Talk:RahXephon/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Note: Please add new material at the bottom of the page. Preceded by the following: =Sections archived on ~~~~~ =

Contents

Sections archived on 09:43, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Added Anime Episodes

Added Anime Episodes. --ibulisa 6:04, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Infinite Ryvius

New sub-section. I watched both series together, and noted these similarities. Are they common in other mecha series? --GunnarRene 23:02, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

The idea of linking a mech and it's pilot (physically, emotionally or otherwise) is fairly common in mech shows. Although not common in traditional mech shows (Gundam, Macross), themes such as this have appeared in other shows. In Vision of Escaflowne, Van (the male protagonist) receives the same wounds as does his mech, the Escaflowne. The Evas in Neon Genesis Evangelion contained the souls of people who were close to the pilot, and so would synch better with the pilot the Eva was designed for. Sakura is much more able to pilot her Koubu in Sakura Wars after learning to trust in it. The whole idea that mechs are more than just machines and have some sort of affinity with their pilots is very common.
Noted. What I noticed was that the bonds in Ryvius and Rah are different to the more close-distance and family-related bonds of NGE. --GunnarRene 15:46, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
On a side note, Neeya in Infinite Ryvius is the avatar for the entire Ryvius ship, not just the Vital Guarder. This is why she feels the minds of everyone on the ship, and not just those involved with the Vital Guarder. - Js2756 02:21, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
You're right. It's been changed. --GunnarRene 15:46, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Added Table

Added table comparing manga and anime. --James26 7:05, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Megumi is love interest?

"Megumi is Ayato's implied romantic interest" In what way is this true? It is most definetly Haruka (Reika takes her form, loved her earlier in his life, more scenes with her and it is who he ends up with). Genjix

Unless no-one else comments I am changing this. Genjix

It's not true. Ayato is Megumi's romantic interest, but not the other way around. Heck, Asahina had more of a chance with Ayato than did Megumi. In all honesty, I'm not particularly fond of that chart at all. For the most part, it highlights cosmetic differences rather than the more important differences in plot and characters, and it doesn't indicate which differences are more significant than others. -Js2756 03:16, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
If you feel the differences you've mentioned are really worth noting you're free to include them yourself.
Ok, I'm changing it. I think that chart would probably be better expressed as a paragraph, but sadly I don't know enough about the manga to make these changes (if no-one else steps up to it, I'll probably go ahead and change it anyway). Genjix
With the inderect kiss, Ayato oogling Megumi and so on, I'd say he had a bit more interest. At least more than she had at that time since she was in love with Souichi. Ayato thought Reika was dead at that time and might have been "re-bounding" as it were. After Megumi found out that Kim and Souichi were together, she fell in love with Ayato, but then Ayato and Haruka were closer. I'm going to re-write it to "competing" rather than interest. I think that might be more informative. --GunnarRene 15:26, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Influences

The first chapter of Genesis written on an egg

On Golems and Genesis, I found this picture of an egg with part of Genesis written on it. Would it be nice to have a fair-use screen capture of the RahXephon's egg with writings on it next to this picture? Perhaps in the same box/table? --GunnarRene 16:17, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

VHS?

Was there ever a VHS release? The sources I have say that ADV only released DVDs.... --GunnarRene 23:44, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Doubt it, since not much is released on VHS at all nowadays. Ryan Salisbury 02:29, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Sections archived on 19:34, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Comparisons with other anime

Raideen the Brave

In which edition of Newtype magazine did the director talk about Raideen? Newtype USA or Japan? --GunnarRene 13:52, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

It was an issue of Newtype USA, though it's certainly possible that the interview was simply a translation of an interview that was in Newtype Japan. -- 24.3.246.204 03:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Neon Genesis Evangelion

"Others contend that the series lacks NGE-director Anno's strong and psychology-filled writing"

Would this "others" also include the "some" that have other negative comparisons? I don't think they are disjunctive sets of people, but not necessarily equal sets either.

Could somebody re-phrase this? --GunnarRene 14:31, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

He's trying to be cool in saying that he thinks most of the people who say this are the same group of people who "have other negative comparisons" (I'm guessing Neon Genesis Evangelion being better), but it's not neccessarily all of those people, or only people from that group.
Above poster if you want to communicate something you have to make it understandable Genjix 11:49, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
I changed it to something that refrains from saying that "most" people see it either as a favourable or unfavourable comparison. The first entry on it was very anti-EVA, and then came anti-RahXephon statements. Without a real study on fan opinion, it is POV or at least subject to an aquaintance-bias to say that the shows are compared "usually favourably" or "usually negatively". --GunnarRene 01:00, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I inserted a comparison to the similarities between Babylon 5 and DS 9. Is it appropriate? --GunnarRene 23:02, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Removed text from 129.128.205.13:

"In particular, the writing of RahXephon is more consistent, with foreshadowing present in the very first episodes which accurately refers to events happening in the very last episodes, suggesting that RahXephon was entirely planned out ahead of time. Evangelion, by contrast, shows highly visible plot inconsistencies, and the producers have admitted to writing the series one episode at a time, especially later on."

