Talk:Quackwatch/Archive 5

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Peer Review as Article of Faith

I've moved this discussion to Wikipedia_talk:Reliable sources. Please respond there instead. This discussion was split up since someone decided to post it in both places, when it shouldn't have been posted on this talk page at all: it makes absolutely no reference to the content of the article, and should be discussed in a more general area where more people will see it. --Philosophus T 07:49, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Philosophus: Hi. Thanks for your thoughts. It was posted on this page because of the seemingly endless discussions having to do with peer review status -- which, in the light of these recent meta-analyses, have little import. It was cross-posted to Reliable Sources and a couple other locations as a courtesy to the editorial groups there, who may not be aware of (apparently were not aware of, as far as I could determine) these publications. I am not interested in participating on those other pages because I do not have time for it; they can do with the information as they see fit. I AM interested in this page at this time, and since "peer review" was such a hot issue, it was manifestly relevant. If you want to make a radical change such as removing a whole section and putting it somewhere else, please drop us a line first, OK? Thanks! -- Alan2012 19:30, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

This isn't a question of interest in pages. This page is for discussion of the Quackwatch article, and despite threads on some talk pages, it isn't for discussion of Quackwatch, peer review, or anything other somewhat-related topic. Crossposting this splits the discussion, angers other editors, and makes it difficult to read talk pages that are meant for specific topics. The appropriate place to discuss this is the WP:RS talk page, and therefore I moved this after discussing it with other editors and notifying you. --Philosophus T 01:35, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
"This isn't a question of interest in pages. This page is for discussion of the Quackwatch article,"
. . . . yes, and I explained how it was relevant to the discussion of the Quackwatch article. If you have a problem with my explanation, please post it.
" and despite threads on some talk pages, it isn't for discussion of Quackwatch, peer review, or anything other somewhat-related topic."
. . . . ditto. The purpose was to set editors' minds at ease with respect to their apparent obsession with "peer review", which is quite unnecessary for reasons mentioned.
"Crossposting this splits the discussion,"
. . . . whatever. The post was intended for THIS group, primarily. It was posted as a courtesy to a few other places that might need the information. They can have their own discussion of it, if they wish.
"angers other editors,"
. . . . 1) why on earth would they be "angered"? 2) if they are -- i.e. if they really cannot stand a single, polite, short, well-intentioned, informative post about a subject that is directly relevant to their pages -- then... well, then I don't know what to say. Hard to say anything that is not an insult.
" and makes it difficult to read talk pages that are meant for specific topics."
. . . . why? If you really are not interested in the matter, then skip over it.
"The appropriate place to discuss this is the WP:RS talk page, and therefore I moved this after discussing it with other editors and notifying you."
. . . . perhaps would have been better to discuss it with me and notify them?
-- Alan2012 14:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Philosophus, for your benefit, and for the benefit of the unnamed editors with whom you (supposedly) conferred, here are a few quotes from these talk pages emphasizing the (claimed, but unsubstantiated) importance of peer review, or simply assuming, without question, that it IS important. (And, incidentally, this error is made by the anti-QW crowd as often as the pro-QW folks. It is simply assumed, by all, that "peer review" is a big honking deal, and the sine qua non of scientific reliability and veracity, when in truth there is no clear scientific evidence for this idea.) Mind you, these are just a few of the many, many references to peer review; consider them representative. Sorry that this is taking so much space, but you insisted...
ITEM: "Wikipedia relies heavily upon the established literature created by scientists, scholars and researchers around the world and The material has been thoroughly vetted by the scholarly community. This means published in peer-reviewed sources, and reviewed and judged acceptable scholarship by the academic journals. The fact that the SSE is regarded as "fringe" by the scientific community affects all of us in WP, because WP doesn't want to be fringe and articulates itself as such. The real bottom line is, let's get better criticism. After all, it is everywhere out there... Shot info 23:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC)"
ITEM: "if you want scientific credibility, you publish in scientific credible journals. If you don't you end up with the questions I am pointing out. It isn't a strawman argument. The exact reasons of why Kauffman selected this journal are irrelevant, the fact is he did and hence the credibility of the paper is questioned. This isn't a fictional reality, it's reality. Hence why WP:RS says Wikipedia relies heavily upon the established literature created by scientists, scholars and researchers around the world and The material has been thoroughly vetted by the scholarly community. This means published in peer-reviewed sources, and reviewed and judged acceptable scholarship by the academic journals (which I have pointed out previously). Shot info 02:35, 12 January 2007 (UTC)"
ITEM: "Wikipedia relies heavily upon the established literature created by scientists, scholars and researchers around the world and The material has been thoroughly vetted by the scholarly community. This means published in peer-reviewed sources, and reviewed and judged acceptable scholarship by the academic journals. So, got another strawman for me to tilt at? Shot info 02:38, 13 January 2007 (UTC)"
ITEM: Kauffman's piece has no credibility due to the fact it is published in JSE. You cannot prove that it is "based on research". The very credibility of Kauffman's work is at question here. You are assuming it is "based on research". I am suggesting that with the lack of peer review at the SSE, this is a bad assumption to make and one that WP:RS tells us not to use. In conclusion, in order for Kauffman's article to be "based on research", we must assume that the SSE is a credible organization that will force it's authors to engage in robust peer review system. It is obvious that the SSE do not, so Kauffman's paper cannot be credibly stated as "based on research". Remember, you want this to be helpful to the casual reader. The causal reader reading this article will believe that Kauffman's article is more robust than what it is and the JSE editoralising will encourage them to believe they are a credible organisation when many (including the CSI) do not agree. Shot info 04:05, 13 January 2007 (UTC)"
ITEM: "I find your dismissal of where something is published puzzling. It goes to the heart of credibility and WP:RS. If Kauffman's work was self published (like what you have criticized QW over..) then we would be all over it. Kauffman's criticism is no different to Bolen's. It is not peer reviewed (or rather, under peer reviewed). The only difference between it and Bolen's, is that it looks more scientific. It has a lot more references which helps it appear more impressive. These references may, or may not exist. Without been exhaustive, we just don't know. This is why we have peer review. Without it, Kauffman can be wrong. Hence it does not deserve to mislead the casual reader. Shot info 04:22, 13 January 2007 (UTC)"
-- Alan2012 14:58, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

"Quotes"

Thees are "quotes" made by Kauffman in the correct order: Kauffman stated in a disclaimer that "any recommendations... are based on studies published in peer-reviewed scientific journals. I am not an M. D. and cannot engage in the practice of medicine."

