Talk:Racism in Russia during the 2000s

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Contents

[edit] NPOV violation. Opinion presented as fact

Violation of Wikipedia article guidlines. No refrences or citation to prove point in the first paragraph that either of organization made any racist statements: In Russia the issue of Racism is present in the statements of Liberal Democratic Party of Russia and Russian Movement against illegal immigration (Russian language site). One may argue if those political movements are reflecting the opinion of majority of Russians or not, and if their political course is significant enough; but even if the followers of segregation are not the majority in contemporary Russia, the tendency is clearly present.

[edit] Biased

People who wrote this simply don't have any idea about the actual subject. Everything written here is what the Western Rusophobic (they all are, try BBC.com: to an uneducated person it will seems Russia is wrose than hell itself) media tells you. Now, I can't, of course, deny that racism in Russia exists, as it does in all other countries. But this very article is simply wrong. Please don't call me names, I am not a fanatical patriot or whatever and I very much support the West. I rather simply want this article to be as unbiased as possible, making corrections to all the points. So, for example, take skinheads. Do you really think all Russian males are skinheads, everyone kills black people etc.? Of course not, we - Russians - are afrain of them as much as blacks are. It is just a very undesireble element of our society and it is very much condemned. But this article doesn't mention it. The reader will get the feeling that any foreigner here will be killed the second he walks out of the airport, then ritually burned etc.

Ok, I can go on forever. Basically, my point is simple: to every point against there should be a point pro. Russians as people are not racist. We love and care for everyone. If a foreigner walks into a Siberian village, the people there will give him everything and do everything to make him feel good. There are people who are racist, but why, you know, label them as the whole Russian population?

End.


I agree. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1264/is_n4_v20/ai_7756645 This links to an account of an African girl in the Soviet Union. Everything I research indicates biast information is aimed at against Russia sometimes. Danil

218.111.22.180

I took out the entire first paragraph as it completely unsabstantiated by any citation of any actual statements from LDPR and DPNI that would expose them as racist. They are nationalistic, and oppose illegal immigration, but there is nothing racist about it. This section was written by someone who likes to make up facts, rather then report them. Someone on the left, as usual.
I found this last comment (regarding 'the left') to be completely unnecessary. We can discuss this respectfully and objectively without insulting eachother personally, or making gross generalizations. Alexis 09:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

--

There are a number of questionable and clearly biased points in the article, for example there is no official policy to discriminate against Caucasian males marrying Slavic women, there are only some xenophobic individuals in Russia who resent this. Nonetheless, marriages between Caucasian males and Slavic women are very common in Russia, while the marriages between Caucasian females and Slavic males remain a social taboo in many Caucasian societies and are very rare. Also with all due respect Nick Gabrichidze's opinion about discrimination towards Caucasians is the opinion of only one man and is not enough to claim it as a new phenomenon. Finally, the level of hostility towards for example Georgians (who share the same Orthodox Christian faith and related culture with Russians) is nowhere near the level of antagonism between Russians and Chechens which is an exceptional case due two years of violent conflict in Chechnya. (Not to mention what some Caucasian peoples for example Armenians and Ossetians have traditionally close and friendly relations with the Russians). (Fisenko 04:36, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC))


I find it ridiculous to inovoke "Movement against illegal immigration" as a society for segregation. The whole problem with illegal immigrants is that they are way far from the best representatives of the ethnicity. And the same was 30 year ago: Georgians I've seen in Tbilisi and I've seen in Minsk markets are two different nations. mikka (t) 22:19, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Simulatity in religeous beliefs is rarely a factor to stop ethnical or racial discrimination hence the christiany of Georgians isn't an proof that this group does not suffer from the discrimination.

Skinheads may be a British invention but when it comes to sheer numbers, levels of violence and hatred of foreigners a damning new report suggests Russia has become the bovver boys' blood-soaked new playground. It may be a country that vilifies fascism more than any other and arguably had to make the most appalling sacrifices to defeat Nazi Germany 60 years ago but this is where skinhead culture has taken hold like nowhere else.Ell (t) 19:21, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] American usage

The following phrase removed:

In North America where Caucasian refers to light complexioned people indigenous to, or descended from Europe, word caucasophobia is used mostly by American White supremacists, White separatists and afrophobes to describe the "anti-white racism", which according to them, is existing in the American society.

This usage is unconfirmed in mainstream usage; even worse that the Russian version. Of course, you may stick the tail "phobia" to any word, but to be discussed in encyclopedia the usage may be well-established. mikka (t) 22:05, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • The American usage of the Word is available in many publications, mostly ultra conservative and white separatist lingo regarding the presumption of "anti-white" racism among black radicals in USA. Please see the book The New H.N.I.C.: The Death of Civil Rights and the Reign of Hip Hop by Todd Boyd or other publication of this extreme-right author where this word is present in a big numbers. Anyway this particular remark was added to the article to avoid any confusion die to different use of words "Caucasian" and "caucasophobia" in Russian and American societies.