Highly POV in my eyes. How about we work this into the paragraph with less absolute language... --GunnarRene 01:47, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

If EVA was written more "one episode at a time", I'd like a source for this claim. --GunnarRene 02:30, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I changed it to this: "This complexity - as well as early foreshadowing of events - suggests that the main points of the story arc were set rather early." --GunnarRene 02:30, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Writing about opinions, redux.

Relevant: WP:V, WP:NPOV (policies) and Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_words (guide).

This article is not a place where anime fans come to a consensus on which is a better series, RahXephon or Neon Genesis Evangelion. Still, I think that fan reception is encyclopedic, if it can be verified in some way.

The process in this section so far has been

  1. RahXephon-favourable edit
  2. Moderate edit trying to work in both views.
  3. RahXephon-negative edit
  4. Moderate edit trying to work in both views.
  5. Goto 1

To show that a sentiment exists in the fan community, we might get away with linking to forum posts, but we have no way of weeding out sock-puppets, fraudulent accounts, etc. The guideline is under debate now, as well: Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources.

There are different ways forward:

  • Keeping opinions, but linking to possibly non-reputable but still fairly reliable publicly available sources that show that opinions exist, e.g. forum discussions, taking care not to over-state their reliability.
  • Not say what people think, and rather list the similarities in a verifiable and neutral way, with balance created by noting that NGE had X, Y, Z similarities with Foo. It might, however, be less informative and interesting for the reader.

What do you think? --GunnarRene 14:47, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Answer to my former self 8)  : Only list similarities noted by actual reviewers. That was easy, right? --GunnarRene 17:58, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Quon and Rei

Quon is a clone. During the last few episodes, Bahbem revealed that two Mu children appeared on Earth (presumably Quon and Maya as they are sisters -- Quon being the older of the two). The dialogue stated that one was allow to live and one was kept in stasis. Quon was "crafted from" the child in stasis. Also Quon is just 17 and Maya is at least in her 30's. Even with the time differential of Tokyo Jupiter, Quon as we see her would have to be born much later than Maya). That would seem to strongly imply that she's a clone, although not directly stated in the series. I believe this should be added back into the entry comparing Quon and Evangelion's Rei. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Navstar (talk • contribs) 14:48, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I thought the stasis had delayed the effect of aging, like for the blue flowers and for those living in Tokyo Jupiter. --GunnarRene 15:20, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Navstar, if you're right, I totally misunderstood the last few episodes. I had thought that Quon and Maya were testing Lord Barbem's RahXephon system in the Mulian world, failed somehow, were blown to Earth along with Barbem, and then Maya was placed into stasis and reawakened only shortly before Operation Overlord, since Ayato was approaching his 17th birthday and she needed an Instrumentalist like Ayato to give RahXephon another shot and try to tune the world back into the Mulian one; some of the various clones and such (and Ayato himself?) having been made with her genetic material in the interim. --maru (talk) contribs 03:20, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
"Maya was placed into stasis and reawakened only shortly before Operation Overlord" you mean Quon. Bähbem got dislocated into our world (he failed as an instrumentalist) and kept himself alive by cloning new host bodies and transferring himself into them. Quon and Maya appeared at the shrine near to our time. My interpretation is that the stasis delayed the effect of aging (compare with the growth of the blue flowers in Itsuki's house) not that there was cloning. The only known clones we see are Bähbem's clones (the teacher, Isshiki, the butler, the Scwarzer pilots), Sayoko Nanamori (IIRC), and of course Itsuki and Ayato who are possibly "natural clones", i.e. identical twins. --GunnarRene 14:54, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Music

Is the music really that similar between Eva and Rah? As the article says right now, the music in "calm" scenes is very different. (Easy listening vs. New-agey jazz). And the music in the battle scenes seems rather different too. I don't see more similarity between Eva and Rah than between Rah and many other anime series. Comments? --GunnarRene 22:57, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I've trimmed it down. I'll contact the user who first noted the musical similarites, because I can't quite understand what (s)he's referring to. I made a separate point about the classical music. --GunnarRene 23:02, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Stranger in Paradise (song) is based on Polovetsian Dances. Which one is used in RahXephon? --GunnarRene 01:51, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