Do not tamper with the quotes. GigiButterfly 21:20, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Certainly agree with that. As long as we are only quoting what is relevant here (we can paraphrase for brevity too). Levine2112 21:23, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
GB, Are you saying we should quote the entire disclaimer? --Dematt 21:33, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I just removed this addition by GB:
Kauffman cites literature to support his conclusions.[1]
What does that mean? The citation provided doesn't state this, as far as I can tell.
Constructively, GB, may I recommend reading WP:OR and WP:RS. If you truly are new to the editing scene, then the learning the policies here will help you out tremendously.Levine2112 22:04, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I just realized that GB is a newbie! Welcome GB, if you have any questions about any of my edits, you can also reach me on my talk page! :) --Dematt 22:31, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
GB's latest machination of this point stated: "Kauffman cited references to support his literature." I am not sure what "his literature" refers to. Additionally, GB provided Kauffman's review as the source of this statement. As the review doesn't state (to my knowledge) that Kauffman cites references to support his literature, then that statement is GB's assessment of Kauffman's review. GB's assessment = Original Research. Hence, a WP:OR violation. Levine2112 22:52, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
GB and Levine both warned for WP:3RR. (I think GB has 5 and Levine 3 in the past hour(!).) Let's keep this under control, please. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 23:02, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
But as you can plainly see, I am correct that her assessment of Kauffman's review creates an obvious WP:OR violation. I am trying extremely hard here to explain this to GigiButterfly (I wouldn't bite the newbie, you know). But I invite you, Arthur (or anyone else here), to step up, revert her edit and do a better job explaining WP:OR to her than I have done. If she is in violation of WP:3RR as you suggest, perhaps we should report her? Levine2112 23:15, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree, but I'clast asked me not to edit during this cooling off period, so I will respect that. Maybe he will "step up" and make the edit? TheDoctorIsIn 23:22, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
That's great. But can anyone explain to me what GB means with: "Kauffman cited references to support his literature"? Gigi? I'clast? TheDoctorIsIn? Dematt? How about Kauffmann? Are you out there? ;-) Levine2112 23:26, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Is this vandalism under our noses

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Quackwatch&diff=102779963&oldid=102774375 —Preceding unsigned comment added by GigiButterfly (talk • contribs)

It isn't vandalism. Please review Wikipedia policy which I'clast has afforded you. Then read his reasoning for deleting the passage. Next step, is to discuss his reasoning here (not to start edit wars). Make sense? Levine2112 23:49, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

"Superfluous quote material"

Kauffman's own caveat was reverted despite it coming immediately after his discussion of "peer review" sources. What is superfluous about him pointing out that his review cannot be construed as medical advice while those who write for QW are actually licensed physicians? --ScienceApologist 00:08, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Frankly I thought it was a no-brainer[2]. For one, as *very* common "boiler plate" language, it is not especially notable. It's absence may be even more notable, say for previously licensed physicians whose assertions really might be confused with "medical advice". We should so spam every health and medical related article that *isn't* "medical advice" where the is no serious allegation of [| UPM] (which would also concern WP:BLP) that has a standard disclaimer?--I'clast 00:40, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
You hit the nail on the head there, I'clast. At least Kauffman puts in that bolierplate language (I have noted that he does this on other research papers as well). What about this statement: "Kauffman cited references to support his literature"? I still would appreciate an explanation of what this is trying to mean and where this is cited. Otherwise, we should delete it. Levine2112 00:52, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
If you are proud of the boilerplate language, why remove it? --ScienceApologist 01:56, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
In an encyclopedia? This is silly, you waste the readers' time & attention span, or possibly seek to imply something, like UPM.--I'clast 02:05, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't buy it. He is explicitly stating he is not partaking in the forbidden fruit of UPM. Unless you can justify with impunity that any mention of MD status is an open invitation to such speculation, you're going to have to do better than censoring for the sake of preventing readers from conjecturing that the man is outright lying. More than this, the "space" argument really holds no water. Compared to the rest of the quote we include from Kauffman, these dozen words are a pittance. --ScienceApologist 02:08, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
No.--I'clast 02:14, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Kauffman cites many references to support his literature.

The disclaimer is notable. You do not want people to read the diclaimer. Suppression of information is going on here.—Preceding unsigned comment added by GigiButteryfly (talk • contribs)

GigiButterfly, please respect WP:AGF. As far as the statement goes, wouldn't "Kauffman cites many references in support of his findings" make more sense. That, at least, is obvious. What you are implying is an opinion you formed in your assessment which is a clear WP:OR violation.
The disclaimer is fine, but it isn't really the meat of this article and I question the disclaimers' notability. Levine2112 01:11, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Criticism

The criticism section is way way too long. Unless someone can explain to me the reason for the length then it is undo weight to that section. We need to be responsible editors. I think the section should be shortened. The criticism section is about half the article. This is wrong. This is undo weight. We should only keep the notable criticism and remove the remainder. GigiButterfly 01:04, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

There are no criticism ceilings or floors on Wikipedia. Certainly, we can weigh proportionality and percentages of article space used by criticism, but there are articles out there with a higher ratio of criticism-to-praise than this one. (I'd conservatively esitmate that only a quarter is criticism now). Don't forget that Quackwatch itself is a very critical site (which often publishes its own criticisms right on their site). Criticism here is to be expected and is completely warranted. The amount we have now is pretty, but if you want to cut down might I suggest you cut out inanities such as: "Kauffman cited references to support his literature". Levine2112 01:15, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I reverted your Totally Disputed tag as it is unwarranted. There is already a POV tag at the top of the article. Your edits are becoming disruptive. I suggest that you take a cooling down period and read up on Wikipedia policy. As a newbie, it will be most helpful. Thank you. Levine2112 01:23, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

The criticism section is an attack page because it is way too long. It is unjustified to have such a long length.