This is a last warning Please stop vandalizing this article only because you do not like it's content. You seem to have a lots of contribution for this on-line resource(wikipedia) so please do not make us file another page protection and vandalism report. Please, let's solve it in a friendly way. This plague about dispute and following discussion is enough. If you feel that parts of content here are too harsh please EDIT them istead of deleting content completely. Besides you already filed a VfD, so even editing, not to talk about constantly deleting whole paragraphs of the text you are trying to terminate is not appropriateAuthors 3:19 pm, 14Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Illegal immigrants in Russia

I was never in my life interested in Russian politics and almost never read any Russian news in last 7 years (except of sites with Russian anecdotes, like kulichki.ru). This discussion made me to do this, and I see there is a whole huge problem all over Russia: millions of immigrants from China, Korea, Vietnam. Compared to these, a handful of caucasians in Moscow is but a tiny sparkle in the overall flame. Does anyone want to write an article? mikka (t) 22:33, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Unofficial remark: Seems like you know more about his problem then we do. If you would take your time to write an artickle about this problem instead of deleting everything what hurts your feelings (or every issue you personaly are not familiar with), and harras every user(ers) you dislike it will be much appreciated. However the problem you have mentioned (prejudice against migrants from East Asia) is not a new type of phobia, but a "good" 'al Sinophobia so possibly you should visit this section at wiki and add your contribution there.

Unofficial remark:mikkalai Wrote: "I was never in my life interested in Russian politics and almost never read any Russian news in last 7 years"

So what in the world forces you file VfD and Dispute, or edit and even delete content of pages regarding issues you are not interested with (and hence are not competent about). Would it be Russian politics or Georgian/Dutch art?

[edit] Threats towards me

You may get more traction if you include an extensive account of violent crimes, intimidations, rapes and kidnappings commited by the "immigrants" against native Russian population. Where is the expose on how "Caucasians" throw out poor pensioners out their own apartments and force them to hand it over, where is the account of drug dealing, where is the account of muslim illegals building mosques on top of Russian war dead cemeteries, where is the account of Russian citizens kidnapped for slavery going back to 1970's, where is the account of "Caucasians" setting up ethnic schools in Moscow where they force out ethnic Russian students, where is all the "good stuff"? The hypocrisy and racism of the left-wing fascists has reached stupendous proportions and must be, and will be, dealt with.

By the way Russia kicked Napoleon and Hitler, not the other way around as you claim.

Anyway, I will go away from this topic for two weeks. But after that please be prepared do defend each and every word in the article. You better go and read the rules of editing in wikipedia, not only how to fight with other editors. mikka (t) 17:09, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • Questions: What do you mean by threats? As an editor you must know the exact meaning of words. Does our polite friendly suggestion above fell under cathegory of threats?

"In this particular case, my credentials from numerous contributions in category:Victims of Soviet repressions give me moral right to clean various bullshit in artciles about former Russian Empire"

First of all we will really apprecate if you will watch your tongue. Second we do not see any logic-you wrote something about Soviet repressions(which have nothing to do with a Russian empire as a matter of fact) and it gave you a right to act as an ulimate almighty master of everything what appears here regarding that part of the World? Is this your point, or we(I) misunderstood it?

"Anyway, I will go away from this topic for two weeks. But after that please be prepared do defend each and every word in the article."

If you want to discuss it, okay then. Just argue here please, instead of removing parts of artickle and waiting for our reaction, OK?

"You better go and read the rules of editing in wikipedia, not only how to fight with other editors"

Ok. If you promice to read Wikiquette we will read the rules ones again. One of the autors Amsterdam 1:06; 16-06-2005

How about you refreshing wikiquette first, from the very first items:

  • Assume good faith. It was not me who started looking some additional motives in my attitude, which is crystall clear: no unverified info in wikipedia. FUI, references to newspapers serve only as confirmations of some generalizations. But these generalizations must be presented as expert's opinions, not as wikipedia editor's opinions. Please start from finding reputable experts that can confirm the word "state-sponsored" in this article.
  • Sign and date your post. "One of the authors" is not really a signature.

From my side, I did not remove material uncommented. My comment was in edit summary. When you restored after disagreeing with me I did not go into edit wars. I simply have no time for writing much now. But after two weeks I will start seriously objecting to 80% of the article, here in the talk page.

  • About "almighty master": this is a very ridiculous claim. Did I block you? Did I threaten you in any way? Every editor is an almighty master in the sense they may request confirmations of what is written in the article. How about learning "avoid personal attacks" part of wikiquette?
  • The logic in my "Russian Empire" reference is that my history of edits clearly show that I have no history of taking a Russian side (and I am not Russian, by the way; if you know Russian language, I can tell you how an army sergeant mocked about my last name: "Kazhdoe govno konchaetsa na "o", kazhdyj govnyuk konchaetsa na "yuk"." However this did not make me russophob. I somehow saw the difference between idiots that exist in every nation and the nation itself and don't think that this funny say is an evidence that "the Russian language embeds certain stereotypes", as you have it written in the article.
  • If you don't like the b-word, I can type much longer phrases, kind of "false and misleading statements loaded with POV of the editor", although I am not sure you will like it better, since it has basically the same meaning.

mikka (t) 23:50, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • "If you don't like the b-word, I can type much longer phrases"

Please take your time to do so in a future.