The song actually appears MUCH earlier in the anime (I believe sometime between episodes 4 and 6) in instrumental form in the background of one scene. As far as I can tell, it is the Stranger in Paradise version, not the Polovetsian Dances version. --129.128.205.13 03:57, 28 January
As far as I can tell, the lyrics are actually from the Polovetsian Dances version. --GunnarRene 23:15, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Which pieces of classical music are referred to here? "Incidental music in both shows is strikingly similar during battle scenes; both seem to borrow elements from the same pieces of classical music." --GunnarRene 17:03, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The new guideline Wikipedia:Music samples is relevant here. It might improve the article to include such sample to compare music. --GunnarRene 23:17, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

The relationship with Reika

"Reika Mishima is distant and enigmatic to Ayato", I changed this as well as I do not think its correct either. Genjix
I disagree. At the beginning of the anime, Ayato does not know who Reika is. Not her name. Not that they were in the same class. He only remembers a girl in a yellow dress standing on rock. Ixtli has to hypnothize people into "remembering" her. In the manga, Ayato and Reika are even living in the same house, with Maya as the adoptive mother of Reika. So I'm changing it back. --GunnarRene 18:00, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Ultimately, they're two parts of the same person, the Id and Ego as it were, Reika is Haruka as a child, albeit in an idealized, prophetic(and ultimately subconscious within Ayato, excluding when it anthropomorphizes into a TERRA officer near the end of the series) form. It's revealed at the end of the last episode. Karmafist 17:10, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


Incongruencies

  • In the first episode, Asahina's blood is red after the subway accident. Later on, it's blue.

(edit) ***warning - spoiler ahead*** This is not an actual incongruency - since everybody is under the influence of the MU "brainwashing" in episode one (in Tokyo-Jupiter), the blood appears to be red. In some later episode when Ayato returns to Tokyo-Jupiter and Asahina gets shot in the arm, she only suspects something is wrong but as she is under the influence of MU she can't really tell that her blood is blue. Ayato, being clearminded at this point, recognises that her blood is blue (as do we viewers) but spares her the "bad" news.

That may be. But the sub-mulians' blood could also be turning blue. When Ayato returns to Tokyo Jupiter he sees himself with blue blood. Was it a dream? (I really want to re-watch this series.) --GunnarRene 02:55, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Gunnar: if I understood the movie version correctly, impure Mulians are delayed in when their blood changes color (with the consequent change in personalities and memories, which the factions apparently felt would be decisive in Ayato's final decision), and the timing of events by the various players was concerned with delaying or preceding the tuning of the world with Ayato's blood color. --maru (talk) contribs 03:22, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Actually, people's blood turns blue when their "Mu Phase activates." See the discussion in Episode 3 about how Ayato has the Mu phase in his blood, but its not yet active. --18.95.7.164 04:02, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

