Talk:Ramaz School

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Assessment: Hello all, and thank you for contributing to this school article. I'm part of the Wikipedia:WikiProject_Schools/Assessment team, and I'm reviewing this page. I'm currently giving it a grade of Start on the Wikipedia 1.0 Assessment Scale and an importance of Mid on this importance scale. For information on improving this article, please visit the WikiProject Schools Project Page. My reasoning is as follows: Needs more information and a bit of cleanup. Good start to references. Adam McCormick (talk) 05:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

isn't it a bad day to say things like "currently" when it comes to baskeball scores in realtivly fast paced leauge (rather use "as of...."

[edit] What Wikipedia is not

Guys, I know it's a lot of fun to write all about your school, and have it "published" online immediately. However, not everything that you can think of pertaining to Ramaz is relevant for an encyclopedia. For example, the name of the Junior Vice President of Ramaz (though I'm sure she is a wonderful young woman) is not a piece of information that is considered notable or encyclopedic for Wikipedia purposes. It would help to read the article on "What Wikipedia is not" to understand this concept better.

I fixed up the article somewhat, but it still needs to be cleaned up somewhat. Good luck! --DLand^TALK 01:07, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

And by the way, as much as you all must love Noa Netanyahu, her father is notable; she is not. --DLand^TALK 01:53, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, DLand, but I must object. I, as many others have, have come to the conclusion that the main reader base for the Wikipedia Ramaz page are people who want to know about the school, and most of the readers actually come from the school, and want to know about the teams. Perhaps we can make two separate pages, one with encyclopedic information and one with information about teams, etc. Tell me what you think -WIZARD826

I understand your concern, Wizard. However, you fail to recognize the most basic policy of Wikipedia: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Wikipedia is most certainly not an indiscriminate collection of information regardless of what the "main reader base" wants to see on a page. If you like, you can make your own personal website dedicated to the Ramaz sports teams, but unfortunately, until your teams reach encyclopedia-level notability, Wikipedia is not the proper forum for information about them, beyond what is currently included in the article.

Please do not take this as a personal insult. I strongly encourage you to keep on editing Wikipedia and keep participating in adding information to any and every article that interests you. I'm just trying to make sure that things are done properly, according to Wikipedia policy (worth checking out!).

Take care, DLand^TALK 03:16, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the sports teams/intellectual teams season summaries: Why can, for instance, Duke University and the lacrosse team scandal have a "current events" label, but anything remotely current and/or in flux about Ramaz is forbidden?

How can the Duke page say: "They...were eliminated by the LSU Tigers in the 2006 tournament?" Is that too much detail/an indiscriminate repository of information? What about, say, Harvard, whose page has an entire "recent developments section?" Why can colleges have the names of their administration up, while you judge it inadmissable to put up the student leaders of Ramaz? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.118.103.145 (talk • contribs)

First of all, please put new comments at the bottom of the page instead of the top in order to keep the page orderly, and sign all comments on talk pages with ~~~~ - that will automatically fill in your username and the date.

In response to your very legitimate question - this certainly does not have to do with Ramaz being inherently less important than Harvard or Duke. Criteria for inclusion in an article has to do primarily with two factors:

• The type of information

The type of information means, like we already established, that we exclude unencyclopedic "indiscriminate" types of information, such as FAQs, travel guides, memorials, news reports, genealogical entries, phonebook entries, directories, instruction manuals, etc. etc.

• Notability

Notability is a very touchy topic, as you can see if you click on the link. It is very difficult to define what is notable and what is not notable. However, a very wide consensus of editors believe that there is some standard for notability, and something that is not notable enough should not be included. A generally good way of objectifying notability is by using a Google test, where a subject is deemed notable based on the amount of "hits" it gets on Google.

All of the information on the Duke is relatively notable (especially the lacrosse team incident - that's national news!). The same goes for the Harvard page. The same is not true for Ramaz. In fact, just to show you how ludicrous your comparison is, a Google test for your Student Body President "Daniella Rohr" gives 6 results. Compare that to the president of Harvard, Lawrence Summers, who got 441,000 results on Google(!!!) That is the difference between something that is notable and something that is not notable.

