Talk:Ralph Vaughan Williams

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The family tree was done in PowerPoint and I am a bit resistant now to spending more time on it. If you email me I will email back the PowerPoint.Cutler 20:40, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Religious beliefs

Most sources write that RVW was an agnostic, although I gather his 2nd wife claims he was an 'atheist who drifted into a cheerful agnosticism.' Certainly he was not a 'militant' atheist. Anyone got a good source here - in view of RVWs ouput it's important to clear up the point I think. Linuxlad 11:58, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Bertrand Russell in his Autobiography says that as Cambridge RVW was a militant atheist who loudly announced that only fools believed in God.Roger Allen 17:58, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

So he may have been militant at Cambridge and then mellowed later, which would be fairly typical. That's the trouble with saying someone was something or other: One can have been lots of contradictory things. TheScotch (talk) 09:02, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I was wondering when he composed his religious works/as a militant atheist or a mellowed agnostic? I was also wondering what the religious beliefs of his second wife Ursala were. If anyone could help, thanks. 165.123.134.129 (talk) 15:55, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

The only "religious" Vaughan Williams piece I can think of off-hand is Pilgrim's Progress, to which I think Ursula was implicitly alluding. Vaughan Williams does quote the Bible in his seventh symphony score, a late work, if that counts. I don't think Ursula's own beliefs would be germane to this article. TheScotch (talk) 09:00, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, now the article says this: "Despite his substantial involvement in church music, and the religious subject-matter of many of his works, he was described by his second wife as 'an atheist … [who] later drifted into a cheerful agnosticism.'" True or not, it has no citation. I realize that identifying as an atheist or agnostic every historical figure possible is now so firmly one of Wikipedia's raisons d'être as to be beyond reproach, but assertions like this should have citations - if only for appearances' sake. Someone can go through and remove them in three years, when the world's Internet geeks succeed in eradicating all organized religion. Yes, you detect sarcasm.

It's quoted verbatim in the most current New Grove. I supplied a cite. If you have access, it's in section 1, "Early Life and Beliefs." While it may do little to assist in any religion-eradication campaign, it should improve the article. Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 22:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Music for Orchestra

Does this section listing need a slight re-organization? Why is the Fantasia on a Theme of Thomas Tallis of 1910 listed between the Symphony No.3 of 1921 and the Symphony No.4 of 1931-1943? I don't recall, but if it was reworked by RVW in the years between 1921 and 1931, shouldn't its listing then have two dates, or a date range? Otherwise shouldn't it be moved back in the chronological listing to appear between The Wasps of 1909 and Symphony No.2 of 1913?JackME 21:18, 27 April 2006 (UTC) RVW never numbered the Sea, London, Pastoral or Antartica symphonies. I think it was only at Number 8, to avoid confusion with Number 5, that he gave any of them a number.Roger Allen 18:01, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Compositions Missing

I have noticed several compositions missing from the list - notably Norfolk Rhapsody No.1 , Prelude and Fugue In C Minor , The Voice Out of The Whirlwind and Willow-Wood. Is there any reason for this? Also can anyone provide any further information on them so they can be listed? \

--Leowatkins 21:26, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

There are many of RVW's compositions missing. Initially I interpreted this incompleteness and this Wiki entry on RVW to be only a brief overview, but maybe it should be fuller and more complete, and if so then a complete listing of RVW's works would be appropriate. Kennedy's book, the RVW society, some excellent "fan" websites, all could be sources to gather this information to this article. I notice "HODIE" and "THE FIRST NOWELL" are missing to name another two. JackME 13:22, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronounciation of Ralph

I once heard that pronouncing his name "rafe" is actually a North American affectation and is not the way Brits (including his wife) have historically pronounced his name. Anybody else know anything about this? 4.229.36.169 00:49, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid that's not true. I heard his wife refer to him as Rafe; she also confirmed that he eventually got tired of correcting people about that and just insisted on the correct spelling of his name (i.e. Vaughan with 2 A-s), but he definitely pronounced his first name as Rafe. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 12:24, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Ursula Vaughan Williams, in her biography of Vaughan Williams from 1964 ("R.V.W.") states that his name was pronounced "Rafe", and "any other pronunciation used to infuriate him." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.7.39.33 (talk) 04:29, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

So is it an English affectation then ? Or just the Williams ? Should any English person with the name Ralph be pronounced "Rafe" ?? Eregli bob (talk) 09:36, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Well the bloke I know who's Ralph pronouced Rafe is Irish... David Underdown (talk) 16:08, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Latest revision

Yes, he was a conductor and organist (of sorts), BUT...I don't think it's reasonable to call him "influential" in either category. As I understand it his conducting style was rather unorthodox and not terribly efficient but he certainly could get his wishes across. (Fred Gaisberg at EMI thought his conducting was so poor that EMI would only record the 4th Symphony with the composer on the podium--given the quality of that performance this is obviously a very short-sighted view.) As for his skills on the organ bench, when he toured the US in the 1950s he was asked to play the organ at a church service and responded that he hadn't played the organ in fifty years. I believe he played as a young man as a way to be part of the musical life of the period, but he was never trained as an organist.

So I would revert this and will do so unless other compelling views come out here. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 12:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I would agree with you Wspencer11. RVW is surely noted as a composer. Any other abilities he had such as conducting and organ playing are incidental and only serve to dilute the emphasis: RVW is a noted composer. JackME 01:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Re: "I believe he played as a young man as a way to be part of the musical life of the period, but he was never trained as an organist.":

Of course he "trained" as an organist. Don't "believe"; check a biography. TheScotch (talk) 10:45, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] For/After

FOR: a. As regards; concerning: a stickler for neatness. b. Considering the nature or usual character of: was spry for his advanced age. c. In honor of: named for her grandmother.


AFTER: With the same or close to the same name as; in honor or commemoration of: named after her mother.

(emphasis added)JackME 12:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picture?

Any chance of finding a suitable photo or other picture of him? --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 17:11, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I have found one in the commons and have added it; I hope also to have a more typical portrait type photo to add before long. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 19:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I like the one of him with his cat; I wonder if it's copyrighted. Adso de Fimnu 01:37, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] British Isles

I don't want to get into nationalist arguments here (I'll leave that to the actual British Isles page), but this sentence makes no sense to me:

"Simultaneously the music is patriotic of the British Isles"

You can't be patriotic of a purely geographical entity that comprises two separate modern nations (UK and Republic of Ireland). It would be somewhat like being patriotic of North America, or patriotic of the Iberian peninsula. What was the author trying to say here?

I'm pretty sure Vaughan Williams' patriotism was for England, exclusively. Hence pieces such as the "English Folk Song Suite" and "Norfolk Rhapsody No.1". I think it would be potentially confusing to call his style 'patriotic' without stating what that patriotism was for. Surely you agree? --Leowatkins 23:46, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi Leo. Yes, I agree. I'm not familiar with all his work, but all the folk-music arrangements and variations of his that I've heard have been English. On the other hand, an earlier part of the article says: "In essence, however, this is characteristically English (and British) music". Nonetheless, no examples other than English folk music are provided in the article, and the emphasis is firmly on the English character of his work.
I also prefer your construction "patriotic for" rather than the original "patriotic of"
So I'll change the sentence to:
"Simultaneously the music is patriotic for England ..."213.131.238.25Dermot

Yes i quite agree, that's probably the best way to express it. --Leowatkins 12:47, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

It would be helpful in cases like this to point out precisely where in the article the disputed passage resides. Right now it's in the last sentence of the "Style" section. Certainly of is the wrong preposition, but I don't think for is quite right either. I've replaced for with toward. Note please, however, that the entire section is pretty much all POV. It needs to be revised radically. TheScotch (talk) 08:49, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Symphony numbers

RVW himself gave his early symphonies either titles ( A Pastoral Symphony etc) or Key signatures (Symphony in E Minor). It was only with the Symphony No. 9- which shared the key of E minor with what then became the Symphony No. 6- that he numbered any symphony. I don't think he ever authorised giving numbers to the Sea, London or Pastoral Symphonies or the Sinfonia Antartica. I'll check up, but I've been ill, so no guarantee of speed in doing so.