RahXephon on the Nature of Reality

This section was very interesting, but there were no citations, nor wiki-links in it. I'm not familiar with Buddhist ontology. (Moved from plot to influences, by the way).--GunnarRene 20:36, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Following response moved from User_talk:TruthCross by User:GunnarRene
Well I think it should at least be mentioned that there is a significant amount of philosophical content in RahXephon. That isn't merely my interpretation either.
How can one cite the occurrence of something so painfully obvious and yet not mentioned directly in any body of legitimate references? Of course I understand what you're saying which is why I think my in-depth interpretation might not be called for. But certainly some mention of it being a series that does have "deeper" elements or food for thought might be in line with the RahXephon entry. The reason for this is two fold. Not only does it provide the reader with some information that might help him understand the series of RahXephon in a new light, but it would also serve to distinguish the series from other animes which do not posses such characteristics.
If such a mention to philosophical themes is not present (even in passing), it would do the series a great injustice. At the very least it should be mentioned and without it the RahXephon entry is missing some "substance," if you will. TruthCross 00:44, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
It is certainly interesting, but could you cite your sources by providing links to the reviews (or citations in the case of magazines/books)? Also, I'm not quite sure that all Ayato did in the TV series was to give people different memories. The movie and the TV series of RahXephon may be more different than the endings of Neon Genesis Evangelion, which are seen by many (including in my POV) to be the same ending, just shown from a different perspective. --GunnarRene 09:10, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Understood, however the reviews in question wouldn't be published reviews (not that I've seen thus far, although I am working on a few pieces for some magazines as we speak). Let's face it, these are animes we're talking about the lot of deep interpretations out there on them come from keen observations noted by fans on discussion boards and websites, not found in anime magazines (don't know about you but I'm not comfortable posting someone's blog as a citation on Wikipedia). Mainstream movies are a different story because more published supplementary content exists.
Does that make the themes present in the movie any less legitimate because we cannot cite them? Not in my opinion. But I see what you're saying, for an Encyclopedia article individual interpretations cannot be implemented without citations. This is a highly debatable issue as to what else to say in addition to "philosophical themes are present," as any follow-up information given would be individual interpretation.
I suggest merely putting that such content is present while not explicitly saying what that "content" is (that is to say, not defining the philosophical themes present as issues regarding morality, the nature of reality, human freedom, or so on). The point is to establish RahXephon (both the series and the movie), as having some legitimacy outside the realm is simply being a "fun anime series," because let's also face it: many animes are "deep thought" animes and some aren't. This might be an important thing to do whenever various interpretations are found on a given entry.
To answer your question, Ayato didn't explicitly give anyone different memories in the series that I remember (if I implied otherwise in my post then it was a mistake). That comment was reserved for Pluralitas Concentio only, I was merely trying to imply that both the series and the movie have philosophical themes (that is to say, I used Pluralitas Concentio's ending as an example of such themes being present, namely the subjective nature of reality which could easily be shifted and toyed and which was entirely based on sense perception). Having concluded that interpretation isn't helpful here it should be excluded. So should references to "Buddhist ontology," since that in and of itself is a debatable issue.
I haven't seen NGE completely so I cannot speak as to whether or not it has philosophical content explicit or implicit in it. Sorry about making these responses so long but such a complex topic needs proper coverage somewhere. But yeah, I think a brief nod toward the series/movie being open to philosophical interpretations is certainly reasonable to state. --TruthCross 04:21, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
It is a guideline, although not a strict policy, to not posts blog content except when relating information or opinions from the owner of the blog, in the article about the blog owner. (Or else the article on George W. Bush would have statements like "X alleges that Bush formed a Satanic Covenant in Texas and ate babies. [link]") It is an improvement, certainly for the reader, if you could link to the forum posts, blogs, or even better anime websites, where those reviews are. We can then determine the reputability of the source, or lack thereof.
If interpretation is needed to state the presence of a theme, perhaps it is better to relate some verifiable facts which that interpretation is based on. --GunnarRene 14:13, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
All right then, I have a good idea of how I'm going to do this. As you suggested if I mention any sort of philosophical themes I'll place with it a citation to a source in which the reader can read-up on similar themes (for a subjective view of reality, for instance, I'll include the scene from the series and a notation to a philosophical text which outlines or mentions a subjective view of reality and so on). Hopefully that'll be clarification enough. But I'll also leave most of the individual interpretation content out of it unless I find sources of interest.
I'll have to edit the post in a few days, but I'll inform the readers of the Wiki when the changes are made via the Talk section. Who knows maybe some readers will be able to supplement the sources mentioned with their own sources, but in the meantime the edit will reflect the themes in general so as not to enter the realm of opinion. --TruthCross 15:39, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I've moved it to talk for the time being. --GunnarRene 11:25, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Now added some of the text to the article in the section on Japanese culture. --GunnarRene 04:34, 11 August 2006 (UTC) It's a lot shorter than what you wrote, but I hope I put your contribution to good use. --GunnarRene 18:02, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

RahXephon on the Nature of Reality

The following section contributed by User:TruthCross was moved to the talk page by User:GunnarRene. --GunnarRene 11:25, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

 This section may contain original research or unverified claims.
Please help Wikipedia by adding references. See the talk page for details.(October 2007)

The ending of the RahXephon series (as well as the ending of the RahXephon motion picture, Pluralitas Concentio) suggest a possible link between RahXephon and a modern day Buddhist ontological view, and/or other similar subjective views of reality (existential anime reviewers have often mentioned such ties). While at the end of the series Ayato Kamina chooses a side of “light” as opposed to retuning the world to benefit the Mu, the consequences of his decision reflect an oddly familiar world view (it should be noted that utter compassion and love fueled his final decision).

In the series an emotionless Ayato appears standing beside a large tree, speaking with his love in gentle but straight forward tones. Ayato explains how things turned out how they were meant to. It was obvious that Ayato was no longer human: he seemed to blend in with his natural surroundings. It was also obvious that Ayato could not stay in the world anymore. Since his love for Haruka Shitow was strong he granted her past memories of the time they should have spent together, and thus the ending of them together is shown at the end of the series. This might have confused the casual audience and thus RahXephon: Pluralitas Concentio adds scenes to the ending in order to clarifying exactly what could have happened.