It should be shortened to about half its length. The long length is undo weight compared to the rest of the article. I see no reason to have half the article being a criticism section. GigiButterfly 01:36, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Is this just your opinion? Or are you citing specific Wikipedia policy? (On a personal, I would just like to say how much I appreciate your command over Wikipedia editing codes. For a newbie, you sure learned quickly how to do multi-level formating, insert warning templates and tags. Usually, these skills takes a month of editing for most newbies to learn. Nice work.) Levine2112 01:37, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Considering that GigiButterfly is mentioning Undue weight by name, albeit incorrectly spelled, I would expect that the intention was to cite specific policy. --Philosophus T 05:17, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not pleased with the section, but it isn't a complete disaster or attack page. It is currently a list of quotations by various people, which is certainly rather unusual for a criticism section in a Wikipedia article, and in my opinion isn't the proper way to do a criticism section, as it makes the text too disorganized, with ideas repeated multiple times by different critics. Additionally, there is an undue weight problem with just listing quotes from each critic (in addition to it being contrary to WP:NOT) - I don't think that each critic's position on their own is notable enough to justify giving so much space. Collecting the positions of critics could alleviate this problem, and present a much shorter and more readable section while still giving the same information and being just as well sourced and strong of a section. --Philosophus T 05:17, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Sounds good. Looking forward to more suggestions on how to consolidate the criticisms without compromising the critics' positions. Levine2112 05:23, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
A more encyclopedic method would be to summarize it all in some beautiful prose, including the essential phrases from the quotes with refs. The references would then include the personal identities of the critics (without all the vanity info) and the links to the quotes themselves, where people can go to find the context. Where accusations are the same, diffs to several critics who repeat them could be included, but let's limit it to those we already have. If others need to be added later, we can certainly discuss it here, since that may be meritorious. The criticisms section should definitely not be deleted, just made more encyclopedic, rather than a list. It should be possible to summarize it in a couple paragraphs. It would sure be nice if there were some criticism from mainstream sources, instead of so much ad hominem stuff. -- Fyslee 09:15, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Fyslee has a point. The problem is that those editors who would like to see the QW article as hagiographic advertisment over the heroism of QW and its founder disrupt any attempt to make a synthesis of the variuos critical quotes. Any attempt to write a narrative text would be deleted by these editors as "WP:OR" or "editorializing". MaxPont 15:19, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
True. I think it works both ways on this one. IOWs, it looks as though there has been a consensus that the glowing part is in the beginning and the bad part is in the end. This apparently neutralizes the article. I think the only other real option is to write the entire article NPOV sentence by sentence from the beginning. Hmmm, anybody up for that:) --Dematt 15:28, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
That sounds like a nice but impossible dream for most controversial articles, but if at the least each section was written in a prose style, it would be nicer. I don't recall that there has been an attempt with the criticisms section, but I can't trust my memory. I'm a Quackwatch fan, and it was my suggestion to try a prose style, so I'm certainly open to giving it a try. Let the critics start working on it here and then we can all try to get it into a reasonably NPOV form and place it in the article. I think there are enough of us here from both POV who understand NPOV enough to manage that. -- Fyslee 17:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
A major problem is also the notability of the critics. For example, the Journal of Scientific Exploration is a borderline crank journal, and the criticism should be portrayed as such. Moreover, many criticisms are actually just personal opinions sourced to people's personal websites. While these individuals may not be entirely `anonymous', it not clear in what respect their criticisms of Quackwatch should be considered notable enough to include in the article. Are we to include a paragraph on every personal opinion offered on the topic of `alternative medicine' and those who try to identify and combat it? Rosenkreuz 15:58, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Rosenkreuz posting proves that it is impossible to write a narrative NPOV text in an encyclopedic style when there is extreme controversy about almost every sentence and statement and zero willingness to compromise among the Quackfans. I put 90% of the blame on those who want to deify Quackwatch. MaxPont 18:11, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
That is a problem with all articles, for sure. I think all we can do is cite the source according to it's type, primary, secondary and tertiary, with peer reviewed being best (though as Alan pointed out even that has it's problems). Otherwise we have to draw an arbitrary line - and there are no guidelines for that. So consensus seems to be our only method at this point. The only thing that can make it fair as far as NPOV is "what's good for the goose is good for the gander." --Dematt 16:23, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure my response here will illustrate MaxPont's point beautifully, but I will comment nonetheless. Let's not forget that Quackwatch itself is essentially just a collection of opinions sourced to Stephen Barrett's personal website. Being guilty of confirmation bias (and based on Rosenkreuz assessment above), QW shouldn't be considered a reliable source of criticism either. Levine2112 18:23, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
True, but that does not mean we can't cite them. Some of the articles are opinion and need to be noted as such as well as some being peer reviewed by reliable sources. IOWs, if this subject was about peer reviewed and researched information, I don't think it would be appropriate to give someone elses opinion on it unless it was peer reviewed as well. It is just a matter of digging through and finding out how we can cite them. We just have to realize that if we choose to use someones opinion, we have to understand that another opinion has just as much right to be expressed. Eventually, we should have all relevant PoVs covered, right?. --Dematt 18:37, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely. If you allow one person's opinion to stand, then everyone's opinion should stand. And since Quackwatch is essentially a collection of opinions - there is no peer-review there - all critical opinions should be allowed here as well. (Barrett even posts the worst examples from his critics at the bottom of many of his opinion pieces.) Then again, if we don't allow just anyone's opinions to stand here, then perhaps we should rethink how we include Quackwatch's opinions in other articles. Levine2112 18:45, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I think that QW is basically a forum of posted articles that can certainly be cited on WP in individual articles, like a resource list for scientific sceptics. Each one considered on its merits individually. There is nothing wrong with that. Each opinion would have to be presented NPOV, I guess. Lot of work. Then we treat all criticism sections like that, including this one. --Dematt 19:41, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
JoshuaZ just removed 2 or 3 bits of criticism citing that they "are not notable and who seem to be mainly using their personal webpages and nothing else". I think their notability can be questioned... but couldn't the same be said for Quackwatch? This is basically a personal webpage of opinions citing only the research which supports their opinions. I feel that if Drs. Burton Goldberg and Ray Sahelian's opinions - both highly notable in their field (just look at their CV and bios) - can be removed from here, then why shouldn't Quackwatch's opinions be removed from other articles on Wikipedia? Levine2112 20:46, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
See among other issues WP:WEB. Quackwatch is a very notable organization. As usual, how notable something is is determined by how many independent sources find it notable. Goldberg and Sahelian have no one saying anything about them. In contrast, see the long section in this article about organizations that have recognized quackwatch. JoshuaZ 20:50, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest that you take a look at Sahelian's credentials and bio and then reconsider. Aside from being a best-selling author and having one of the top websites going dealing with nutritional supplements, Dr. Sahelian has been seen on television programs including NBC Today, NBC Nightly News, CBS This Morning, Dateline NBC, and CNN, quoted by countless major magazines such as Newsweek, Modern Maturity, Health, and newspapers including USA Today, Los Angeles Times, Washington Post, and Le Monde (France). Millions of radio listeners nationwide hear him discuss the latest research on health. Many of his books have been translated into several languages, including Japanese, Korean, Italian, German, Russian, and Chinese.
Burton Goldberg is also a best-selling author. I can't speak to his notability beyond that though. Levine2112 21:49, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Hear hear! The criticism section is more to my liking now. It was indeed far far too long, and contained mostly just ad hominems (pointing out why the site is biased, which is okay to mention but seems irrelevant in the end since accuracy is what matters most) --Havermayer 06:17, 4 February 2007 (UTC).

Thanks, it was not easy, but I think it turned out okay and a good example for other articles as well. ---- Dēmatt (chat) 13:48, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

contests consensus

After reading that whole Kauffman article (yawn) it appears that we might be creating OR with this:

We need a source to back this up. If it is from the cited article, it appears to be WP:OR. I think the only negative thing we can really say about this guy is that he may be Barrett's only competition. He does say something like that in the article. But, I am open to some clarification. --Dematt 04:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't have his book but i would expect it to be addressed in there:
Joel Kauffman, Malignant Medical Myths: Why Medical Treatment Causes 200,000 Deaths in the USA each Year and How to Protect Yourself. Infinity Publishing (January 30, 2006) ISBN 0-7414-2909-8
Does anyone have easy access to a copy? David D. (Talk) 04:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes.--I'clast 05:03, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I rewrote a previous summary sentence to more neutrally point out that this guy does not agree with the common understanding of many doctors (and the atorvastatin salesmen) about the subject, although I have previously pointed out[3] that he seems to be more or less in line with the Baylor College of Medicine's Lipids Online site on current understandings of the CVD researchers. Satisfying both the QW faithful and their skeptics about the best wording on this seems an onerous task.--I'clast 05:31, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Ha ha! I'clast, concerning your last sentence above, you have my sympathies! But then again, no one ever claimed editing here is a dance on roses, except maybe on uncontroversial articles. -- Fyslee 09:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I'll take your word for it and as I don't want to hurt myself trying to think of another way of saying it that probably won't pass easily, I'll accept that just by using the title of his book as being "contesting medical consensus". Thanks for clearing that up for me. Though if we want to keep this from recurring, maybe we should cite it as a reference. --Dematt 14:07, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I haven't really been following this discussion, so if I've misunderstood the drift here, just ignore this. I think that the fact that Kauffman is an active member of The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics says something about him "thinking outside the box." He is of course not alone, but their POV is not a part of dietary or medical consensus yet....;-) If and when it becomes so, there won't be the same type of discussion, and there will also be other V & RS to choose from. Right now many of his positions are fringe positions, which explains why he's comfortable with contributing so often to the JSE.[4] He may be making the same type of blunder that Pauling did - getting too far outside of his own field. If his POV ever becomes mainstream, then there will be V & RS about it, but until then, to claim he's mainstream is OR. -- Fyslee 14:51, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I think this is one of those reasons why using the word "mainstream" is on the weasel list; because mainstream is such a moving target. And it means different things to different people. Every field likes to consider itself "mainstream" because that is where the money is until they find something new, then they want to be "cutting edge", but don't go overboard into "fringe" or you lose it all. It is more notable that someone who spent so much of his life researching for cancer cures and obviously obtaining a relative "height" among his peers as to be professor emeritus would go out on a limb. If we don't put some weight on something that a person like this says, then why are we using our tax money to educate these guys to make decisions for us - just to tell us what we want to hear?. I guess that is why we are supposed to just write what we can verify with reliable sources. We're not supposed to be changing the world here, that's their job. We're just reporting on their work. --Dematt 15:12, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Well put. That's the difference between our speculations and discussions here, and what finally makes it into articles. Good thing there's a difference! -- Fyslee 16:48, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
So what makes it into the article with regards to this? Levine2112 17:19, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, obviously, that Kauffman is a Phd who also works to fight health fraud and he suggests that the site... (add his conclusions verbatum or paraphrase appropriately). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dematt (talk • contribs) 17:41, 24 January 2007 (UTC). --Dematt 17:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC) (boy, that hagerman bot is fast!) --Dematt 17:43, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, that sounds good.I'd be in favor of rewording it as such. Levine2112 17:53, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, as long as we're feeling open minded, here's the real problem: (new section)--I'clast 18:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Low carb

