Talk:Radwan Dąbrowski-Żądło Family

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article was nominated for deletion on 5 June 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

[edit] Notable?

Per WP:BIO - this article is a merger of referenced articles unrelated to the discussed family, and than notes three people of that surname, 2 of which are not referenced. I don't see proof that the family is notable and desrvers an article on Wikipedia.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I would support speedy deletion. There is altogether too much pandering on Wikipedia, as it is, to private sentimental interest in szlachta origins. Ten percent of Poland belonged to that class; going on endlessly about their relationships serves only to make many of the pertinent articles look ridiculous. Over two centuries ago, during the debates preliminary to the adoption of the Constitution of May 3, 1791, Julian Ursyn Niemcewicz argued that we should consider the current merits of living individuals rather than rummage in ancient dusty patents of nobility. Nihil novi (talk) 04:02, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Given the published references, make a better argument for "private sentimental interest," please.  Also, it was the szlachta who led the fight for Polish independence and sovereignty.  My interest in this family is they serve as an adequate example of Polish patriotism within the szlachta, and how that carried through generation after generation from antiquity.  This fighting for Poland's right to exist fell upon the szlachta's shoulders time and time again.  Author Norman Davies makes it clear on page 206 of his GOD'S PLAYGROUND: A HISTORY OF POLAND, VOLUME I, THE ORIGINS TO 1795, that in the life of the Polish-Lithuanian Republic, the szlachta played the dominant role in political, social, and cultural life.  That's what this article demonstrates very plainly.  I think supporting speedy deletion of this article is ridiculous, myself, and I question the motives of the people behind this request.  The old, dusty argument that nobility is of no merit is a good one, but history is what it is, and there's no dismissing that many Patriotic Poles, especially during the times of the Partitions, were nobles, and this article serves as a detailed and factual exploration of their social origins, with one family in particular, Radwan Dąbrowski-Żądło, used as a convenient historical example.  Attempts to reduce this to pandering to private sentimental interests or memorializing feel too much to my tastes like an effort to suppress the truth of social origins in Polish history, which is widely known to have been a point of contention, especially in communist times.  I don't think I'm alone in wanting specific factual information regarding the fate of noble Polish families whose names appear time and time again throughout history in widely-published sources of every kind. -- Exxess (talk) 18:45, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Considering the Russians attempts to crush the Polish Nobility, the German attempts to eliminate Poles from public life and landed property in Eastern Germany under Otto von Bismarck, to the ethnic cleansing planned by Imperial Germany during the First World War, to Hitler's "We have already formed displacement policies regarding the Polish population within Poland; the ultimate task is to wipe out the Poles and repopulate lands that rightfully belong to Germany" (April 13, 1941 speech), etc., I thought it be informative to let the world know some of the noble/szlachta Radwan Dąbrowski-Żądło's survived, which, considering all the above, is in itself notable. All things considered, many members of this family in Eastern Europe were probably annihilated by Germans, Nazi's, and Russians.

Joseph Dabrowski (b. 1908 - d. 1991) was in involved with labor movements (AFL-CIO) on the East Coast, U.S.A., along with many cultural activities of the American Polonia, including contacts with former Delaware Governor Pete du Pont. It will take time to find all the source material, as much of it is pre-Internet, meaning visiting local libraries on the East Coast, given his local contemporaries are deceased.

This article is a start awaiting contributions, possibly from other living branches of this family abroad.

Particular members of this family married into more notable lines of Polish nobility.

Concerning the comment "this article is a merger of referenced articles unrelated to the discussed family" -- that is a matter of debate, which I dispute. This family were anciently Radwan's FIRST, hence the material speaking of the origins of the Radwanice in the context of Polish "clans"; then to distinguish themselves amongst the other Radwan's, they used the distinguishing name "Żądło" secondly; lastly, they began using the topographical surname "Dąbrowski". -- Exxess 04:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

