Talk:Racism in the LGBT community

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[edit] not neutral

Whoa. This is not neutral. --Revolución hablar ver 11:01, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I made a lot of changes. It's better now. --Revolución hablar ver 14:38, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Need a source

In San Antonio, Texas, the Esperanza Peace and Justice Center, a multi-issue, racially diverse umbrella organization which is the center of progressive, as well as gay and lesbian organizing for the area, has been directly attacked by the area's only gay publication, The Marquise. The attack centers on a number of issues including Esperanza's efforts to make arts institutions culturally diverse and its inclusion of issues of race, class, and gender within gay and lesbian politics. Because of the attack, several 'gay conservatives', have been blamed for “working againest the Civil rights movement”.[1] After San Antonio Councilman Roger Perez appointed a staff person from Esperanza to the City's Cultural Arts Board, Glenn Stehle, editor of The Marquise, wrote a letter to Councilman Perez stating that "I am here to tell you, Mr. Perez, that not all gays and lesbians are Marxists, nor do we all subscribe to the theories of French poststructuralism... We don't go around picking fights with the Catholic church nor any other religious or secular group in town with our loudmouthed in-your-face histrionics. In the political spectrum, the lesbian and gay community voted more Republican than the Jewish, Black and Hispanic populations in the last election...."[1] In addition to the letter writing campaign, Esperanza's offices were repeatedly vandalized, particularly after gay-related events. Sanchez notes that Esperanza got hate calls after an invitation to a lesbian/gay art show was sent to an exclusively gay list. Harassment of the organization varied from break-ins to a slashed bra wiped with feces left on a tree branch near where Esperanza's staff park their cars, as well as feces spread on the windows and by the front entrance of the Esperanza office.[1] Surina Khan, who is an Associate Analyst at Political Research Associates writes; they are able to be convinced, as others within the [gay] mainstream have been, that people of color, or immigrants, or welfare recipients, or government bureaucrats, or butch lesbians, or drag queens are the problem.[1]

I would like a source for the claim that "the attack [by The Marquise] centers on a number of issues including Esperanza's efforts to make arts institutions culturally diverse; its inclusion of issues of race, class, and gender within gay and lesbian politics; and the sexually explicit art exhibited at Esperanza-sponsored gay and lesbian art shows". --Revolución hablar ver 09:08, 28 February 2007 (UTC)



[edit] Questions arising from race-based porn fetishes

In recent years there appears to have been an increase in the categorization of gay porn by race. While some may view this as a positive development in interest in, or at least the acknowledgement of, non-stereotypical young white male gay models and actors (twinks) in the industry, others may object to such differentiation according to race. The suggestion of race-based gay porn fetish, accompanied by outdated stereotypes such as the super-hung gay black male or the 'exotic' gay asian male, may easily lead to uncomfortable questions about the additional 'objectification' (?) of gay models and actors on racial grounds.

Many gay porn sites and porn shops have categories based on sexual activity (such as oral sex, anal sex, group sex, facials, masturbation etc ...but interracial sex is almost always put into a category of its own) and types of models and actors (such as bears, cubs, hung, studs, hunks, cut, uncut, muscled, fat, twinks, barely legal, mature etc) but then have separate categories based on race (such as asian, arab, black, latino etc ...but interestingly rarely explicitly "white" - the closest would be 'exotic' nationality-based descriptions such as "eastern european", "australian", "all-american", "greek", "czech", "romanian" etc ). Such observations make it difficult to imagine that the racial categorization of gay porn is as innocent as separating jelly beans by color before consuming them. This begs the question of whether this is done to cater for those with a strict preference for gay porn starring members of a particular race, or to 'protect' those viewing other non-racial categories from stumbling across images of non-white gay men that they would rather not view.

Thinkerboy 11:58, 27 April 2007 (UTC)Thinkerboy

[edit] LGBT self-identification terminology

Please excuse me if I am displaying ignorance in my observations.

Do terms such as GWM (gay white male), GBM (gay black male) and SGL (same gender loving) have equivalents of the same degree of popularity in the non-LGBT community? If not, can this observation be explained? Do you think it deserves mention in the article? Thinkerboy 11:44, 2 May 2007 (UTC)Thinkerboy

[edit] Comparison with racism outside the LGBT community?