"...who contests conventional medical consensus in nutrition on saturated fat and cholesterol"re JK's cholesterol and saturated fats "heresy" what the sentence would need to convey & address JK for accuracy: Kauffman's real starting point is about NIDDM/Syndrome X susceptible type people, about 1/4 of the population, who greatly need to use low carb diets, and further that trans-fats and fructose may aggravate insulin resistance.

Since the early lab tests usually confused or counted trans-fats with saturated fats into the 1990s, saturated fats almost always got the blame as "bad". He also cites *many* disturbing test results with polyunsaturates, i.e. 3xRR breast cancer in a Swedish trial of saturated oil vs polyunsaturates and technically analyzes many connections of health problems associated with polyunsaturated oils. He proceeds to criticize the LDL cholesterol biomarker, statins, and dietary cholesterol restrictions as wrong headed; instead favoring fish oil, saturated fats and mono-unsaturated oils; avoiding transfats, polyunsaturated oils, sugars and starches. He thinks an additional 1/2 of the population would benefit from *appropriate* low carb type diets. All spelled out in terms of conventional scientific analysis and historical background, starting with what many think is familiar nutrition. Any suggestions now?--I'clast 18:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

He sounds right on target with everything I know about nutrition. Yes to fish oils, no to transfats. Today, that kind of think is dead-on "mainstream". Hence all of the Fish Oil pills on the market and all of the food companies pulling "Partially Hydrogenated Oils" out of their ingredient - opting instead for the non-toxic alternative of cold-pressed and expeller-pressed oils. Excellent example of "alternative thinking" that was so dead-on right that it became "mainstream thinking". Levine2112 18:50, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Certainly plausible. Do we have anything that says he is "outside" the mainstream, controversial, or questionable? What does Quackwatch say about him? --Dematt 19:28, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Criticizing LDL as a useful biomarker and denying the benefit of statins (at least in high risk groups) definitely goes against current medical consensus. Of course, consensus is evolving particularly quickly in nutrition, so it's a moving target, but still. On the other hand, fish oil and avoidance of trans-fats are pretty widely accepted. I haven't been too active in the great JK debate recently, but really - the article's not about Kauffman. Why not a bare-bones summary, like "Kauffman Ph.D., prof emeritus of organic chemistry at USP, wrote a critical website review of Quackwatch in JSE." Then the relevant quotes. Really, people will pick up on the context without all of the verbiage that's been so controversial. MastCell 19:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Agree, as above. --Dematt 20:54, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
That seem so right on, MastCell. Without a reliable source saying that Kauffmann's thinking is current outside the mainstream, then we can't say it for risk of WP:OR and generally for just being plain wrong. What was once fringe is now conventional and vice-versa. LEt's just stick to the criticism rather than the criticism of the criticism. Levine2112 19:46, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
"Is Kauffman alternative?", especially in a negative sense, is an important question here. There is a tremendous economic statin presence in medicine that draws *severe* criticism from some very conventional MDs that have memories longer than ~7 years. Can statins reduce near term heart attacks? Yes. Do they show much mortality improvement at 7-8 years out? Not much yet, NNT is about 1 per 1000 improvement in tests questioned for high initial and continuing dropout rates (whither the real compliance problem(s) with 1 little pill per day?) and specific population application. The LDL components, apolipoprotein B and Lp(a) seem to be "very bad" in complex ways that may be best handled by other, cheaper, off patent chemicals as well as measured with the other emerging biomarkers. Are we waiting on new patents or just milking old ones? *One* of Kauffman's points: the fish oil alone is cheaper and has much better long term statistics, this has been known for over 20 years (*average* 1 oz of fish per day, ~ 1 meal per week).--I'clast 20:11, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, statins are big business, and yes, they work. The benefit is bigger the higher-risk you are, and a lot of the disagreement stems from where to draw the line on who should receive them. I'd never discourage anyone from eating fish or using fish oil supplements, but I'd also recommend that people in certain high-risk groups benefit from a statin. But this is really neither here nor there, and maybe best addressed (if anywhere on Wikipedia) in the articles on statins, fish oil, the pharmaceutical industry, or heart disease risk factors and risk reduction. My point was that we can just avoid altogether the debate about how "alternative" Kauffman is, since we'll never reach an answer everyone's happy with. Why not just stick to the bare bones? I think people will pick up on the context pretty readily - it's not exactly subtle. MastCell 20:56, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Agree with all of the above. --Dematt 20:58, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
The reason this is important is that in our original, extended October consensus purposefully had Kauffman above the "line", "The Quackwatch website has attracted critics, most of whom are alternative medicine proponents..." with the linked review first. This has several not so fine points: (1) Linking the review first makes it unambiguously accessible, "if you going to read something extra/worthwhile, read this" instead of burying it, Kauffman's criticism is more important than his bio; (2) some editors wish to light weight, discount or discredit QW counterviews automatically, such as GB's current, gratuitious little fecalith, here, this is well poisoning; (3) that Kauffman's review *is different* in nature than the others listed (economic independence, scientific background, precise criticism). MastCell, the content that you find agreeable I could live with, but I have a little chagrin over the placement and structure. Here is what I mean: [5] as more content per your comments and Arthur's JSE comments.--I'clast 21:48, 24 January 2007 (UTC
OK, I've taken a shot at simplifying things. I've inline-cited the article; we should use this for all refs, including Quackwatch at the top of the article, instead of using external links in the text. I've put everyone under "Criticism", and removed the "most are proponents of alt-med". I'm trying to simplify as much as possible, because I think that a) that's the only way we'll reach consensus, and b) people will quickly pick up on the difference between, say, Kauffman's article and Bolen's website without a lot of prompting. MastCell 22:02, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
... and I've changed Quackwatch in the lead from an external link to an inline cite, as above. "Fecalith"? I know Wikipedia isn't censored for minors, but do we need that kind of language? MastCell 22:05, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
The JK entry is sleeker, if it holds, I could abide. "Flowery language" telegraphs extreme impatience & irritation.--I'clast 22:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