Also note that we refuse to discuss our motivation to write this article; with all due respect the fact that you personally have or have not done something, does not mean that we should follow your example. So please focus on the text of "caucasophobia" article itself and not on the authors of the article. However the remark which you have mentioned above as the example of your own tolerance is, in fact, extremely chauvinistic, especcialy if it was said by superior army officer after hearing Ukrainian or Belarusian family name. For those who do not speak fluent Russian it translates like:



[edit] Russophobia

Russophobia is definitely a diagnosis of many people around here (Fisenko 04:38, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC))

Wrong, buddy. Poorly coined term: should be Ruthenophobia. :-) mikka (t) 16:24, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It is Russo phobia and it is existing term in Russian language (mostly by right wing but who cares) but I unlike caucasophobia which made it's way into English, I do not know how the prejudice against Russians is called in Eng. However the phenomena itself definitely exists: but not among Caucasians who simply are defending themselves against aggression. But the treatment of Russians as an "untermensch" during WW2,or discrimination against ethnically Russian Latvian non-citizens in contemporary Latvia are definitely an evidence of institutionalized Russo-phobia. As any other form of ethnicity related bigotry it also exists at the street level, but only solid historical facts are those above I think. It should be said though that leaving the events of Nazi occupation aside, Russians as an ethnicity rarely suffered from the "pogroms" and discrimination even in the countries where they have been a minority. But there is a clear discrimination within Russian society itself based not on the ethnical but on the social scale: prejudice against provincials and discriminative movement restrictions for inhabitants of rural land into metropolitan areas of Russia(especially among Muscovites) or discrimination of common man by Intelligentsia "elite" would be a best examples. Gabrichidze 20 : 00, June 18 2005 (UTC)
But there is a clear discrimination within Russian society itself based not on the ethnical but on the social scale: prejudice against provincials and discriminative movement restrictions for inhabitants of rural land into metropolitan areas of Russia(especially among Muscovites)
Cute. Is this why there is millions of provincials living in Moscow and working good jobs?

I think if we need to discuss whether the authors, or particularly user:Gabrichidze, is a russophobe, a place for this discussion is User talk:Gabrichidze. As for Gabrichidze's own speculations on how and where the Russian's experienced a hatred towards themselves and what name for this phenomenon is appropriate, I suggest he brings this up at talk:Russophobia which should perhaps evolve into an independent article, now being a redirect to -phobia. This article itself is controversial enough to generate lots of discussions. Looks like it is going to survive the VfD (I voted "delete"). So, hopefully, this page will help to clean it up so that it has at least some value for Wikipedia. Regards, -Irpen 18:25, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

Private note: Ell can you PLEASE set your account and signature properly. People think you are a sockpuppet Cheers, Nick

[edit] VfD

Survived: Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Caucasophobia. mikka (t) 16:07, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Afrophobia: Soviet roots

One more, rather strange factor, which played role, but I don't put it in the article. At least in my university foreign students were freed from study of the most dreaded discipline, "History of the CPSU"! This was usually the punchline: "they have money, they have our girls,... and they don't have to learn the "history of cpsu"!!!!" or "... they don't have to study materials of twenty CPSU congresses!" Funny as it is, the phrase reflected the whole set of privileges for foreign students. mikka (t) 19:02, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Afrophobic urban legend

The following urban legend circulated in nearly every university I visited during my student times (there were traditions to celebrate "Department Days", with invitations of students from the same department from universities in other cites). In student hostels, students lived 3-4 persons per room. It was obligatory to have one "Russian" per room with foreigners. A russian boy in a room with africans was very friendly: he showed them ways around, helped them with various everyday things. At a certain moment he noticed that Africans tell him to do more and more. Finally, when one of them told the Russian to brush his shoes, so the Russian told him to fuck off in his best russian mat. Next day the dean received a complaint... from Africans.... that this Russian refused to brush their shoes! It turned out that they thought the Russian student was assigned to be a house servant to them. mikka (t) 19:02, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Racism is Russia" as the name for the article

I object to this new name for purely technical reasons. The article, as it currently stands, is devoted to many ethnic prejudices in Russia of which several are directed to groups which are of the same race as Russians: Jews (chapter Racism_in_Russia#Anti-semitism_in_Russia), and people from Caucasus (chapter Racism_in_Russia#Racism_towards_peoples_of_the_Caucasus). So while certainly repugnant prejudices, these are not technically "racism". It would be more correct to call the article Ethnic prejudices in Russia (and of course such an article would be better based on solid sources rather than arbitrary picked news reports, but that's perhaps unattainable). Anyway, are there any reasons not to move this article to such or similar title? -Irpen 01:09, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

I'd say that the term "prejudice" is too mild for the topic of the article. Prejudices it is, like, Estonians speak and think slowly, Ukrainians love bacon and don't like to share it, chukchas are well,... chukchas etc. The article speaks not about "opinions" (prejudice is a groundless negative opinion), but about dislike, discrimination, hatred, i.e., attitudes which is actually covered by phobia (attitude) article I separated from the main phobia article, but was surprized by everyone wanting to delete it. It will be my first deleted aricle. Now I got it all :-) (Actually, not yet. I was never been blocked.) I'm for something like Ethnic conflicts in Russia. Let's think a bit longer. No big rush IMO. mikka (t) 04:47, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree "prejudices" may be too soft. But "Ethnic conflicts" seems too broad. The article is about poor treatment of non-Russian minorities, discrimination and sometimes violence, but the treatment mainly by "Russians" and Russian authorities of non-Russians specifically due to their being "non-Russian". The conflict between, say, Chechens and Osetins is also an "ethnic conflict in Russia", however it would not fit into the context of the article. Any other ideas? -Irpen 05:04, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
"Racism" was coined to refer to Nazi ideology (translation of German "Völkisch"), and this certainly applied to Jews. (and neo-Nazi skinheads are directly inspired by it.) "Race" in English used to have a wider range of meaning including Nordic race vs. Alpine race vs. Mediterranean race, or simply nation as in the book "History of the Irish Race". More recently the meaning has mostly narrowed to continent-level racial groupings because of the tendency in the post-WWII USA and world in general to efface conflicts between "white" groups and concentrate on conflicts with African and Asian peoples and their diasporas. However, Americans condemning current negative attitude towards Arabs in USA do not hesitate to call it "racism" even though most Arabs are technically Caucasoid. As for news reports, they are legitimate examples, although they should not be considered to imply that Russia is worse than other countries, unless they cover statistics instead of just individual incidents. By the way, what is stereotype of Chukchis? Chukchi people mentions stereotype but doesn't say what it is. --JWB 22:26, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Take a look into Russian joke#Ethnic stereotypes for more. "Chukcha" is a funny-sounding word for Russians and is often used as synonym of "dumb". There was a song, supposedly lyrical, with the line in the refrain "and choockcha in choom...", but instead people made a good laugh of it. (choom is chookcha's dwelling, kind of wigwam) mikka (t) 00:53, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Race doesn't always refer to any visually detectable differences. As the Wikipedia article says,

