Talk:Rafael Maroto

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More information about this article... The following comments have been left for this page: Recently (Sept-Oct 2006) translated from a Spanish language article that was featured, though under-referenced. Tough translation, at least a dozen remaining issues identified on talk page. - Jmabel 05:35, 2 November 2006 (UTC) (edit)

[edit] A few things

A few things I'm wondering if have been translated correctly:

• ejército de maniobra: literally "army of maneuver", I'd consider "field army", rendered as "mobile army".
• proscrito with reference to Carlos: we've ended up with "exiled". I think that is correct. Another possiblity would be "outlaw" or "outlawed"
• capitanía general is translated simply as "command", and capitán general as "captain"; I think the latter is simply wrong. (el capitán general cambió de parecer ==> "the captain changed his mind") I believe a capitán general is actually a type of general.

Does anyone either have some thoughts on these, or some other issues? (By the way, I'm finding this an unusually tough one, are others?) - Jmabel | Talk 22:49, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Even Google's machine translator gives me "mobile army" and not "army of maneuver". -Fsotrain₀₉ 23:08, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I suspect that Google's machine translator is exactly where someone got "mobile army". But I also suspect that "field army" is more correct. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. - Jmabel | Talk 04:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

From the DRAE:

Capitán General: cargo correspondiente al mando militar supremo en las regiones terrestres y en los departamentos marítimos.

Proscrito: exiled should be OK

Cheers, --Ecelan 15:23, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

So clearly capitán general is a much higher rank than "captain". - Jmabel | Talk 23:58, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I don´t know. I would go for General Commander. I will try to check this better once I get back home tomorrow (at an internet cafe right now, sorry)--Asterion^talk 14:18, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Convenio de Vergara: right now, we variously have "Treaty of Vergara" or only partial translation. I suggest "Pact of Vergara", with "Convenio de Vergara" parenthetically on first mention. Any objections? - Jmabel | Talk 03:04, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

How about "Vergara Convention"? It's both the literal cognate of "convenio", and a common diplomatic term for treaties. --Fsotrain₀₉ 03:25, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

That's a decent choice; at this date, it had not yet come to have its more modern connotation of big, overarching things like the Berne Convention, Geneva Conventions or Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties. - Jmabel | Talk 18:10, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I have tried to make some sense of the ranks of Subteniente. It is quite difficult to express the meaning, as there were two kinds of Second Lieutenant in the Spanish army then. My best gues was to label one ensign and the other, second lieutenant (first ensign). Hope this will get the message accross. Regards, Asterion^talk 23:57, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unresolved phrases

• "Así, tras efectuar al intendente Díaz de Labandero peticiones de armamento y uniformes totalmente imposibles de cumplir…": I'm a bit thrown by this, especially efectuar, which seems an odd choice. I think all it is saying is, "Thus, after sending Intendant to Díaz de Labandero petitions for armaments and uniforms that were totally impossible [for the Intendant] to fulfill…" Does anyone read it differently? - Jmabel | Talk 06:08, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

- "Thus, after asking Intendant Diaz de Labandero to be equipped with weapons and uniforms that he couldn't obtain..." (something like that) 189.160.22.220 18:58, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

But that doesn't make any sense. And I see nothing here about asking Díaz to "be equipped". Where are you seeing that? - Jmabel | Talk 02:07, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

• Gracia y Justicia: literally "Grace and Justice". I assume that a minister of "Gracia y Justicia" is exactly the same as a "Minister of Justice". Should we just translate it as "Justice" or as "Grace and Justice"?
• de carta y compás as a pejorative: literally "of map and compass"; this must have some connotation that escapes me. Obviously not a common phrase, because Google does not turn up another metaphorical use of it on line. - Jmabel | Talk 06:23, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

- It probably means that they were very strict, that they used "map and compass" to make every decision 189.160.22.220 19:07, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

• It certainly suggests both precision and abstraction, but I'd really like to see a citation from a dictionary of idiomatic Spanish. - Jmabel | Talk 02:07, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

The expression "General de Carta y Compás" might refer to "Chateau General". See [1] Jespinos 17:01, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Good point. My own guess was that it refers to a general who makes war plans without any sort of contact with the actual battleground, as in the case of Haig. Regards, Asterion^talk 20:21, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pérez Galdós

Not really sure whether it is a good idea to translate the title of the book Episodios nacionales, as National Incidents. I would personally go for National Episodes[2] or even leave it untranslated.[3]. Regards, --Asterion^talk 21:03, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Redlinks

Most of the redlinks in this translated article are names of army officers. Several have articles on the Spanish Wikipedia; should those be translated? -Fsotrain⁰⁹ 00:18, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ready to go?

Can we have a final round of copyedits to this article (preferably a native English speaker) and then decide if it is OK to move to the Rafael Maroto page? Regards, Asterion^talk 21:04, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Pretty close; I've made some edits. Here's what I think we should still address (but we can move it into article space as is and address this there):

• Is there a good English equivalent for "Visitador de Rentas"? I assume that is a tax official of some sort.
• Can someone clarify "Shield of Honor"?
• Have we really done the right thing with the word "plaza", as in "the French attacked the plaza of Valencia" or as in "plaza of Bilbao"? Presumably it means the city center, not just the plaza, right? In English, plaza can only mean a major public square.
• What exactly are "Santa Catalina and Torres de Cuarte"? Neighborhoods in Valencia? Suburbs?
• "with distinction to the mother country" is awkward
• There are probably a lot more place names deserving links, but I'm not sure where to link many of them. For example, "He gained control of Pilar, the batteries of San José, Puerta Quemada and Tenerías." I'm guessing that these are historical suburbs of Zaragoza, now absorbed as neighborhoods, and probably all deserving articles.
• Confusing: "Bernardo O'Higgins managed to make his way past the royal troops and retreat to the capital, where his opponents entered without resistance a few days later." But the capital is Santiago. So O'Higgins retreated to the very place where "his opponents entered without resistance a few days later"? Perhaps it means to say "retreat from the capital"?
• "resigning his command and position within the comandancia general." Should this just be "general command"? "General staff"? or something else?
• Does anyone know the full name of Colonel Campos y España?
• "With the army on point" is odd, I don't know what it means.
• Any idea what to do with "Alto Aragón"? Should it be "Upper Aragon", or something else?
• Comisario de Guerra still untranslated
• Cuartel General still untranslated: "In the Cuartel General of Vergara"

Also, we should make a firm decision between U.S. and Commonwealth English; right now it's a bit of a mix.

One further remark: although this is a Spanish-language featured article, it clearly does not have the degree of footnoting that would make it even a good article by the English-language Wikipedia's current standards. If anyone wants to add more precise citation, that would be a big plus.

Even though I've just flagged over a dozen minor issues, I don't see anything here that should prevent us from moving this into regular article space. If no one objects in the next 48 hours or so, I will do that. - Jmabel | Talk 23:19, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I support moving this into regular article space now -- even though, as you noted, it still needs quite a bit of improvement.--Fagles 01:36, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Jmabel, "on point" was my literal translation of a punto, done during a cleanup sweep. I do support moving this into regular article space; let it be picked over by a wider set of eyes there. -Fsotrain⁰⁹ 15:48, 30 October 2006 (UTC)