No doubt it does, and I'm not saying those feelings aren't justified, but you've been around the block here. Anyhoo, my feeling is that the mention of "Malignant Medical Myths" sounds a bit like book-salesmanship or WP:VANITY oops, apparently it's now WP:COI ("Biographical material that does not significantly add to the clarity or quality of the article"), but then I haven't read the book - maybe it deals with Quackwatch in some way. And I can live with compromise, although my preference would be to excise mention of the book as not directly relevant to Quackwatch. MastCell 22:22, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm all for keeping it simple; though apparently ScienceApologist and GigiButterfly disagree. Maybe they haven't been reading this discussion here. Anyone care to revert? It would be better if it wasn't me reverting this time. And what's with this line Gigi keeps tagging onto the end: "The aboved mentioned critics are mostly proponents of alternative medicine"? Weasel?Levine2112 22:34, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I would appreciate if you didn't solicit reverters, Levine2112. It is very poor form. Kauffman's affiliation with pseudoscientific and fringe science venues is well-documented and important if the reader is going to be able to determine whether they should take Kauffman seriously or not. Consider the source is important, but you can't consider the source if editors keep deleting the biographical information about the source. --ScienceApologist 22:40, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Mastcell, good work, it was beautiful and you deserve an emmy. Sorry it didn't hold long enough for me to see it without scrolling the history. Maybe we can do like Fyslee suggested earlier and make the entire criticism section into a narrative. I bet you could make it all flow nicely. --Dematt 22:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflicts)Mastcell, I know. However, the book to me looks like a notable aspect of JK in this area and it provides far more detailed references to what is in WTWQ. If I could link parts, I think we would have had fewer problems with agreeing how he classifies in the first place. There are dynamics at play here that probably look strange. Look now. Oh. Thank you[6].--I'clast 22:46, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, I went back to a streamlined version and suggested discussing here. I won't be reverting beyond that, because I really don't see the productivity in an edit war. We go back and forth between puffing up Kauffman and cataloging his more questionable (dare I say crank-ish?) beliefs. The best approach is neither. Really, give the reader some credit - the agendas of Kauffman and Quackwatch don't require our expert help to recognize. If someone reads Kauffman's article and throws away their Zocor, it was gonna happen anyway. MastCell 22:43, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Terrible argument. Wikipedia is about presenting (cataloging) verifiable information for readers, not about puffing up. It's clear that one agenda is promotional of criticism while the other is at the very least attempting to describe the context. --ScienceApologist 22:49, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Unreadable, partisan attack on Criticism[7].--I'clast 23:10, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I guess the question is how much verifiable information to catalog on someone who's not, after all, the subject of the article. My point was that anyone who reads Kauffman's article will pick up on his, and the JSE's, agenda - no one's going to confuse it for the New England Journal. By the way, I agree with shortening the quotes/space given to Kauffman, but one thing at a time. MastCell 23:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Enough to credibly alert the reader of various possibilities for *their* evaluation and at least a string that allows further investigation as long as they want to pull on the string.--I'clast 23:57, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
We need to insert/summarize Kauffmann's actual criticism into this prose. Right now it reads like a lesson on who Kauffmann is rather than actually saying what his criticism of Quackwatch is. Levine2112 00:10, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
It's a caricature of Kauffman, precisely by the editor who also said this, just call him "Chip"'.--I'clast 00:38, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Either way, the paragraph is dreadful. Try reading straight through it. --Philosophus T 00:23, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I wouldn't say that it is beautiful prose; nor would I say that it is particularly dreadful. I am open to reading your suggestions. Levine2112 00:27, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I suggest reversion to Mastcell's last edit and then try to discuss Sahelian and Goldberg reasonably.--I'clast 00:30, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I would love to limit this to actual criticism rather than prattle on about the critics. Let's just say who they are ina nutshell rather than go on and on about what organizations they belong to, who they voted for in the primaries, what their favorite color is, etc. Levine2112 00:32, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I think it is reasonable to expect to strike a balance. We should strive to describe who the people are. Kauffman may be an organic chemistry professor, but he reviewed QuackWatch because he is "familiar" with material related to their debunking. In particular, his support of alternative medicine and borderline fringe science/pseudoscience is an important marker which we should avail the reader. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ScienceApologist (talk • contribs) 00:39, 25 January 2007 (UTC).
I did not find examples of Kauffman *supporting* pseudoscience, just critcising someone's else lack of scientifically objective coverage on it, and him engaging in controversies. Labeling or implying him as PS seems to say more about his accusers. "alternative" seems pretty subjective, depends on the crowd you (or your critics) run with. Fringe, that is often the price of being right or too soon, knowing more (having more data &/or wit) than most.--I'clast 15:19, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Kauffman is a member of the Philadelphia Association for Critical Thinking. He clearly enjoys attacking "mainstream medicine" and is at least as guilty as Barrett of selecting only the evidence that supports his arguments. In that respect I do not consider him a reliable source of information about both sides of medical controversies. Nevertheless, I am not aware that he has supported fraud and quackery, as most of Barrett's critics do. alteripse 17:21, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Criticism section

Okay, I hope we're not finished with the Criticism section. It looks a little ragged in this version[8]. There is always the option of ditching the section and just incorporating this stuff into the article itself. I know a lot of people have been working hard on this and have poured a lot of blood and sweat into it, so I don't intend to suggest we ditch it all, but how much of this criticism stuff do we need anyway. Why don't we just write a NPOV article from the beginning and forget about a criticism section? --Dematt 03:11, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you propose. Why not sandbox it and see what you come up with? --ScienceApologist 03:48, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not to good with sandboxes, but if we just took out the section, how far are we off what an encyclopedia needs to say? I'm sure we need a little constructive criticism maybe towrd the end of notability (because the criticism actually makes it more notable), but just a few notes and it probably should be a Kauffman paraphrase or at the most three of four sentences. What do you think? --Dematt 04:10, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Write something here as a suggestion or be bold and try it. The worst that can happen is someone will revert it. --ScienceApologist 04:15, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Who would that be this time of night;) --Dematt 04:17, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Works for me! What do you think? --Dematt 04:19, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Color me skeptical, but I'm betting it probably won't last. The paraphrase is inexact and a bit equivocal and I'm not sure he's "noted" for what we are claiming he is "noted" for, but at least it's a start. We'll see what others think. --ScienceApologist 04:21, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Sounds like a plan. It probably does need some tweeking and maybe a once through on the rest of the article, but it says the same thing in just a lot less words. I think that is what MastCell was saying, too. I bet GB will be happy with it!:) --Dematt 04:27, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I am very happy with it now. GigiButterfly 05:45, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I find the latest unacceptable, this article needs a criticism section due to the large amount it receives. I do think the version I reverted to is much better than a bullet point...--Hughgr 05:53, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Ahh, Hughgr! I ask you to look at it again. Surely you don't think that mess is better than the short version? Do they not say the same thing? ..only so much more professionally. Have you ever read an encyclopedia with that kind of paragraph in it? How many times do we have to say this guy, this guy, this guy, this guy and this guy, don't like QW? Al we're doing is picking the best guy and saying the same thing... it's soooo much cleaner!!!! --Dematt 13:44, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Wow, there has been some back and forth during the night (here in Denmark). The version now is encyclopedic in form and contains a few criticisms that are pretty typical, but more serious than many one reads. While still inaccurate and straw man (seen from a pro QW POV), they are at least not the usual ad hominem attacks, which gives them a bit more credibility (seen from a critics POV). It even reads well. Good work. This is the type of prose version I had envisioned. It looks like an article, rather than a court docket. -- Fyslee 07:29, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm still looking for something that is cleaner and more concise. Imagine a world where we can say something once, no apologies and that's it.. no big CRITICISM title.. no yeah, but he's an aardvark.. just pick the best and say it. Saying something 5 times does not make anyone anymore convinced of wht you are writing, it is just annoying. Am I wrong? --Dematt 14:05, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed this discussion before reverting in the article. However, the term Criticism is a de facto Wikipedia standard and I think it should be used here.MaxPont 15:28, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