Since racism exists almost everywhere, I think it's fair to compare attitudes toward race within and outside the LGBT community. Are there any polls on the subject? I'd be very surprised if LGBTs aren't at least a little less racist, overall, than society at large. LGBT racism is striking because it seems ironic, not necessarily because it's more predominant than non-LGBT racism -- the article should somehow make that clear. Tlogmer ( talk / contributions ) 17:52, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

It's because of the inability of some people with anti-gay or just plain idiotic agendas to see that just because someone who is white and gay does something racist, it shouldn't reflect on all white gays, and especially on all gays. And we are less racist than straights, regardless of any color one is , the gay community is more racially harmonious than the "straight community" (if you want to use that term) could ever be. --Revolución hablar ver 05:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


The argument that falling victim to prejudice automatically immunises the victim from becoming a perpetrator of prejudice may sound logical at first, but the irony of victims unintentionally seeking out others to victimize is nothing new. Think about sexual abuse, playground bullies, internalized homophobia, female misogynists... the list is endless. Perhaps generally elevated levels of racism in the LGBT community may be an indirect response to generally elevated levels of homophobia in non-white communities. Sadly, an unlucky subset of some LGBT people of color may end up having to deal with generally elevated levels of homophobia from their non-white community, and generally elevated levels of 'misdirected' racism from their LGBT community. Perhaps it could be described as the plight of "double minorities" in a prejudiced society. It shouldnt be too difficult to imagine how that could develop into an extraordinary "persecution complex" for those facing prejudice daily on several fronts. It's all conjecture until we have found a credible non-biased study on the issue. Until then, conjecture, personal accounts and open discussion are all we've got to work with. Thinkerboy 12:04, 27 April 2007 (UTC)Thinkerboy

[edit] The global validity of this article is questionable

The article's opening sentence is an interesting generalisation, the complete opposite of which holds true in Cape Town, South Africa. Perhaps the article ought to be split up by geographical location, especially in cases where reports indicate geographically-based variations of this phenomenon? Thinkerboy 11:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC)Thinkerboy

The article's opening sentence is an interesting generalisation, the complete opposite of which holds true in Cape Town, South Africa. Could you elaborate? --Revolución hablar ver 09:37, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Sure. Racism is a persistent problem in Cape Town. I lived there for four years and found that incidents of racism were far more common and blatant within the LGBT community than they were in the general population. There are special historical explanations for the subtle and explicit forms of racism in Cape Town (see apartheid). While many sections of South Africa's diverse society have made significant progress in moving on from the country's past, in Cape Town the LGBT community generally enjoys less racial integration than the non-LGBT community. With some exceptions, gay and gay friendly events and venues are typically polarised by race which sadly still largely determines where most Capetonians live, their economic status and level of education. For example, there are black and coloured township-based (see Cape Flats ) LGBT communities which have cultures and dialects distinct from the generally more affluent white LGBT community found in suburbs such as the gaybourhood of De Waterkant in Greenpoint near Cape Town's CBD (see Gail language). Such differences, coupled with a difficult history, have lead to frequent and unpleasant incidents in the LGBT community being reported as cases of racism, and clumsily being defended as cases of classism or conveniently being attributed to misunderstandings based on cultural differences. For example, certain words in Capetonian vocabulary such as "upmarket", "private" or "secluded" are often used as euphemisms to denote limited access and or varying degrees of hostility towards non-white LGBT people from South Africa and other parts of sub-Saharan Africa, regardless of actual economic status. I personally witnessed several incidents of undue hostility and blatant racial profiling directed towards non-white LGBT patrons by security guards and bouncers, other patrons, barmen and waitrons, managers and proprietors at different gay and gay friendly venues in Cape Town. Snobbery and reverse snobbery are very common in Cape Town but are far more common within Cape Town's LGBT community, often finding expression in racial terms. A quick google search, a casual browse through gaydar or mambaonline personals, a chat in the #gaysa irc chatroom or a full tour of greater Cape Town as an interracial LGBT couple (free tip: not on your honeymoon!) might be more useful in shedding light on the issue. Thinkerboy 11:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC)Thinkerboy

I removed that part from the intro you objected to. However, I strongly oppose any generalization about racism being more prevalent in the LGBT community. --Revolución hablar ver 06:05, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussions about racism are characteristically accompanied and maintained by denial

I would have loved to have been able to remain confidently defensive about racism in the LGBT community in comparison to racism in the non-LGBT community. One of the humbling things I learned during my four year stay in Cape Town is that if we truly want to make the world a better place, it is more sensible to register information, particularly personal accounts of racism, as educational rather than accusatory. Racism is after all, a generally subjective issue, usually defined by the volatile perception of its victim and denied by the hardened conscience of its perpetrator. We ought to work towards acknowledging those shameful things that many of us would naturally rather deny or look the other way when we encounter them - if for no other reason, to address prejudice in all its forms, be it homophobia, sexism, racism, classism or xenophobia, particularly within the LGBT community where we already have more than our fair share of prejudice from outside our community to address. It was a slow, sad lesson I had to learn over and over again. Being in a state of denial only helped prevent the complete digestion of the shocking realities all around me but when it came to improving the lot of others, denial didnt help one bit. Online polls are likely to be skewed by sample selection and respondent bias. It's a fairly complex and sensitive issue to be discussed in its entirety in a single wikipedia article. I wouldnt be surprised if a dissertation that deals with the issue more thoroughly is lurking in the basement of a library somewhere. 195.189.142.227 12:31, 27 April 2007 (UTC)Thinkerboy

  • Naturally , as gay rights activists we try to avoid discussion of topics like this which would make our community look bad. But I think it should be addressed so we can move on and prevent it. Since gays are more focused on than straights, racism by gays is talked about like it reflects on us all, even the many non-racist ones or non-white ones, but the many straight racists, that's always a reflection on white people but not straight people. Just an observation. How about including a section about anti-racism in the LGBT community? What do you think? --Revolución hablar ver 00:46, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Great idea!
195.189.142.247 03:28, 30 April 2007 (UTC)Thinkerboy
So why didn't you add a section on anti-racism, rather than requesting to delete the entire article? --George100 14:46, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The potent combination of racism and homophobia - its prevalence, infamous incidents and their effects

The Racist-Homophobe tag team (and its trail of destruction) also needs to be exposed in a separate section, I think.