No, the numbering started with the his fifth symphony, which like his Pastoral Symphony (his third symphony) is in D major. His publisher insisted on numbers from that point, and Vaughan Williams was obliging, however reluctantly. TheScotch 11:15, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I beg to differ, emphatically. First, the Pastoral is not in D Major. Never has been, never will be. Second, the numbers did not appear until the Ninth, which is in the same key as the Sixth; the (unsigned) person who added the first comment on this topic is correct. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 21:59, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


Michael Steinberg, The Symphony, 1995, Oxford University Press, page 654 (paperback edition): "The Eighth was the first symphony that Vaughn Williams numbered himself. His first three symphonies went by their names. The next three he called simply Symphony in F minor, Symphony in D major, and Symphony in E minor, but beginning with the D major his publisher intervened and added numbers to the titles [my emphasis]." TheScotch (talk) 04:13, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Here is what the RVW Society have listed on their page:(and they associated with Ursula Wood Vaughan Williams would presumably have a valid opinion)

FOR DISCUSSION REFERENCE ONLY

List of works - Symphonies


1910 A Sea Symphony For soprano, baritone, mixed chorus, and orchestra. Words by Walt Whitman.

Dedication: To R.L.W. [(Sir) Ralph Wedgwood]. Four movements; A Song for All Seas, All Ships; On the Beach at Night, Alone; Scherzo (The Waves) Allegro brillante; The Explorers: Grave e molto adagio.

1913 'A London Symphony' For orchestra.

Dedication: To the memory of George Butterworth. Four movements: Lento-allegro risoluto; Lento; Scherzo (Nocturne) Allegro vivace; Finale: Andante con moto – maestoso alla marcia (quasi lento) – allegro – maestoso alla marcia – Epilogue: Andante sostenuto.

1921 Pastoral Symphony Symphony No 3 For full orchestra, with soprano (or tenor) voice.

Four movements: Molto moderato; Lento moderato; Moderato pesante; Lento.

1931-4 Symphony No.4 in F minor For full orchestra.

Dedication: To Arnold Bax. Four movements: Allegro; Andante moderato; Scherzo: Allegro molto; Finale con Epilogo fugato: Allegro molto.

1938-43 Symphony No.5 in D major For full orchestra.

Dedication: To Jean Sibelius, without permission. Four movements: Preludio: Moderato; Scherzo: Presto; Romanza: Lento; Passacaglia: Moderato.

1946-7 Symphony No.6 in E minor For full orchestra.

Dedication: To Michael Mullinar. Four movements: Allegro; Moderato; Scherzo: Allegro vivace; Epilogue: Moderato.

1949-52 Sinfonia Antartica For full orchestra, soprano soloist, and women's chorus.

Dedication: To Ernest Irving. Five movements; Prelude: Andante maestoso; Scherzo: Moderato – poco animando; Landscape: Lento; Intermezzo: Andante sostenuto; Epilogue: Alla marcia moderato (ma non troppo).

1953-5 Symphony No.8 in D minor For full orchestra.

Dedication: To John Barbirolli. Four movements; Fantasia (Variazioni senza Tema): Moderato – presto – andante sostenuto – allegretto – andante non troppo – allegro vivace – andante sostenuto – Tempo I ma tranquillo; Scherzo alla marcia (per stromenti a fiato): Allegro alla marcia – andante – Tempo I (allegro); Cavatina (per stromenti ad arco): Lento espressivo; Toccata: Moderato maestoso.

1956-7 Symphony No.9 in E minor For full orchestra.

Dedication: To the Royal Philharmonic Society. Four movements: Moderato maestoso – tranquillo – poco animato – andante sostenuto – poco meno mosso – ancora poco animando – poco animato ma pesante – largamente.

ABOVE COPIED/QUOTED FOR DISCUSSION REFERENCE ONLY

I would suggest this as a standardization of referencing RVW's symphonies here at this WIKI article (except I don't understand why 'Pastoral Symphony Symphony No 3' is referenced in that way! Nor why 'A Sea Symphony' is not quoted, but 'A London Symphony' is!)