WP standard for sure, but not policy, or even guideline. I really think it is just more of a way to divide us into "Us vs Them", when this is not what an encyclopedia is about. I ask everyone to read it through and maybe we can work our way through this mess on all articles. Maybe we can find a way to get what we all want, good clean articles that handle all the issues, without dividing the people who write them. --Dematt 15:36, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I realize it was a shock to anybody that happened on the article, but, after reading this discussion, is anybody upset with the version[9] that SA and I agreed to last night? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dematt (talk • contribs) 16:05, 25 January 2007 (UTC).--Dematt 16:06, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I missed that version. No objection from me. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 16:15, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Headings

(edit conflict) Perhaps indenting it one more level, making it clear that the "criticism" section is part of "noteriety notability"? But the section is down to one paragraph. If the "Notability" section were renamed "awards" or "awards and praise", then "criticism" would properly be parallel construction, so should be at the same level.
In other words, the present
4. Notability
is acceptable, as would
4. Notability
  4.1 Criticism
and
4. Praise (or a section title to be named later)
5. Criticism.
but
4.  Notability
5.  Criticism
does not seem reasonable. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 15:46, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


How about modifing the Notability section?:

4. Notability
  4.1 Favorable mention
  4.2 Criticisms

-- Fyslee 16:23, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I still like the one without the word criticism [10]. I haven't heard from you. --Dematt 16:57, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
You forgot "notable criticism". After parusing the article in its present form it doesn't appear to have any criticism. I know there is that para., but I feel it needs a heading in order to be visable to the casual reader. --Hughgr 19:28, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow...

... it looks pretty good. MastCell 16:44, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

What about this one? [11] --Dematt 16:58, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I am very very sceptical and prone to revert. This compromise can only work if the pro-QW POV is also toned down. And if that is allowed to take place without the QW fan club reverting it. I believe it when I see it. MaxPont 18:02, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
What is the exact, concise reasoning for shortening this down and cutting out all of the good criticism? Especially from Peter Barry Chowka? I'm not looking for a fight nor an argument. Just a reason spelled out simply. I've read everything above and I am still not sure. Thanks. Levine2112 18:08, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

True, to be honest I thought PBC's criticism was the best. Sorry, I thought I was commenting on a stable version - I should look at the page history more closely next time. MastCell 18:26, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

For me its a matter of clarity and the KISS concept,"Keep It Simple Stu***" Read this:
  • QuackWatch has been criticised both by supporters of alternative medicine and by critics of mainstream medicine. For example, Joel M. Kauffman, a professor emeritus of Chemistry & Biochemistry[2] and author of Malignant Medical Myths,[3] wrote a website review of Quackwatch entitled "Watching the Watchdogs at Quackwatch" in the Journal of Scientific Exploration. Kauffman examined eight Quackwatch articles and concluded that the articles were "contaminated with incomplete data, obsolete data, technical errors, unsupported opinions, and/or innuendo..." and "...it is very probable that many of the 2,300,000 visitors to the website have been misled by the trappings of scientific objectivity."[4] Elmer M. Cranton, MD, author of Textbook on EDTA Chelation Therapy, rebuked criticism by Quackwatch of the chelation therapy that he explicitly supports by accusing the organization of having a "mission of attacking alternative and emerging medical therapies in favor of the existing medical monopoly."[5] Ray Sahelian, MD, an advocate of holistic medicine through vitamin supplements[6][7] accused Quackwatch of failing to point out "scams or inaccurate promotion and marketing practices by the pharmaceutical industry", even while praising Barrett for having done "good research on many of the people involved in the alternative health industry, and has pointed out several instances of inaccuracies and scams".[8]
Then this:
  • Quackwatch has attracted criticism from both proponents of alternative medicine and detractors of mainstream medicine. For example, Joel Kauffman,Phd, a noted proponent of several alternative medical approaches and supporter of some of fringe science's more controversial concepts, suggests that visitors to the site should view it with some skepticism as some of the information may be dangerous to their health. Peter Barry Chowka, an investigative journalist and former adviser to the National Institutes of Health's Office of Alternative Medicine, notes that Barrett "..seems to be putting down trying to be objective... But I personally think he's running against the tide of history."[9][4],[10]
I think it says what you want it to say without getting lost in the words. More is not always better and criticism just for the sake of criticizing is really just "sticks and stones". All articles should be written this way. Just my opinion. --Dematt 19:01, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for putting both in one place. Yes, I do agree with you that the second one reads much better. I do feel it should be under a criticism heading though, if only to be readily visible to the reader.--Hughgr 19:31, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Have you ever seen an encyclopedia with a section titled criticism? How about something less confrontational like ... ... ... ??? ??? ... hmmm. Are you sure we have to have a criticism section. It's just a neutrally constructed description of the subject that happens to be at the end of the article. Why do we have it called criticism? Technically the whole article could be considered criticism, some is constructive and some is not. --Dematt 00:30, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not trying to set precident, just going by other wikipedia articles. --Hughgr 05:15, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Good point. I'll research that and get back to you. --Dematt 13:36, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
It's not in WP Guide to writing better articles. Though there is some other good stuff about external links, etc. Not in WP Guide to Layout, Nothing in Article development, The WP perfect article has some good stuff, but nothing about a criticism section. However, The WP Manual of style does say something about not creating arguments about changing style - noting that the original version rules. So, I don't want to cause an argument over this, but do we want a criticism "section" or can we just incorporate it into the article? --Dematt 15:50, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