The term race describes populations or groups of people distinguished by different sets of 
characteristics, and beliefs about common ancestry. The most widely used human racial categories 
are based on visible traits (especially skin color, facial features and hair texture), and 
self-identification.

So in this sense, "racism" would appropriate, whereas "anti-national sentiment" is clearly inappropriate. In general usage, "anti-national sentiment" refers to not liking a particular state -- in this case, Russia. So according to the present title, the article would be about those in Russia who don't like the Russian state. Another meaning would be a preference for a local (as opposed to national) level of action in some issues: for example, an opinion that more power should be given to local governments. Lebatsnok 15:26, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Propiska and marriage

Removed:

In addition to individual bigotry, Caucasophobia is alleged to manifest itself as formalized prejudice and persecution, such as propiska laws (often likened to apartheid), and in extreme cases, official opposition to romantic and marital relationships between Slavs and ethnic Caucasians, particularly those involving Caucasian men and Slavic women. Compare with American miscegenation laws, which once forbade whites and blacks from marrying or producing children.
  • Propiska existed over 70 years. What is more, one of arguments of caucasophobs is exactly opposite: Caucasians easily bribe themselves a propiska, but it is next to impossible to register an elderly babushka from Tambov Oblast into Moscow to be cared by relatives.
  • There is no "official" opposition to marriage. But there is an opposition to loose control of fake marriages widely used to gain a propiska; and not only be Caucasians, and not only in Russia by the way.
  • Xenophobic opposition to "cross-alien" romances is no news and not at all specific to caucasophobia or even to racism. Exactly the same may be observed between two nearby villages in Kostroma Oblast. And its comparison to miscegenation laws, implying that this is an official policy, is out of place.

mikka (t) 19:27, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If a chechen marries a Russian girl it is considered multiculturlaism, if a Russian guy tries to date a chechen girl her relatives will cut off his head it is called tradition, but if Russians want to keep chechens out of Moscow that is called racism. What a sick and cruel joke modern day liberals have become.
mikka cease making discriminatory national insults. "if a Russian guy tries to date a chechen girl her relatives will cut off his head " complete discrimination and falsehood. Shame! What a sick and cruel joke modern day fascists have become.Noxchi Borz 22:15, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
It was not my remark. It is a unsigned comment. `'mikka (t) 22:26, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
My apologies . Noxchi Borz 17:48, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] An Afro Russian's Experience

  • I am an Afro Russian, My father was a Zanzibari student who met and maried my mother who is originally from a small town near Moscow. I lived in Russia until I was 10 before my family settled in Britain. I am now a British citizen. I have visited Russia nad other FSU countries for business and family reasons throughout my life.
  • I do not remember any real negative racist experiences during my Russian childhood, being more of a curiosity. Growing up in Britain however was a much less pleasant expeirience. As a teenager I was racially bullied and threatened on many occasions. On my visits to FSU countries Russia,Georgia, Ukraine and Kazakhstan I have generally encountered nothing but frienship particularly since I am a fluent Russian Speaker. I have to say that I experienced much more Racism in Continental Europe particularly Poland - how about starting a Racism in Poland Article

I am half Sri Lankan and half Russian and i am darker than most "Kavkaz" people. I agree with Afro Russian. Danil

You will also deny murders of Armenian nationals in Moscow? How about Georgian student who was killed by Neo-Nazi group in St. Pitersburg? I spoke with many georgians, chechens, ingush, armenians and they all claim the same. They were discriminated all the time and also it was unsafe for them to live in Russia. Pay attention to recent killings of Armenians in Moscow. Ldingley 20:52, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I do not agree at all with Ldingley, racism does occur in many countries, but most Russians are not racist at all. I was actually suprised to see with my own eyes how brotherly Russian people have acted to people from other countries. We must not forget that some criminals both foreign and non foreign cause problems that seem to have racist roots.

Then why are so many of them living in Russia? And why more of their people are coming to live in Russia every year? For every foreigner killed, 100 Russians are murdered by those foreigners, but the Media only report the politically correct news.
Here is BBC link to: Russian racism 'out of control'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4969296.stm

Ldingley 20:52, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1264/is_n4_v20/ai_7756645 CHECK THIS OUT. Danil <This knows that subjective negative information is used against Russia (unconsiously or conciously)>

[edit] Page move

In English "Anti-national sentiment" sounds like POV opposing it. Not sure if this is different in Russian. --JWB 21:45, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neo-Bolshevik kids picture

The picture is is misleading and irrelevant for this article. The section talks about hostility towards Caucasians in Russian society. How does a picture of National-Bolsheviks - a fringe group with neo-Stalinist ideology (BTW it was neo-Stalinist in the past since the group changes its ideology every few years)- displaying picture of an ethnic Georgian KGB leader contributes anything to this article is beyond me. Fisenko 18:50, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Russian nationalists waive communist flag. Communism as an ideology opposes nationalism. Obviously, they are not the smartest people on earth. This picture is exactly relevant and portays the reality. Please don not vandalize the artcle. Sosomk 10:45, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

