be addressed. That should generate a response before too long. The Literate Engineer 15:55, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