On another article I worked on, there are two criticism sections...one on internal and one on external. It seems to be the norm for this encyclopedia to have a criticism section in controversial articles. I still feel it needs to have a "criticism" section heading because we all know how much a casual reader actually reads. Right now, skimming the article, it would not appear that there is anyone saying anything critique wise about QW. --Hughgr 18:52, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay, lets go through this and get it to the point that we all feel pretty good about it, then fi you still want a criticism section, I will personally put it back in. If not, maybe we can rewrite the one you're talking about. --Dematt 20:14, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
What do you think? --Dematt 05:13, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Second version is distinct POV, and quite pejorative. "Supporter of some of fringe science's more controversial concepts"? That would be as in "lunatic fringe", right? And what, pray tell, ARE these weasely, unmentioned "more controversial concepts"? Please, hang up the insults and innuendo, and bio-McCarthyite imperiousness ("...are you, or have you ever been..."). The first version is wordier but obviously more neutral. -- Alan2012 14:31, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the first version: "Ray Sahelian, MD, an advocate of holistic medicine through vitamin supplements": vitamin supplements, as such, have little to do with holistic medicine. Further, he may actually be an advocate of "holistic medicine" (rather poorly defined on the WP page ont he subject), but we don't know that, and it is not relevant. Better: "Ray Sahellian, MD, an advocate of nutritional supplementation for a variety of common health issues..." -- Alan2012 15:09, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable, go for it. --Dematt 15:17, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Regarding "fringe": the description of the JSE was changed from "fringe science" to "a journal that sometimes features unconventional views". Also, the description of Sahelian was changed (omitted "holistic", described him as an advocate of "nutritional medicine" -- more accurate) -- Alan2012 16:12, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

re-arranged

I re-arranged the second and third sections somewhat. I don't think I changed much content other than edited for weasel and peacock words that did seem to raise PoV issues. If I changed anything that was important, feel free to put it back. Hopefully, I've made some improvements in the two sections. --Dematt 18:02, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Chowka quote

It seems to me that the Chowka quote should indeed be included, but I wonder whether it doesn't need a little context. Here is the way it is now:

Peter Barry Chowka, an investigative journalist and former adviser to the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine, notes that Barrett "..seems to be putting down trying to be objective... But I personally think he's running against the tide of history."[11]

I suggest rewriting roughly as follows:

Peter Chowka, an investigative journalist and former adviser to the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine, remaked that Barrett's tendency to dismiss some alternate therapies out of hand without clinical evidence "..seems to be putting down trying to be objective."[12]

I removed the "history running against him" as an editorialization that made sense in the article but doesn't add much here. (That is, it is alluding to the fact that alternate therapies are becoming more accepted at every level of society and that Barrett is out of step--which is, I suppose, a fair comment from its perspective but doesn't warrent inclusion here.) I'm going to make this change and you can edit some or all of it back. Bogman2 19:18, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Souunds good to me. Levine2112 00:01, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm fine with that. --Dematt 01:49, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

waves

The JSE wikilink identifies and outlines the controversy around the site. "FriSci" at this level of detail is highly questionable, well poisoning again. You may want to restart work on this section again[12].--I'clast 05:55, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I think it is important to both name the journal and describe it for the reader. We should name the journal simply because it provides a context, but since the Journal's title is potentially misleading it is important that we describe what it is a journal devoted to. The wording itself doesn't concern me so much, but we should be clear that JSE is devoted to subjects outside of the scientific mainstream. --ScienceApologist 06:00, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure the wording doesn't concern you too much, a lot of useful details have been chopped out. There is a lot to describe to the reader. That is why the previous consensus version lasted over 2 months.--I'clast 06:17, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Your current version works okay for me, though it usually isn't technically good practice to include an acronymn without saying what it stands for. Still, I'm not complaining. --ScienceApologist 06:48, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Another lawsuit?

Hey, anybody heard anything about CBP (a chiropractic organization) filing a lawsuit in September of 2006 against Stephen Barrett, Quackwatch and Alan Botnick? James Turner is the attorney for CBP. Apparently they can't find Alan Botnick to serve his papers. --Dematt 22:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I know about it. It's one of the reasons I objected to the quote about Barrett "never being sued" without adding mention that that was no longer true. Ilena 22:29, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


Maybe it has something to do with this?
Levine2112 22:25, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


Wow, you are on the ball, Levine! Have you guys already discussed it? What's the net result so far? --Dematt 22:29, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
No discussion here yet that I know of. I only know about this from researching Quackwatch and chiropractic jointly and I stumbled accross the Deed Harrison, DC statement on the Ideal Spine website. P.S. Ilena has a point above about the Barrett article stating that he has never been sued. Clearly that isn't true anymore (though I don't know that that statement still exists in the current Barrett article). P.P.S. Actually the statement is still there: In a biographical article about Barrett, Fred D. Baldwin wrote, "Despite Barrett's pattern of naming names of people as well as products, he has never been sued for libel, except for a counter-suit to a libel suit he once filed (the counter-suit was dismissed)". I will remove it.Levine2112 22:41, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Instead of removing it, I would reference this case to add balance to the quote. Ilena 23:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Read it more carefully before you do anything. Don't act on a misquote. The quote is very specific, and is even qualified. We're dealing with two different types of suits!
As far as a new lawsuit, when it actually becomes a reality, we should be able to find V & RS to justify inclusion. Until then, such mention risks being OR and may have BLP issues:
  • "The evil that men do lives after them. Be wary of putting it into Wikipedia before then." (Formerly at WP:BLP)
-- Fyslee 22:54, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Here is more from Ideal Spine. Levine2112 22:59, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Until this is a reality, the deletions that were just made are improper. Even if the CBP suit becomes a reality, it would depend on the charges. The current subject is libel suits, and that hasn't changed, so the deletions should be reverted, preferably by Levine2112. -- Fyslee 23:05, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
You say "when it actually becomes a reality" and "until this is a reality." Are you denying that Barrett has been served and this lawsuit has been filed? Ilena 23:08, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
It seems that we have neough to say that these is a suit underway (though prehaps not enough to discuss this case yet). Regardless, there is enough WP:V and WP:RS to make the Baldwin statemtn seem innacurate at this point. I am not suggesting that we say that Barrett has been sued for something other than a countersuit, but rather just take the "never been sued" statement out until we can confirm if it is true. Levine2112 23:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I am looking at the January 2007 The American Journal of Clinical Chiropractic quarterly (the CBP "newsletter"). It has an article on the top front middle that reads "Help Us Locate Allen Botnick". In the second paragraph it reads:
  • At the end of September 2006, CBP filed a lawsuit against Quackwatch, Quackwatch owner Stephen Barrett, MD, and Allen Botnick, DC.
If that means anything that we can use.
--Dematt 23:19, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Three points here:

1. I don't know for sure. If so, and if the courts have accepted it (IOW, it's not just a charge on chiropractic websites), then we can use V & RS to document it. Sites of the involved aren't necessarily reliable at the present time as they have a vested interest in spreading this potentially damaging information. That's where the BLP and OR issues come into the picture. Wikipedia is not a place to post notification of pending lawsuits, made only by the accusers. It's not their noticeboard. CBP is a V, but not a RS in this case.

That's what Bolen and Negrete did with their ill-fated cross-complaint, which is now getting them sued in a malicious prosecution suit. They used their websites and myriad other website to publicize the case. That case was never accepted by the courts, but it was announced all over the internet by the accusers. Imagine if we did with their announcement, what you are proposing we do with CBP's announcement. What a scandal if it never makes it to court! In time such issues will be more clear.

2. This new suit only has relevance to the Baldwin quotes that have been deleted IF it is a libel suit. If not it shouldn't be touched. If so, the quote should be revised or supplemented with more information, not deleted.