Nelson Mandela is an extreme activist, preaching tolerance in all contexts in an effort to bring healing to his country, South Africa. The same can be said about Desmond Tutu and a number of other African leaders. Such people can be credited for contributing heavily towards the societal and legal changes that many gay South Africans can enjoy today.

However, as we have already established, it only takes a few shocking incidents for perceptions to be persuaded towards generalisations that become frozen in society. African leaders such as Jacob Zuma, Robert Mugabe, Sam Nujoma, Daniel Arap Moi, Yoweri Museveni and several African religious figures, most notably those from the Anglican church are notoriously relentless in their campaigns of racialised homophobia. The claim put forward in such campaigns is that homosexuality is "un-African" and is not only alien to Africa but also totally unacceptable in all the continent's diverse cultures. They lay down the law, inciting widespread homophobia often in violent terms, publicly creating and reinforcing links between homosexuality and "colonial influence", cleverly made synonymous with "Western influence", "European influence" and "white influence" to take advantage of their respected authority in such matters and use it to justify and spread their homophobic rage, portraying it as a national issue. Such campaigns are often easily bought by uneducated populations with homophobic cultures and religious beliefs, with fresh memories and fears of colonial oppression. This has no doubt contributed a great deal to self-hate and internalized homophobia in many gay Africans. As a result (with the assistance of media stereotypes), firm mental associations have been created between race and homosexuality, race and homophobia, race and homophilia, race and sexual tolerance, race and sexual intolerance, race and open mindedness regarding sexuality, race and conservative thoughts on sexuality, race and safety/trust, race and fear/mistrust... etc. Many of the countries that have had these campaigns of racialised homophobia also have strict laws against homosexuality and notorious human rights abuse records, with many LGBT people (particularly LGBT activists, sympathizers of LGBT rights and those who are openly gay) falling victim to surveillance, "disappearances", random detention, imprisonment, torture and even death. Not only does this keep people in the closet (reinforcing the myth that homosexuality is alien to Africa), but it creates racial suspicion among closetted gays in these countries, either because of mental associations described above or because of the more practical fear of falling for bait and getting into serious trouble with the law.

Something could also be said about infamous incidents of racialised homophobia in popular sub-cultures such as reggae, hip hop, islamic fundamentalism, certain gangs etc. Similarly, those associated with sexual tolerance and racial integration (such as the hippie movement and bohemianism) may be deserving of special mention.

Do you think any of those ramblings should be converted into material worthy of encyclopedic reference? That's a lot of work... is anybody up to it? I would be willing to try, but it's just too difficult for me because I'm using a mini browser with limited capabilities at the moment. 195.189.142.247 05:21, 30 April 2007 (UTC)Thinkerboy

Well, it's really unfortunate such views are expressed. The irony is, the laws and homophobic viewpoints were imposed by the Europeans during colonialism. There was a great deal of African cultures before colonialism which had no problem with homosexuality or bisexuality, cross-dressing etc. The introduction of religions like Christianity and Islam in parts of Africa drastically changed this as was the forced adoption of European "moral police" laws. The apartheid regime indeed persecuted homosexuals, it was the anti-apartheid movement which helped gain rights for gays and lesbians and overturn the archaic laws. The Stonewall riots, the world symbolic event of gay resistance, the gays there were mainly Black and Latino. --Revolución hablar ver 02:38, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

And by the way, there's some links here on LGBT involvement in civil rights/anti-racism struggles. The Gay Liberation Front was very supportive of movements like the Puerto Rican Young Lords or the Black Panther Party. --Revolución hablar ver 02:38, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] mere acknowledgment to curb ignorance and denial

I'm not actually sure we need this article - LBGT* people are as likely to be racist as anyone else. Being gay doesn't make you tolerant. 172.206.36.63 06:50, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

sure, but not everybody knows that. many people are prepared to strongly defend our community as being less racist than the non-LGBT community - it's a fairly common myth that needs some attention, imho. (please read some of the comments above)

To even suggest this article is unnecessary is a blatant disregard for the chaotic internal transgressions of the LGBT community which is threatening it. Any University with a GLBT program or related sociological courses on race and sexuality will almost always focus on internal racism of the community. .:DavuMaya:. 04:05, 15 October 2007 (UTC)