Talk:Raijin

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Contents

[edit] Disambiguation

I tried to link this to the Japanese Wikipedia entry for Raiden (雷電) but there is no entry. There is a disambig page but none of the entries refer to the mythological God. I find that funny. If I knew more Japanese I would attempt to create one. --Feitclub 14:18, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Navel

Raiju's entry mentions the danger of sleeping on one's back outside in a thunderstorm (there's also a breathing hazard, did anyone ever think of that?) because Raiden will fire arrows to dislodge his pet having slept in someone's navel, but I've also heard of Raiden eating people's navels out in order to recover him. If someone can confirm it, that'd be a neat addition.

I've heard it as well. Those two are a package. I've also heard raiden as raijin, but perhaps i was confusing him with his oft-partner/enemy, fujin ^_^

[edit] Name

日本語で失礼します。日本神話あるいは神道において「雷電(Raiden)」という神はいません。いるのは「雷神(Raijin)」です。「雷電」は神ではなく雷そのもののことです。中国語版の「zh:雷電」も雷そのものの項目です。nnh 02:38, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

(translation)Pardon me for my japanese. In the Japanese mythology or SHINTO there is no god or being named "雷電 (Raiden)". Only "雷神 (Raijin)" is. zh:雷電 in Chinese wikipedia is also an article about "thunder" itself. (translated by Miya)
You missed a sentence between the last two, i.e. 「"雷電" isn't a god, but describes things related to thunderbolts.」 :-) Dekimasu 09:07, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I missed that. Thank you.--Miya 15:15, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Another Photograph

Don't you think this image should be inserted in the article as well?--Omernos 17:08, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

The other image is copyrighted, so, yes, this image is much better. -- Amcaja 00:29, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

http://www.rinnoji.or.jp/]

It is the statue of "RAIJIN" (雷神) guarding the gate "大猷院二天門" of Rinnō-ji (ja:輪王寺, de:Rinnō-ji), Nikko, Japan [1]. 　Rinnō-ji's official web site is [2], [3].--Miya 15:15, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The article's name

Why don't you change the article's name into RAIJIN (the god of thunder)? The japanese word "RAIDEN" （らいでん; 雷電) is no god nor mythorogical being but just a word meaning "thunder and lightening".

The image above is a statue of RAIJIN (らいじん;　雷神) but no Japanese will call it as "RAIDEN". --Miya 04:55, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way "雷" means "thunder", "神" means "god".--Miya 07:51, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

(Additional comment)I searched by Google: Google result of 雷神, Google result of 雷電, Google result of 雷電神社. Indeed there are several shrines named "Raiden-shrine" (雷電神社) in North Kanto, but the gods enshrined there are "Raijins" - literally, 火雷神（ほのいかずちのかみ）・大雷神（おおいかずちのかみ）・別雷神（わけいかずちのかみ） and so on. ex. [4] And people call this kind of shrines "Raiden-Jinja" or rather "Raiden-sama".--Miya 15:15, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed once again. This is definitely correct. Dekimasu 16:09, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was Move to Raijin.

[edit] Requested move

Raiden → Raijin … Rationale: "Raijin" is more common that "Raiden", which is a regional and minor god. If this move proceeds, we need to move the current Raijin page to Raijin (disambiguation) - Tangotango 08:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

*Weak support - if this goes through, the information in the discussion section below should be added to the main page. Many of the uses of the term on the main page deal with the actual Raiden usage rather than the general god of lightning meaning. Dekimasu 09:01, 6 August 2006 (UTC) *Strong support - I've become convinced that the original writer of this article was rather misinformed and references to the name "Raiden" should be removed after the switch, per discussion below and the post in Japanese above. Dekimasu 16:00, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Support - I believe RAIJIN is better as the article's name. RAIDEN-sama may be another name of RAIJIN in Kanto , as well as "KAMINARI-sama" in other regions in Japan.--Miya17:44, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Moved. By the way, this article is begging for the {{crap}} template Ashibaka tock 01:50, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments
  • The Kojien states that Raiden (雷電 raiden?) means "thunder and lightening". The Kojien also explains that Raiden-sama (雷電様 raiden-sama?) (the -sama suffix is a Japanese honorific) is a god in the North Kanto and Shinetsu regions that helps one prevent being struck by lightening. Raijin (雷神 raijin?), on the other hand, is defined simply as a god that causes thunder and lightening, with no geographical limitations. - Tangotango 08:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Spelling should be "lightning" above. Also, strictly speaking, 雷 means "thunderbolt," implying both the lightning and thunder aspects, whereas 電 means "thunder" (the sound only). "Thunder and lightning" is a fine translation of 雷電 because the Japanese word also is emphasizing both aspects of the thunderbolt. Any part of the main page that ends up describing 雷電 should reflect these facts. :-) Dekimasu 09:16, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Wow. I see that during my first week on Wikipedia, I found it necessary to comment on how people spelled "lightning" on talk pages. I apologize to Tangotango on behalf of my previous self. Just closing the discussion now, as the page was moved a long time ago. Dekimasuよ! 18:37, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
One more. The picture included in the article is from Nikko, which is certainly in North Kanto, so the picture should probably continue to be labeled as Raiden. Dekimasu 09:19, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Sorry, but I should say "no". The name of the statue above is NOT "Raiden" but "RAIJIN" (雷神) guarding the gate of Rinnō-ji (ja:輪王寺)'s 大猷院二天門, de:Rinnō-ji), Nikko, Japan. See these links [5], [6],