What reality ? You are obviously ignorant of the subject. These people are not mainstream Russian nationalists ,its a just fringe extremist group. In any case this picture has no relation to anti-Caucasian sentiment in the Russian society, which is a topic of this section of the article. Something like this would be an appropriate image: [1] Fisenko 16:43, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The reality is that people do get attacked and killed by Russian nationalists. They don't like Nazi flags, because their ancestors probably died in the war with Nazis, but they like Commie flags. However, Communism opposes Nationalism as an ideology. So, my point is that they don't know what the heck are they doing and what they want. These kids are also nationalist who like Beria. I am Georgian and vast majority of Georgian people don't like Beria. If you are from the eastern Ukraine you might like him. Obviously, our opinions simply don't matter. Anti-Caucasian sentiment is basically a propaganda by some Russian politicians which is not planned well. That is what this picture shows. And calling ignorant somebody in an academical argument is not civil. Sosomk 06:30, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry , I never called you an ignorant person, I only said you are ignorant about this particular subject (attitudes and ideology of Russian nationalists). Vast majority of Russians don't like Beria as well. National-Bolsheviks are not part of "propaganda by some Russian politicians" but the most extreme anti-Putin group in Russia (which recently abandoned its neo-Stalinist ideology). Most Russian nationalists rarely use "Commie" flags but rather flag like this for example[2]. In any case this is not the issue here, we already have one picture of National-Bolsheviks in the article and its fine. The second picture however is totally out of contest since 90% + of Russian nationalists with anti-Caucasian sentiments not only would not admire Beria but would more likely use crimes of Beria and Stalin to further justify their hostility towards Georgians. Fisenko 16:12, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Stalin and Beria were real Russian nationalists and had nothing to do with their Georgian background. They did care or had any feelings for their country of birth. On contrary, they have contribute greatly in destruction of Georgian society, culture and loss of her territories. I guess, French should blame Corsicans for Napoleon and Austrians should be responsible for Hitler. Ldingley 16:27, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Stalin, Beria, Ordzhonikidze were not Russian nationalists but rather Soviet Communists, in case you didn't know. Fisenko 16:47, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Fisenko, I don't want to argue with you. I respect your position and would rather work with you than arguing endlessly. Yes they were communists but they had nothing to do with Georgian character, culture or identity. So it’s pointless to mention about their Georgian background. My background is Scottish/Irish/English but i feel 100% Canadian. But as I said before, I rather work and co-operate with fellow Russians on Wiki articles. So let’s end this pointless discussion. BTW can you please tell me about the history of the flag (yellow, black, white) ? Thanks Ldingley 17:35, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

This is a flag of Romanov dynasty and official flag of the Russian Empire until 1914. Russian nationalists often use this flag to show their opposition to "democratic" (meaning pro-Western/liberal) Russian elite (esp. under Yeltsin) who re-introduced white-blue-red flag after the Soviet Union collapse. For example some Wikipedians have userboxes like this :

This user is proud to be Russian

Fisenko 23:03, 28 July 2006 (UTC)



Oppose User:Fisenko and agree with Luis. Most people in the Westren World identify Stalin as Russian. Most of Fisenko's discussions are his own personal opinions than valid points and I am not gonna comment on them. In fact, I really don't care about the Russian Skinheads, let Russians worry about them. I simply don't see any difference between so-called Russian Nationalism and Soviet Union. Most Russians are very proud what hey have done during the past two centuries. It is also my opinion and I would appreciate if Fisenco does not turn red on this comment. Georgians have lots of culture than being proud of Stalin and Beria. We can give them to you as your May day present which you still celebrate and very proud of it. Sosomk 18:00, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Russian Nationalism is an ideology with little in common with Marxist-Leninist ideology of the Soviet Union. The best description of these differences can be found in Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's article The mortal danger: How misconceptions about Russia imperil America. PS May Day is celebrated as national holiday in most countries of the world exept United States, Canada and few others. In Russia May Day is concidered by most people as an extra holiday to spent on dacha, May holiday that evokes feeling of national pride in Russia is Victory Day on May 9. It was my understanding most Georgians celebrate it with pride as well. Fisenko 22:50, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't argue with you. You can be as Nationalist and proud as you want. Victory day of Russia is a holiday for Russians and not for everybody. One totalitarian government beat another one. However, I did loose my ancestors in the WWII, but the fake holiday like that is not celebrated in Georgia. Obviosly, it is a matter of opinion. Best Wishes from Georgia. Sosomk 10:50, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Once again you are mistaken. Victory Day is celebrated in Georgia on May 9, just like in Russia. [3], [4], [5], [6]. Fisenko 14:46, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

OpposeSoory, Fisenko but bunch of war veterans getting together does not mean a National holiday of Georgia. As you know Saakashvili denied Putin's invitation on May Day last year. Georgia is a democratic country unlike Russua and people don't get shot for getting together and talking about their memories of war. Sosomk 09:09, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Did you read my links ? Its an official national holyday in Georgia with Burjanadze, Saakashvili and Catalikos-patriarch adresses to veterans etc. Fisenko 15:20, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Those veteras are our citizens and we obviously care about them. However, that day is not celebrated in Georgia just like in Russia like you said. It is just a fictional day and we don't have parades and we don't burn Hitler's pictures and don't do the crap like that. Sosomk 12:58, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