In Pluralitas Concentio there is a scene by a lake in which Ayato explains the entire situation to Haruka and the moviegoer. He explains how he cannot remain with her in the world as they know it and that now he, in fact, somehow transcended his human state (a state of “Enlightenment” it seemed to many fans of the series). Ayato could not remain with Haruka and Haruka could not remain with Ayato – Ayato was forced to remain in both the past and the present fused with Ixtli (the RahXephon’s soul, Ayato’s other true half) in order to bring harmony to the universe. (Music fans and philosophy majors take note of the difference between concordant sounds and dissonant sounds as they are the only aspect of the RahXephon world which is not subjective, such tones in fact reverberate throughout the world of RahXephon like the recurring image of a droplet of water against a puddle as seen often in the series. They are, in fact, what holds the world of RahXephon together.)

If Ayato left from being in the state which was apart from past and future (a state of reality which is both nothing and something all at once), the world would fill up with discord once more and require retuning. The intelligent moviegoer would immediately speculate that this is perhaps why there is a RahXephon in the first place, and that perhaps the world in the series needed retuning. It should be also noted that the Alice and Wonderland book, “Through the Looking Glass” was mentioned repeatedly throughout the motion picture, once again supporting this view of a subjective reality. Which reality is correct, the Mu world or the human world? The movie does not decide that for the audience, neither does it speak of the legitimacy of the world untuned or the world tuned.

However what it does do is present an ending in which an aged Haruka explains to her daughter how that question of which reality is more legitimate is futile, or even foolish to ask, instead what matters is what took place: a couple much in love was able to hold onto memories of being in love, while the world was retuned. Whether or not the retuning of the world actually changed the physical world is unknown. It should be mentioned though that one should not speculate that the world itself was not changed simply because it wasn't mentioned: both in Pluralitas Concentio as well as the series, the world of RahXephon was significantly devastated.

The philosophical themes present in Pluralitas Concentio are not entirely new; such themes were present in the anime series as well (the motion picture just helps to understand them for those that did not understand after the end of the series). This aspect of the anime makes it approachable by people of all ages, from those that like philosophy to youngsters that simply enjoy mecha battles.

TfD nomination of Template:RahXephon infobox

Template:RahXephon infobox has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. TheFarix (Talk) 00:14, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Infobox placement

The definition is moved above the infobox. See Wikipedia_talk:List_of_infoboxes#Search_engine_appearance for rationale. --GunnarRene 08:53, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Very militarist

I would add that the series and film are very militarist in nature. Contrarily to Neon Genesis Evangelion, RahXephon is much pro-fighting. I think someone should add this fact and highlight the "nationalist"-like essence of the whole series. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.167.29.181 (talk • contribs) 05:49, May 4, 2006 (UTC).

Could you mention some examples of this? RahXephon comments on the Japanese pacifist culture. It also comments on anti-Mu jingoism (see article) and also describes an event where humans over-reached, and turned to nuclear weapons with ill effect. --GunnarRene 14:25, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, the apparently senseless depredations (I say senseless since the majority of them seem to have served no purpose but to kill people, and the few characters such as Ayato's former friend or Kunugi's former commander which we see manning powerful Dolems certainly do nothing to dispell such a conclusion) of the Mu (avoided only by destroying killing the Dolems) are certainly in favor of militarism in a broad sense, but on the other hand, fighting only seems to bring suffering, and agressive moves seem to results in death and destruction for the agressors- witness the Barbem Foundation armor-encased dolems (another parallel with Eva) which have to be rescued by RahXephon, or the catastrophic failure of Operation Teardown, which eventually killed how many by unleashing the Mu on the world? It looks to me like defensive operations are condoned, but aggressive ones aren't. --maru (talk) contribs 03:37, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the section explaining how RahXephon is favorable to Evangelion is biased.

And it's filled with weasel words like "some people". It should be removed or re-written to remove all bias and favoritism.

Explaining how RahXephon is favourable to RahXephon? It was supposed to show both sides, but regrettably it became some kind of argumentation arcade for Wikipedia editors rather than a place to write about the reception of the show (with reliable sources). I move that opinions there that can't be backed up are moved to the talk page, and that the points of similarity with Eva that Eva itself had with Gundam and Ideon be removed, perhaps. --GunnarRene 21:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Or rather, note how Eva itself had those similarities without removing the points themselves. --GunnarRene 21:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

It's now been re-written with reliable sources. There are still a few unreferenced points, and those might be removed soon unless we find citations for it. --GunnarRene 13:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC)