Talk:Rainis

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[edit] Name of Article

All my Rainis books indicate "J. Rainis" as the author, not "Rainis." I believe the article should be renamed at some point to reflect the correct nom de plume.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 18:22, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Better not - Rainis is widely known and uncontroversial name, while there are enough of people who argue that his pseudonym was Rainis, while Jānis was his real name and therefore he shold be called Rainis and Jānis Rainis is a mistake. Also I've read some autobiographical works by Aspazija and she refers to him using only "Rainis", thus he himself also might have used only "Rainis". ---- Xil/talk 16:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
More data, dug out my copy of Latvju Rakstniecība Portrejās published while Rainis was alive, either "Rainis" or "Jānis Pliekšans-Rainis" (which is also how the article about him is titled). So, we can confidently observe contemporary usage. :-)  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 02:04, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikifying

Just making a note, the first cut was adding basic bigraphical information to the stub. Once I go through some of my additional sources and expand the article with:

  • Rainis' philosophy,
  • what draws people to his plays and writings,
  • the identification of his works with/exploitation by the socialist/communist movements, etc.,

then I think it will have enough critical mass to be divided into sections. There's not enough substance to the article yet that one can really learn anything from Rainis other than basic "inventory." —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:08, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe we could instead do a more chronological division:
    • Family background and education
    • Early political activism and writings (incl. 1905)
    • Exile period and development of Rainis's ideas
    • Rainis and the struggle for Latvia's independence (e.g. Daugava used as inspirational propaganda)
    • Mature Rainis in free Latvia (iconic status, political career, hopes for Nobel prize)
    • Mixed legacy of Rainis (nationalist or socialist hero?)
    • Literary and philosophical analysis of Rainis's œuvre
    • Monuments, things etc. commemorating Rainis
    • List of Works and selected translations
— Zalktis 15:47, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Too long section titles and will fragment the article, especialy given that here is not enough information yet, how about:
  • Early life
  • Early career
  • Exile
  • After return to Latvia
  • Legacy (for monuments and current views on him)
  • List of Works
I don't think it is approporiate to extensively analyse his works in encyclopedia, this can be merged into rest of the text ---- Xil...sist! 17:15, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
A rough wikification has been done as per Xil's suggestion. — Zalktis 12:25, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
We should keep Zalktis' sectioning around for when the article matures/grows some more. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 18:54, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures

I found some pictures, however there is a slight problem - most of the Latvian photographers of the time have been quite lively and haven't managed to die until 1937, which means that most of these are copyrighted. Now I think I read somwhere that if a picture has been published before 1923 the pictures can be used and for some of these author is unknown. So does anyone know if we can use these images ? The pictures (from [1]):

BTW I have a different picture of his monument in downtown (taken in early June - trees have leaves, sky is blue and it wasn't raining - the monument itself looks kind of pink /here's a picture of another monument taken on the same day/)---- Xil...sist! 09:04, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I've uploaded other images of the monument to commons - Image:Rainis Monument in Riga Esplanaade 3.jpg, Image:Rainis Monument in Riga Esplanaade 2.jpg and Image:Rainis Monument in Riga Esplanaade 1.jpg----Xil...sist! 21:21, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Additional references

I just wrote to the Latvian Academic Library to ask about reusing one of the pictures of Rainis in their collection for the article. I'm tight for time, but I'll scan the pages on Rainis and Aspazija in "Latvju Rakstniecība Portrejās" so folks have some more material to work with.
  For the simplified section list, we might put his philosophy (personal, as expressed in writing,...) —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 18:47, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Here you go, Rainis in Latvju Rakstniecība Portrejās. I'll leave it up for a while (about 2 MB). —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 20:59, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Ūps! Sorry about the bad link! Should work now! PētersV 17:05, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Few things

There are few things in this article that in my oppinion should be improved, referenced or are incorrect:

  • After completing his studies, he worked at the Vilnius regional court and with Andrejs Stērsts in Jelgava

This should say who is Andrejs Stērsts

  • His dramatic ballad Daugava contained the first explicit demand for Latvian sovereignty — "Land, land, what is that land demanded in our song? / Land, that is a state." Those lines were stricken by the censor when the work was first published in Moscow. After the defeat of Bermondt-Avalov's forces at Rīga in November 1919, the ballad was given a performance at the National Theater to mark the first anniversary of Latvia's proclamation of independence; many soldiers carried this work into battle.

I don't think Rainis was first to come up with idea of independence, I think it was Miķelis Valters (I'm not entirely sure though). All statements here should be referenced because it sounds somewhat heroic (especialy the part about soldiers)

  • During the 1920s, Rainis had been among the candidates considered for a Nobel Prize in Literature.