JackME (talk) 23:50, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: "and they associated with Ursula Wood Vaughan Williams would presumably have a valid opinion:
As I see it, there are three questions that need to be considered: Are the discrepancies here (some of which you note) deliberate? Does "valid" mean these titles represent the wishes of Vaughan Williams himself? Should the wishes of Vaughan Williams himself take precedence over the wishes of his publisher (who made the works known to the world at large)? I don't think it's a bad thing for wikipedia to put numbers in parentheses for those symphonies whose numbers are deemed not part of their titles. (Oddly enough, I just received in the mail yesterday study score versions of Vaughan Williams's fifth and sixth symphonies. I didn't inspect the title pages closely, though.) TheScotch (talk) 06:23, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A small question

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Symphonies_by_Ralph_Vaughan_Williams

I don't have enough practice to know how to deal with things in categories - but the titles/numbers of 1-3 are not consistent - and should the second word in the seventh be upper case or not? Lethe 20:49, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nature of V-W's association with Maurice Ravel

I've discovered a discrepancy between sources about this matter.

I've gone into chapter and verse about it over at Talk:Maurice Ravel#Nature of Ravel's association with Ralph Vaughan Williams, and I welcome contributions.

I suggest the discussion take place exclusively on Ravel's talk page, rather than fragmenting it. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:27, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Style

Re: "If that Englishness in music can be encapsulated in words at all, those words would probably be: ostensibly familiar and commonplace, yet deep and mystical as well as lyrical, melodic, melancholic, and nostalgic yet timeless.":

According to whom?

Re: "Ackroyd quotes Fuller Maitland, who noted that in Vaughan Williams's style 'one is never quite sure whether one is listening to something very old or very new.' ":

This sentence strikes me as rather abrupt. What Ackroyd is this? Peter Ackroyd? Where does he quote "Fuller Maitland"? Who is Fuller Maitland? TheScotch (talk) 09:55, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I thought I'd do a little nosing around to see whether I could scare up a citation for that Ravel quotation. Haven't succeeded yet, but I did find an article by Roger S. Gordon that contains the following:
To quote from Peter Ackroyd's book Albion: The Origins of the English Imagination "If that Englishness in music can be encapsulated in words at all, those words would probably be: ostensibly familiar and commonplace, yet deep and mystical as well as lyrical, melodic, melancholic, and nostalgic yet timeless. Ackroyd also quotes from Fuller Maitland, who said that in Vaughan Williams's style "one is never quite sure whether one is listening to something very old or very new." ([1] Positive Feedback Online Issue 29; the publication is an audio hobbyist's periodical well respected in audiophile circles, and the quotation appears in a review of RVW's film music on Chandos.)
So I guess we have an answer to which Ackroyd and where he quotes Fuller Maitland. As to who Fuller Maitland is, or was, the little bit that I can see in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography without a subscription reads: "Maitland, John Alexander Fuller (1856–1936), music critic." An antiquarian book seller's site gives him as editor of Grove's Dictionary of Music and Musicians and Supplement, 1911-1913 and 1945, in 6 volumes. Otherwise, he appears to be the sort of gent who mainly shows up in those annoying Oxford Journal and Jstor links that uselessly clutter up the Google searches of mere mortals like me.
Of course, you're right that the entry is poorly done, and some of the foregoing should go into it for clarification; I'll give it a shot. It would appear that some discrete cribbing has gone on, but whether some WikiEditor has cribbed Positive Feedback or vice-versa I don't know. Apologies if I've just delivered an elephant (shamelessly mixing metaphors in the process) in response to an ironic rhetorical question. Drhoehl (talk) 02:32, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

No, I intended my questions to be taken at face-value, and I find your answers very helpful. Thanks. TheScotch (talk)

The section is much improved (I just checked it) after the changes you've made too. TheScotch (talk) 03:23, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks! I was pushed for time last night, but I just looked up the Wikipedia article on Grove's and found a bit more precise information about which edition Fuller Maitland edited; I've amended this article accordingly. Drhoehl (talk) 20:01, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:VaughanWilliams2.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 07:17, 15 January 2008 (UTC)