I should mention that there is a lot of potential information about Ramaz that could be added to make this a better article, not necessarily having to do with sports. Try thinking down other avenues. Good luck! DLand^TALK 04:45, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

You say that it's not about Ramaz being inherently less important than Harvard or Duke, but isn't that exactly what "notability" means? More people care about Harvard and Duke than Ramaz (hence the web hits), but shouldn't you have the same level of information on each? I mean, "world war two" might return more hits than "boer wars," but does that mean that you would simply drop categories of information from your Boer Wars page? (As you propose to drop categories of information from the Ramaz page because of the relative web mentions of our SBP and Larry Summers). 69.118.103.145 04:22, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Notability is very different than importance. According to Wikipedia, a topic has notability if it is known outside of a narrow interest group or constituency. A good way of measuring this is by a Google test. Importance, on the other hand, has to do with intrinsic value, not how many people know about it. The name of the Ramaz SBP, just as an example, may or may not be important, but it is certainly not notable.

Notability is an important criterion for inclusion of a topic in an encyclopedia. The standards for inclusion on Wikipedia should be just as high as the standards of any professional encyclopedia, and I am trying to ensure that it stays that way.

If you want an example of a very good Wikipedia article about a high school, check out the article on Stuyvesant High School. It is pages long, and got nominated multiple times to be a featured article. You'll notice that their section on sports is only slightly longer than Ramaz's is currently. However, there is a ton of substantive information about other stuff, which makes it such a high-quality article. Use that as a model, and maybe you'll be able to come up with better ideas on how to improve the Ramaz article. Once again, good luck, DLand^TALK 04:46, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bob Ross

Is it true that he went to Ramaz? Please provide sources. --DLand^TALK 16:52, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What makes Ramaz Special?

There are some basic questions unasked and unanswered here that the reader should know in order to fully understand what Ramaz is:

1. What is a "double curriculum"
2. Where does the student body come from
3. What distinguishes Ramaz from other Yeshiva (say) high-schools?
   1. Relationship with higher secular education, etc. "It was explicitly not a 'pre-rabbinical' school"
4. Basic goals
5. compare to MTA & Flatbush
6. changes over time, becoming more "like a yeshiva"
7. Activism especially re Soviet jewry

Vonfraginoff 18:23, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dance an athletic team?

should dance be considered an athletic team, as it currently is? -WIZARD826

[edit] Notable Alumni

Are Drs. Baker and Henkin truly "notable?" If so, please elaborate in their description —The preceding unsigned comment was added by WIZARD826 (talk • contribs) 03:49, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

Also, what's the SF Mission Minyan??? Greatal386 17:39, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Amazins490. Now the question becomes: Is it Relevant? Greatal386 03:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ramaz Alum

[partly copied from User talk:DLand]

Is 'having your own page' a necessity to be listed as notable? Looking at at the page for Stuyvesant alum, lots of people there don't have links... Greatal386 21:12, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Having their own page is not a necessity for listing as notable alumni, but it's a good indication. Just being a professor somewhere does not automatically grant notability, per WP:PROF. Being an entrepreneur/millionaire does not make a person notable either, nor does being the daughter of a notable person. If notability can be established on an individual level for each of those on the list, then they can stay. If not, then they have to go. --DLand^TALK 21:30, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

• Individuals listed as notables who did not have a Wikipedia article AND did not have any sources to demonstrate notability AND did not have any sources demonstrate a connection to Ramaz have been removed. The remaining individuals listed still have a few who need sources to demonstrate a connection to the school. Alansohn 04:33, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

• Note that in all cases of alumni, a sufficient source is an appropriate yearbook. It's just not that hard to prove. Anybody know how to cite a yearbook? -- Vonfraginoff (talk) 10:27, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
• Different Question -- as an alumnus of Ramaz, I have access to a list of all alumni -- but its in a password protected area. Can I cite that? Greatal386 05:43, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

• Reliable sources need to be from an independent third-party. An alumni website would not be independent, nor would it demonstrate any evidence that any fact checking is done before inclusion. Sources should be from independent books, newspapers or magazine articles about the subject. Alansohn 05:58, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Natasha Lyonne as alumnus

Natasha Lyonne is not a Ramaz alum. She did not graduate and should thus be removed from the notable alumni section.

• Alumnus means "former attendee", not just "graduate". Lyonne will be restored. Alansohn 04:52, 28 August 2007 (UTC)