You seriously think people in Russia burn Hitler's pictures on May 9 ? :) ha ha Fisenko 13:22, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they do. Sosomk 14:05, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Image:2711 small.jpg This user supports Yulia Tymoshenko

[edit] sources

most statements of fact, as well as implied associated in this article lack sources. In a few days time I will tag and then remove all unsourced info. Relevant policies: WP:V, WP:RS Dsol 12:43, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I added a lot of tags. I realize there are some sources given, but with such controvertial material, each statement must be carefully sourced, and when the source is less than 100% authoritative, its identity must be made explicit in the statement of fact. I will check the given sources to see which facts can be sourced. After that time, though not sooner than 3 days hence, I will begin removing unsourced material. Dsol 17:31, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Cool down here. Unless you have serious objections to some statements, tagging every second sentence is rather frivolous. In this way you can litter 80% of wikipedia. Unless you state reasonable doubts in truth of some phrases, destroying an article on a whim in 3 days is bad idea. Wikipedians have real life, you know, they are not going to jump thru your hoop right away. Even votes for deletion take 5 days. `'mikka (t) 21:13, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
The agreed-upon criteria is verifiability and reliable sources or a statement can be removed, unless a statement is obvious. If you think these policies are "frivolous" then go say so on the policy talk pages. I have lived in Russia myself and none of the statements I tagged are obvious. I have given much more than 3 days due to travel but soon will begin removing and rewriting. Dsol 06:13, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hitler salute and heil hitler

both are verified to have occured at russian nationalist rally in [times article|]

please do not delete this from the article anymore as it is a proven truth —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pz9999 (talk • contribs) 13:45, 17 November 2006.

[edit] Title of article

The term "anti-national sentiment" makes no sense semantically and, consequently, does not convey the focus of this article, which is racism. I've read that the purpose for changing the title from "Racism in Russia" was to allow for coverage of a broader topic; but the title "Xenophobia in Russia" will better accomplish that goal by using a well-known term to avoid confusion.

Another concern of mine is that the article generally avoids the term "racism" (it only appears once in the prose). What may seem like a minor issue of semantics is actually quite serious, because it conceals the fact that unadulterated racism and neo-Nazism exist in Russia, and that they have reached proportions far greater than in any other European country.

-- WGee 05:21, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Xenophobia/racism strongly disagreed. "Nationalism", "ethnic prejudices" may be. Please suggest other versions, but please don't move without consensus. The article "conceals" nothing. In wikipedia we avoid slapping strong words in main titles. Redirects are welcome. `'mikka 21:54, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
The article is clearly about racism and xenophobia. The title is an euphemism that IMO should not be tolerated: imagine someone calling Nazism an "anti-Jewish sentiment" (a nice little sentiment, ain't it?). There's no reason to be sentimental about racism: let's leave this to the racists. Lebatsnok 10:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] So outdated - now there are mass terrorist acts and profilic serial killers

Things such as:

Terrorism convictions:

  • The Moscow Regional Court on April 10 sentenced two former defense industry workers to 18 and 19 years in prison for their role in the 2005 bombing of a Grozny-to-Moscow train, the Moscow Times reported on April 11. Mikhail Klevachyov was sentenced to 19 years and Vladimir Vlasov to 18 years in a maximum-security prison after being convicted on terrorism charges for planting a homemade bomb on train tracks in the Moscow region. Forty people were injured in the June 2005 blast. Investigators found nationalist books in the defendants’ apartments. [8]

And what article is about - "jokes"?

Also Nazbols are not REALLY racist. A picture of an actual Neo-Nazi would be so much better. --HanzoHattori 15:00, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

On the night of 24 November 2003, a mysterious fire in a university student dormitory left over 40 foreign students dead. Russian media later cited a police source as saying all the doors leading to the fire escapes had been blocked[1]. The fire services blame an electrical fault, however students blamed arsonists; the previous night, they said, two skinheads had been chased from the area following an attempted arson attack[2]. There has been no police investigation. The home countries of the dead and injured are: China, Vietnam, Bangladesh, Ecuador, Ethiopia, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Angola, Ivory Coast, Tahiti, Morocco, Kazakhstan, Dominican Republic, Lebanon, Peru, Malaysia, Mongolia, India, Nigeria, Tanzania and Sri Lanka. In addition, Palestinians were also listed.[2] --HanzoHattori 23:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Also

UN EXPERT WARNS OF RACIST AND XENOPHOBIC 'DYNAMIC' IN RUSSIA.

A United Nations expert on racism, Doudou Diene, told a meeting of the Geneva-based UN Human Rights Council on June 11 that there is a "deep dynamic of racism and xenophobia in Russian society which articulates itself in the spread of racist crimes notably perpetrated by neo-Nazi groups," AFP reported. "The perpetuation of racist violence and xenophobia constitutes the most serious threat...to the democratic process in the Russian Federation," Diene said, adding that a "profound social and economic crisis" is feeding "the ideology of nationalism." AFP quoted Russia's delegate to the UN Human Rights Council, Valery Loshchinin, as calling Diene's report "partisan and politicized." Loshchinin added, "We don't claim to be perfect, but to speak of a social and economic crisis in Russia when the situation is stable is exaggerated." Aleksandr Brod, director of the Moscow Bureau for Human Rights, told Interfax on June 5 that about 120 racially motivated attacks took place in Russia between January and May of this year, in which 31 people were killed and at least 120 injured. According to Brod, 21 people were killed and 42 injured in Moscow, three died and 19 were injured in St. Petersburg, and 22 were injured in Nizhegorod Oblast. Natives of Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Armenia, and African countries were the most frequent targets of such attacks. Brod said there has been a "sharp growth" in the number of racially motivated attacks in Russia over the last three years, with seven people killed and around 100 injured during the first half of 2004, 10 killed and 200 injured in the first half of 2005 and 17 killed and 130 injured in the first half of 2006. The daily "Vremya novostei" reported on May 28 that Artur Ryno, an 18-year-old student at an icon-painting school who was detained in mid-April on suspicion of murdering a 46-year-old Armenian, Karen Abramyan, in Moscow, told investigators that he and a friend -- Pavel Skachevsky, also 18 -- killed 37 people in racially motivated attacks since August 2006. JB