When I was trying to find out copyright status of pictures linked above I camed accros article in Latvijas Vēstnesis site stating that he was never nominated for the prise (apparently he himself wanted it badly)

  • Rainis' statue at the Esplanāde in Rīga is a gathering-place that highlights the contradictions in how his multi-faceted career and works are interpreted; it is the focal point for the national poetry festival, always held on his birthday, as well as a focus for the left wing, from the Social Democrats to the radical opposition to Latvia's education reform (in part because of Rainis' support for minority schools; he was instrumental to the founding of Belarusian schools in Latvia). Are left wing protests realy related to the monument ? It might very well be because Esplanāde provides large open space in city centre not so far from the government building. Can you bring any reference stating that it is because Rainis supported minorities
  • Daugava and other patriotic works were omitted from editions of Rainis' texts prior to the Third Awakening.

I have a collection of Rainis writings which includes Daugava and was published before the awake

  • ...Agreed we'd need this cited at least. My LPME doesn't omit mentioning Daugava. Personally, given Rainis' stature and the premise that all Soviet states are sovereign, there's nothing about Rainis advocating independence that could not fit into the Soviet story. P.S. Does your edition include the words "striken" originally? —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 00:32, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Also: This should say when he joined Latvian Social Democratic Workers' Party. And there shouldn't be lists of works he authored in each sections - these should be under "Works" or merged into rest of the text----Xil...sist! 20:07, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


Valters, Rolavs, and Proletārietis were the first to demand autonomy within a federation -- but sovereign statehood wasn't explicit in their demands. Rainis himself considered it the first definite demand for sovereignty; I believe that Cielēns did, too (he made a survey of early political demands), but my copy of Cielēns is out on loan...
Re soldiers taking Daugava to the front, see p. 227 of the English version of the Jumava 20th C history: "..."Daugava" was published as a separate work, and the defenders of Latvia took the little pamphlet with them to the front." In the 1953 Ziemeļblāzma edition, Kārlis Dziļleja offers a brief bibliography of previous editions -- part of the 1919 edition was donated to the troops, who carried it in their pockets like a gospel.
Rainis is a hero for LSDSP, and many of their demonstrations have been related to the statue's presence. Ditto with the pro-Russian left -- Pārprastā un nepareizi tulkotā Raiņa laiks vēl nav beidzies – par to liecina krievu prokomunistiski noskaņotie, kas tieši te mēdz sarīkot savus protestus un jampadračus, kas vērsti pret latviešu valodu un, patiesībā, valsti. (1) Skolotājiem, kas pieļauj, ka viņu audzēkņi stāv pie Raiņa ar lozungiem "Latvija - Eiropas kauns", būtu jāliedz mācīt bērnus, jo ar to pašu pedagogi sevi ir diskvalificējuši. (2) "LR neatkarības gadadienā notika PCTVL rīkotā konference" -- Pēc konferences beigām PCTVL Saeimas un Rīgas domes deputāti nolika ziedus pie Raiņa pieminekļa. (3)
The lines quoted were stricken from the first publication by the tsarist authorities; they didn't appear until 1917. The 1953 Ziemeļblāzma edition notes that the entire work was excluded from Rainis' collected works published after the occupation; I'm apparently wrong re it not appearing until the Third Awakening, if you have a Soviet edition in which it appears (out of curiosity -- have you compared the texts?). Imants Ziedonis also mentions the censorship of Daugava: Vienkārši ļaužu domāšanā bija tādas tukšas vietas, no kurām bija izņemti Straumēni, izņemta Raiņa Daugava, izņemti Mūžības skartie. (4)
Personally, given Rainis' stature and the premise that all Soviet states are sovereign, there's nothing about Rainis advocating independence that could not fit into the Soviet story. The work was regularly attacked by everybody from Upīts (in Cīņa Nrs. 288, 1952, he said that it and "Sveika, brīvā Latvija!" were composed under the influence of the "chicken colony of the Latvian bourgeoisie") to Emma Andersone: Raiņa balādes Daugava un dzejoļu krājuma Sveika, brīvā Latvija! iztirzājums E.Andersonei sagādā sevišķas grūtības. Beidzot viņa secina, ka Rainis šajos darbos ir "naīvs", "utopisks" un "pilns pretrunām" (381.lp.), kas esot izskaidrojams ar to, ka Rainis esot bijis slims un buržuaziskā sabiedrība viņu maldinājusi (382.lp.). (5) Tangentially, from Frank Gordon: Likteņa ironija: ja Kremļa ielikteņi okupētajā Latvijā nebūtu piedēvējuši Rainim turpat vai komūnistiskus uzskatus, Esplanādē netiktu uzcelts lieliskais piemineklis šim dižajam Latvietim, Humānistam un Eiropietim. (6) --Pēteris Cedriņš 09:27, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, then the Soviet and LPRS constitutions saying the Latvian SSR was sovereign, was a participant in the Soviet Union of its own free will, and could leave the Union any time it wanted were similarly naive, utopian, and full of contradictions. :-) Good to see you! —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 03:51, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Heh, I can't find exact book, but I think it did. However I found collection of his forewords to his works in another book of this collection, which has thse lines along with note that he thinks it might have been first explict call for independence and that it was censored. This particular book has been published in 1983 that is before awakening (according to google the series were published in 1978-1986), in 1953 Stalin's era had hardly ended - that is different. Izņemts no domāšanas var arī nozīmēt aizmirsts nevis cenzēts --Xil...sist! 13:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)