[7].--Miya 15:15, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

All right... I didn't do enough research. I believe you... but this seems to indicate that something here is wrong. Assuming that the Kojien is correct, I'm not convinced that Raiden and Raijin aren't completely separate deities. 雷電様 yields a very low number of Google hits (2640) from places like Saitama and Utsunomiya, 雷神 over 2.8 million. Thus "Raiden" is very uncommon usage in his its own region and/or he is mostly obsolete. Either way, he the term can't be considered notable compared to Raijin. If this is moved, I now think all of the current references to "Raiden" should be deleted under the assumption that they only refer to "thunder and lightning." Dekimasu 15:58, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Moved from article

<!--Tradition credits Raijin for the failure of the [[Mongol]]s to invade [[Japan]] in [[1274]], as he is said to have created the storm (''[[Kamikaze (typhoon)|kamikaze]]'') that hindered their progress. .....KAMIKAZE is rather a kind of Fujin, for KAZE means "wind".--> - This passage was in the first section; Miya seems to have commented it out. - Tangotango 10:08, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite proposal

Now that the article has been removed, it really needs to be rewritten. A lot of the references seem to be mistaken and/or cruft, and there is still very little discussion of Raijin himself or any observances related to him. The fanboys/girls may not like their references taken out, but this article needs to be more on-topic. Dekimasu 04:50, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] added a link to the mortal kombat character

.~ moe 10:36, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Popular Culture

Anyone notice that tha main her from Metal Gear Solid 2 is named Raiden?

[edit] Decimate the popular culture section

From Wikipedia_talk:Trivia:

That should be required reading for anyone participating in this debate. What's said there about Marduk could apply to just about any other article about a deity or other mythological figure:

  • Osiris: "In the movie Hedwig and the Angry Inch, Hedwig's song "Origin of Love" mentions Osiris";
  • Apollo: "The original classic 1978 Battlestar Galactia series. The main character of the show was called Apollo. Who was an ace Viper pilot (space fighter planes seen throughout the series) and the Captain and strike leader of Galactica's Blue Squadron."
  • Quetzalcoatl: "In the computer game Rise of Legends, there is a playable race called Cuotl. There are also air units in this race's army called 'Quetzals'."
Etc, etc, etc, by way of Kokopelli, Ozymandias, Sigurd, King Arthur... (the list goes on). Adopting the Marduk solution (wiping it all off and depositing it on Marduk in popular culture) as general practice would enable such articles to give a much better impression (seriousness, rigor, perspective) than they do at the moment. Bolivian Unicyclist 12:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
It's a tenable solution. But, then, this is an encyclopedia, not an indiscriminate collection of information. I think editors are perfectly within their rights to delete random trivia factoids on sight. And I'd caution against avoiding "popular culture" sections altogether; these can be nice additions to articles, provided they are well written, academically sound, and analytical rather than exhaustive. I'm currently reading a book on Jeki la Njambè (sadly, we have no article yet), an oral epic of the Duala people of Cameroon, and the author devotes quite a few pages to interpretations in Cameroonian popular culture. So I guess I'm trying to say: If you've got something intelligent to say about Fujin in popular culture, say it. If all you have is the fact that a character in Final Fantasy VIII is named Fujin, keep it to yourself or put it in the Fujin (Final Fantasy character) article. But ghettoizing these sections to X in popular culture is akin to sweeping the dust under the rug. — Amcaja 13:04, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

This article could be informative, but it's being drowned in references that are basically uninformative. The majority of the references do not add to anyone's understanding of the Japanese god, and we should not forget that the fact that a reference is interesting doesn't make it notable or encyclopedic. With this in mind, I am removing many of the trivial trivia items from this article. Dekimasu 07:45, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tenjin

Hm... I was under the impression Tenjin was a deity of scholarhood and learning, and the English article (which seems to more or less follow the Japanese one) confirms this as Tenjin's present "occupation". But he was once apparently indeed a deity of natural disasters, and storms and lightning would probably fit into that category as well. I'm not convinced Tenjin could be described as "another god of thunder" - this would seem to imply that he is today an alternative to Raijin, which I don't think he is. Maybe we could reword that "another god of thunder" part? What do you think? TomorrowTime 19:03, 22 January 2007 (UTC)