RFE/RL NEWSLINE Vol. 11, No. 107, Part I, 12 June 2007

If anyone cares. --HanzoHattori 14:05, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sentimentalism

If there's no "anti-Russian sentiment" anymore (in the new trend in Wikipedia), I think this one should be changed accordingly back to Racism in Russia too. --HanzoHattori 11:00, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree! Mariah-Yulia 16:46, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd support it too. How about Rasism in modern Russia ? Also the content of the article on such a sensitive topic should be later changed to strictly follow the scope defined in the title. We should also pay attention that everything is properly referenced and specifically POV pushing is avoided as much as possible. Boy, am I getting so naive again ... ? Anyway, we should make sure that the topic is not too broad. Let's wait a while to see other opinions/options and then file a WP:RM. --Lysytalk 16:56, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Rasism in modern Russia is a good idea, you are right about the references! Mariah-Yulia 17:11, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Since there were no other suggestions and everyone involved seems to support the rename, it's a non-controversial move. Let's simply rename it and not waste on formal voting. --Lysytalk 08:26, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite - comment and some proposals

A lot of things missed. For example, bombing of the Moscow market (numerous fatalities) and the bombing of the train from Grozny, or the teenager Artur Ryno who told the police earlier this year he killed 37 people after arrested for one murder.

The article is such a mess I don't even know if there's included this dormitory fire in which dozens of foreign students died. (Probably not.)

Recently (this week) the police arrested the group who executed some kidnapped people and videotaped it (there are also numerous articles related to the subject linked there, including one titled "Russian racism 'out of control'").

Also of course there is the police violence linked to the deadly attacks, as in this incident. (Oddly enough, the police brutality article and category is seemingly about the USA & UK only.) Some of the crimes commited by the troops serving in Chechnya also appear to be racially-motivated. --HanzoHattori 12:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Do you want me to rewrite this article? I'd do start this generally anew, with three general headers dealing with the hostilities against the Jews (short, there's an article on this), against the Caucasian ethnic minorities, and against the foreigners in general (students and migrant workers). --HanzoHattori 12:06, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I would support this. But a question remains: can the ethnically motivated attitudes and violence be classified as "racism"?Biophys 15:20, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
It seems that BBC journalists and Amnesty International do consider this as "racism". See Racist attacks that stain Russia, By James Rodgers, BBC News, Russian racism 'out of control', and Russian Federation. Violent racism out of control. However, it would be probably better to rename this article as Xenophobia and racism in modern Russia.Biophys 17:16, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
"In this Convention, the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life." UN International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, NEW YORK 7 March 1966Biophys 17:22, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality

I've nominated this article to be checked for neutrality, because it makes Russians seem bad and paints the minorities as the victim, mentions nothing about immigrants' racism against Russians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Koliak2991 (talk • contribs) 01:16, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "White Christian Russians"

There is a section in the article that briefly mentions the beheading of a Tajik and a Dagestani, saying that it was perpetrated by "white Christian Russians". I am not white, nor Christian, nor Russian yet I found this extremely offensive. Also, it shouldn't be in the article. Here's why:

1. the use of the word "white": People from the Caucuses (regardless of whatever nonsense skinheads or a narrow-minded Russian nationalists spew, or any attempt to prove the contrary) are by and large white. Dagestanis are white. Period. End of discussion. This is a white-on-white attack, though, admittedly, motivated by ethnic differences (not racial). That's first. 2. Second, "Christian": Wow, did the writer of this section know the perpetrators so well that he knows what beliefs they hold? Did the perpetrators wear a cross? Is there at least SOME evidence showing that they're Christian? No. In fact, neo-Nazis tend to be anti-Christian. Slavic neo-Nazist are either atheist/agnostic or "pagan", mostly Slavic pagan. They see Christian teachings contradicting the basis of Nazism. This leads me to another point - the use of the word "Russian". 3. There is no concrete evidence that it was done by "White Christian Russians". The perpetrators wore masks, and their faces was never revealed. In fact, it is quite possible that the beheading, whether real or not, was done by a "caucasian" to put Russians in bad light. However, I can't vouch for the veracity of this statement. I saw the video (a simple google search will show you), and trust me, there is no way this was fake. But my only concern here is that there is concrete proof that the beheading was carried out by a Russian.