3. Premature actions and inclusion of references regarding suits that MIGHT become a reality risk being OR, IOW jumping the gun, and we have already seen some itchy trigger fingers in action....;-) -- Fyslee 23:25, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that we don't have enough info to post to the article about the lawsuit. It does make the Baldwin quote inaccurate. If you want to still include the quote but with some supplemented info, then let's hear some discussion on this at the Barrett talk page. Fyslee, perhaps you can supply a suggested revision? Levine2112 23:31, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Until the case is fully accepted by a court, and it is clearly a LIBEL case, there is nothing to change. The statement is still accurate until that time. Patience. The current deletions should be undone. -- Fyslee 23:34, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


The reasoning being used to justify the current deletion is based on a misquote, which I pointed out above, but which is being ignored:

  • "Yes, I know about it. It's one of the reasons I objected to the quote about Barrett "never being sued" without adding mention that that was no longer true." Ilena [13]

I warned you all above, but yet this discussion continues!

The misquotation leaves out the crucial part, so look at the highlighted words:

  • "...he has never been sued for libel, except for a counter-suit to a libel suit he once filed (the counter-suit was dismissed)"

Such misquoting renders the whole line of reasoning null and void. -- Fyslee 23:45, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Whatever he is being sued for is notable and should be included in this article. When Barrett sues ... he and others on his webring advertise the complaint as if the jury had ruled! Even when he loses, he has people making the identical claims the courts have shot down. So, for accuracy and balance, if he has been sued for anything, it appears a mention should be made. Thank you. Ilena 23:53, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
That's not how Wikipedia works. That's what's known here as Original research, and it is forbidden in articles, and if it violates BLP matters, it is forbidden on talk pages and user space. Wikipedia articles are not noticeboards. It appears from a link posted above that CBP is still raising funds. -- Fyslee 23:58, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't know how many times I have to repeat this before it sinks in, but Barrett doesn't have any webring. It's mine alone and he has never had anything to do with it. He has a few sites in it because I invited him to submit them for membership, just as I do to other sites I find that are on-topic for the ring. There is no "his webring", period. -- Fyslee 00:17, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Which websites of Barrett's are NOT linked to the webring you own??? I was looking at it yesterday and it seems that they are all there. Which ones are not linked? Thank you. Ilena 00:20, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
"Linked to"? I have no idea what he does of that sort, nor is it any concern of mine. He does his thing and I do mine. I only know that under half of his sites are in the Anti-Quackery Ring, and a few are in the Skeptic Ring. Web rings are an interesting phenomena that are used extensively by alternative medicine practitioners and many other interest groups and people. They have very little effect on actual hits one receives if one has a large site, but small sites get some benefit because they get more exposure. You can take a look at the statistics that are always posted there that show incoming and outgoing hits. There is nothing odious about running webrings, unless one uses them to run scams, and that actually happens. -- Fyslee 00:26, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Here is Botnick's old retraction. A simple Google search found it. Now I find that at the bottom of the page (not the end of the thread) he retracts his retraction! -- Fyslee 00:04, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow, thanks for that link. I found this one after reading yours. It appears you are an administrator on Chirotalk with Botnick. [14] (I made a copy of the page in case it gets cybershredded.) Ilena 00:35, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
You should be aware that you can't use that information against me. My activities outside of wikipedia are perfectly legitimate and of no concern here. I rarely even visit Chirotalk anymore, so my so-called status there isn't worth much. -- Fyslee 00:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
This chirotalk link [15] that links to the one you just posted says you logged in at "7:36pm today," that you're "active" and have made 667 posts since Mar 12, 2004. Thanks for posting the Chirotalk link. I had never visited there before and it is very informative. Ilena 01:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
It's an interesting site, as it's the only chiropractic forum that allows any criticism of the profession. All the others exercise strict censoring, which is their prerogative, just like on other types of lists. Since all discussion forums on the internet have their own rules, anyone who violates them can be bounced. At Chirotalk members can air their gripes and tell their experiences, both positive and negative. Many chiros are members at Chirotalk: active and former DCs, professors, researchers, leaders, etc.. I have access to their personal info (which I would never divulge), so I can see who some of them are, and the more important ones definitely hide their true identities. Openly being a chiroreformer can lead to harassment and worse. The profession has never been kind to reform attempts, which is a well-known historical fact.
As a registered user I have my PC set (with a cookie) and my Chirotalk profile set so that I am "always on". That means I don't have to log-in everytime I happen to look at the site, which is quite rare nowadays. (Now, in connection with your posting of links to Chirotalk, I have looked at them. So what?!) That link you mention shows my last post was:
  • Chiro student-to-be at Student Doctor ..... on Aug 28, 2006, 7:27am [16]
So you can see that I'm a oh-so-very-active user (Not!). (Five months ago!! I ought to get fired for not showing up or doing my work, but it's not a paying job.) Even if I was a user 24 hrs. a day, it's none of your business or of any concern to Wikipedia. Should I start listing all your posts and activities at Usenet and accuse you of being active there? I think not. I'm not going to play such games. It's beneath my dignity. -- Fyslee 08:19, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
At some point soon, preferably yesterday, I hope you cease your non-RfA activities and start providing evidence of relevance to what started it, and nothing other than that. Wikipedia talk pages are not to be used as discussion lists or like Usenet. They are to be used for discussion of matters directly related to editing. -- Fyslee 00:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that we need to wait till we have a reliable secondary source for this at least and then we can re-visit. If people want to talk about this on the talk boards or whatever, go for it, but I think WP needs to wait for now. --Dematt 01:25, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Word. (I agree with Dematt 100%). MastCell 16:45, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

External Link to be Considered

When You Can’t Critique CBP In The Peer-Reviewed Literature, You Can Always Send Your Article To Quack Watch: Very intelligent, documented rebuttal to Quackwatch. Ilena 23:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Looking up Allen Botnick and found him discussing his wikipedia expert

Wikipedia entry on Chiropractic needs a revision Very interesting comments. (I made a copy of the page if this link gets cyber-shredded). Ilena 00:05, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, we had this conversation about a year ago. We all actually agreed that DD could well be called the first mixer because he used a lot of different therapies initially, but there were no verifiable or reliable sources that we could cite, and it would be unwikilike to use OR. I would be interested in seeing the source. --Dematt 02:30, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Misquoting again (in the heading). -- Fyslee 00:20, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Really??? Here it is again. Wikipedia entry on Chiropractic needs a revision Ilena 00:26, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Recycling a charge doesn't make it any more correct. Take a really careful look at your heading, the emphasized part, and then take a looked at your statement itself and then the linked page. You are misquoting. -- Fyslee 00:39, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Uh, looks like a perfect c&p to me. Ilena 00:51, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
perfect clip for what?? I don't know what the heck 'mixer' and 'straight' is anyway, unless it relates to vodka. After the day I had, I would take the vodka over any chiro version .Jance 05:00, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I'll drink to that;) --Dematt 05:23, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Amazing. The comment above on Botnick discussing his "wikipedia expert" doesn't make sense anymore since the Chirotalk link has been altered since 2 days ago. [17]
You can see in the cached version, it included a middle comment: "This sounds like a job that (Fyslee's real world name) could help spearhead." Now it's gone! Here is the current version, with the middle comment deleted. [18] Ilena 04:52, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure there are some editors out there who enjoy the continuing war between you and Fyslee however this talk page is not the place for it. Go take it to your user page or off WP. Shot info 06:50, 2 February 2007 (UTC)