What makes this collection of persons associated with a particular coat-of-arms more notable than hundreds of thousands of other Polish szlachta families? There can be no end to discussion of which szlachta were related to which other, since they were essentially all related by blood or marriage. Nihil novi (talk) 02:27, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Nothing, other than the fact I've dedicated the time to researching this particular noble Polish family, which was a result of reading about Jarosław Radwan Dąbrowski-Żądło in James H. Billington's book FIRE IN THE MINDS OF MEN: ORIGINS OF THE REVOLUTIONARY FAITH.  This peculiar Dąbrowski keeps making appearances in the historical record in many other works, as does his brother (not discussed in my Wikipedia article).  I myself personally would like to see Wikipedia entries and links for each remaining family under the Radwan Coat-of-Arms, as well as all the other noble Polish families under the remaining Polish Coat-of-Arms appearing in Wikipedia.  To be precise, the szlachta were the Polish nation (until the time of the Partitions), to the exclusion of the other estates in Poland, lawfully speaking, which explains the szlachta's legal franchises, rights, and privileges, despite great differences in wealth and social standing amongst the szlachta, peasants sometimes in command of greater wealth than particular members of the szlachta, but peasants without the same legal franchises, rights, and privileges.  Also, I think this particular article discussing the Radwan Dąbrowski-Żądło family is essentially more than a mere discussion of which szlachta were related to each other.  The significance is in this fact using Stefan Tytus Zygmunt Dąbrowski herbu Radwan as an example -- Dąbrowski's family was a fundamental influence on his life, which included growing up in an atmosphere of patriotism in the environs of Warsaw at the end of the nineteenth century, emphasis from the above on FAMILY, FUNDAMENTAL INFLUENCE, ATMOSPHERE OF PATRIOTISM.  In my mind, this is so patently obvious, hence this article demonstrating just that -- FAMILY (nobility), FUNDAMENTAL INFLUENCE (szlachta leading the charge for Polish independence, sovereignty, honor, and freedom, not always, but often), and ATMOSPHERE OF PATRIOTISM.  It must have wounded szlachta Polish pride deeply to watch their nation become lost to the partitioning powers. -- Exxess (talk) 03:19, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

There were also peasants—descendants of bankrupt szlachta—who possessed coats-of-arms. And Poland had its share of non-szlachta leaders, such as Jan Kiliński, who were every bit as patriotic as some szlachta, and more so than the szlachta Targowica Confederates. So why this apotheosis of a social class whose ancient rights and privileges Poland legally ceased to uphold between the World Wars, well before the institution of the postwar communist leveling program? Nihil novi (talk) 04:33, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Aaah, the old canard, the apotheosis of the szlachta versus the truly righteous and deserving, but neglected, peasants.  Myself, I don't see any apotheosis in this particular article, but I do see revealed the motives for the wanting of a speedy deletion now coming to light, as I suspected.  Regarding the Radwan Dąbrowski-Żądło family, I quote:  "Members of meager means (dość uboga) always existed in this noble family..."  That to me does not sound at all like any apotheosis.  This article is an explication of the social milieu reflected in a peculiar patriotic noble Polish family.  How that disparages peasants or peasant patriotism I fail to see.  Read the article clearly.  Apollo Nałęcz Korzeniowski, a Polish nobleman, and Jarosław Radwan Dąbrowski-Żądło, a Polish nobleman, wanted Polish independence and sovereignty, accompanied by social revolution, meaning the emancipation of the peasants.  I dispute your statement suggesting impoverished nobles who possessed Coat-of-Arms were peasants, strictly speaking.  In law they were not.  Norman Davies goes on about this, how despite degradation, the petty nobleman did not lose noble status or their legal rights.  SEE pages 229-30 of his GOD'S PLAYGROUND: A HISTORY OF POLAND, VOLUME I, THE ORIGINS TO 1795. -- Exxess (talk) 06:36, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Jan Kiliński, I for one would like to see a Wikipedia article on the Kiliński family, beginning with their origins to the present day.  Too many confuse the social estates with socio-economic classes and wealth, and each social estate (Crown, clergy, nobleman, burgher, Jew, and peasant) has a history worth exploring, but the fact of the matter is, mobility between the estates was difficult, and wealth counted less than law, heredity, and custom.  Attempts to understand Polish history outside this context, instead relying on ideology and idealism, are a detriment to the truth of the matter. -- Exxess (talk) 07:04, 23 December 2007 (UTC)