Therefore, I am changing it to "alleged neo-Nazis", which is COMPLETELY different from "White Christian Russians". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.212.72.104 (talk) 06:38, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I understand that the intentions are good, but one can only refer to native Caucasians as white to the same extent as, say, to Turks or to Palestinians. --Humanophage (talk) 01:30, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
i agree, i did further research on it and i figured that many of them are not 'white' even in the Western sense of the world. HOWEVER, some of them are indeed white, check this site out: http://robertlindsay.blogspot.com/2007/08/are-dagestanis-and-tajiks-white.html (it's a blog, so not quite 'citable', but regardless, there are some interesting information there) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.212.72.104 (talk) 09:43, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Northern Caucasians are white, in fact the first registered white humans on earth. Transcaucasians - from the southern caucasians - have a darker skin. Nervertheless Neo Nazis in Russia consider all the Caucasians dark. Why? Because they're stupid. 62.163.232.175 (talk) 15:14, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Against Poles

Poles have also been victims of ethnic attacks in Russia. Additionally there is some heavy anti-polish literature by nationalist circles published in Russia, including political ideologists from Eurasianism movement for example, who believe destruction of Poland is one of core goals of Russia.--Molobo (talk) 22:21, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This article one-sided, anti-white, anti-Russian

While it presents the very few facts of attacks against the odious non-white invaders into Russia, this articles completely ignores the numerous crimes and atrocities committed by the so called "immigrants". While we can always blame the media for not reporting on those in their "news", and therefore depriving wikipedians of sources of reference, it is still the responsibility of the contributors to find sources that would make this article less one-sided. One may look at official government crime statistics and patriotic press to find the gruesome tales of non-Russian crimes against the native Slavic population. Let alone all the flood of drugs that the fathers of Tajik girls bring to Russia. Did anybody care to ask, how can a Tajik, father of the Tajik girl, be renting a $200 dollars apartment while he was only making $150 at his "official" job? One good thing out of all of this is a firm proof that liberalism's grip is tight on the throat of the West and it will suffocate it soon enough and prevent it from being duped any longer into projecting its violence onto other societies. Albeit, we'll all miss the great Western civilization's positive moments. Keep it up wikipedians, remain in your blissful idiocy. --Ram2006 (talk) 02:59, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I stopped reading at "the non-white invaders into Russia".

[edit] Hostility towards Caucasians/Muslims

1. "Caucasophobia is a neologism, introduced in the Russian and Caucasian media (as Кавказофобия)." - where are the soursce and the list of concred newspapers. TV channels etc.? 2. "Members of these ethnicities are often depicted as dangerous savages who are a threat to public safety."- What does the author mean "often"? how many times are they depicted as a dangerous savages? Any sources? If u have no sourses, please dont write "often". I propose "sometimes" instead of " often" 3. "Following the Russian-Georgian crisis of September and October 2006, Russian authorities have rounded up Georgians and demanded that schools draw up lists of pupils with Georgian last names."- Russian authorities ve rounded up Georgian for the purpose of a discovering illegal immigrants ( look http://www.lenta.ru/news/2006/10/06/chase/_Printed.htm - on russian) .A discovering of illegal immigrants is a duty of Immigration Service in all countries.Authourities have a right to take any legal measures ( a drawing up lists of last names is not prohibited legal step) in oder to discover and to deport illegal immigrants.It s a worldwide legal practice. According that, activity of russian authorites cant be recognized as a racism.

4. The authorities have also taken other actions that have led protesters in Moscow to draw a parallel between modern Russian initiatives with Nazi Germany's initiatives to round up Jews.[8] It s the uncorrect comparison whithout any cases,sources ( http://www.euronews.net/create_html.php?article=384022&lng=1 is dead). That s why I delete it right now.

Hostility towards Central Asians/Muslims

5 "Despite overwhelming evidence against them" Does anybody see the list of evidence?If no, please dont write this. Where is the source of information?

6. " by a jury which consisted entirely of ethnic Russians" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Saint_Petersburg#Ethnicity - 84.72% of Saint Petersburg's population are russian. Is it abnormal that. the jury consisted of ethic Russian? 79.126.50.5 (talk) 18:09, 13 May 2008 (UTC)MPB

[edit] Hostility towards Caucasians/Muslims

1. Caucasophobia is a neologism, introduced in the Russian and Caucasian media (as Кавказофобия)." - where are the soursce and the list of concred newspapers. TV channels etc.?

2. "Members of these ethnicities are often depicted as dangerous savages who are a threat to public safety."- What does the author mean "often"? how many times are they depicted as a dangerous savages? Any sources? If u have no sourses, please dont write "often". I propose "sometimes" instead of " often"

3. "Following the Russian-Georgian crisis of September and October 2006, Russian authorities have rounded up Georgians and demanded that schools draw up lists of pupils with Georgian last names." - Russian authorities ve rounded up Georgian for the purpose of a discovering illegal immigrants ( look http://www.lenta.ru/news/2006/10/06/chase/_Printed.htm - on russian) .A discovering of illegal immigrants is a duty of Immigration Service in all countries.Authourities have a right to take any legal measures ( a drawing up lists of last names is not prohibited legal step) in oder to discover and to deport illegal immigrants.It s a worldwide legal practice. According that, in that case,activity of russian authorites cant be recognized as a racism.

4. The authorities have also taken other actions that have led protesters in Moscow to draw a parallel between modern Russian initiatives with Nazi Germany's initiatives to round up Jews.[8] It s the uncorrect comparison whithout any cases,sources ( http://www.euronews.net/create_html.php?article=384022&lng=1 is dead). That s why I delete it right now.

Hostility towards Central Asians/Muslims

5. "Despite overwhelming evidence against them" Does anybody see the list of evidence?If no, please dont write this. Where is the source of information?

6. " by a jury which consisted entirely of ethnic Russians" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Saint_Petersburg#Ethnicity - 84.72% of Saint Petersburg's population are russian. Is it abnormal that. the jury consisted of ethic Russian? 79.126.50.5 (talk) 18:17, 13 May 2008 (UTC)MPB