Talk:Quackwatch/Archive 3

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Bolen and Quackpotwatch mentioned in the introduction

David D. wrote earlier "If we really go with precedent then Bolen and his website Quackpot watch should be mentioned as a critic in the intro. There are countless examples of this in wikipedia." Since Quackpotwatch is redirected to this article and since Bolen, like it or not, is a prominent critic of QW, this is a sensible suggestion. What is the view on this ? NATTO 03:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Way over the bounds. Bolen is paid to criticize Barrett, by his own declaration. Nothing he says is of value to this article. alteripse 03:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I think the critics of Quackwatch are amply represented in the article as is. Placing a mention of Bolen and QuackpotWatch in the intro is inappropriate; the best approach is what we have now (mention that there are critics, then give the critics their own section later in the article) - that's in line with Wikipedia precedent on controversial topics. MastCell 04:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I think that "... not free from criticism and controversy" understates the situation and needs short, maybe subtle, improvement, but am not really that wild about single party entities as "The oppositon" in the intro *verbiage*. I like a more general stmt. Maybe simple references after the improved generalization with 2 sources would be appropriate. Frankly, Bolen wouldn't be my first choice, you really need another broad commentator for such a reference or even another public example of controversy[1].--I'clast 07:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I guess I think that Quackpotwatch should be a stub article w/o being a platform.--I'clast 08:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I think a few references after the "not without critics" sentence makes sense. I don't agree that QuackpotWatch deserves a stub article. I wasn't privy to the AfD debate, but QuackpotWatch seems to be a self-published website by someone with an axe to grind, and would seem to fail most applications of WP:NOTE for its own article. If every controversial topic then included WP pages describing every critical website, things would quickly get out of control. Let's reference it in the intro, cite it under "Critics", and leave it there. MastCell 18:02, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Without getting into a discussion about whether Quackpotwatch deserves an article or not, it is true that it is a self published website, but so is QW. I agree with User:MastCell that a better and more descriptive wording regarding the criticism of QW is needed in the intro. This is especially relevant since QW itself does not present a balanced , objective view of the modalities and individuals criticised. This is well described in the SB article. Even Forbes has noted the particular ( one sided )health orientation of QW and it's rather harsh tone combined with lack of information to support some of it's listings.... and that is a GOOD review of QW. NATTO 00:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Again, criticism of QW is amply represented in this article (if not over-represented). I said that I'd support citations to the "not without critics" claim, with footnotes to the appropriate critical sites. The wording is actually not bad, and the criticism is, again, amply represented in the appropriate section; we don't need to start fighting the battle in the intro. MastCell 20:06, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Apologies if I misunderstood what you meant. Still the intro has to reflect the article and be worded NPOV. It is not about fighting "the battle" but having the intro properly reflect the content of the article and provide an overview of the main points in the article, including a mention of its notable controversies . I have suggested revised wording below for the intro that includes info on all the relevant parts of the article. NATTO 20:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Revision of the Lead

The important principles to keep in mind here are found in the WP:LEAD guidelines. The lead should be a mini version of the article. All the significant major subjects should be mentioned, but not discussed or examined. The lead should, just like the article, maintain some semblance of balance, without undue weight. It wouldn't hurt at all if it was written with interesting prose designed to wake interest in reading the article.

The lead section should provide a clear and concise introduction to an article's topic, establish context, and characterize the terms. It should contain several paragraphs, depending on the length of the article, and should provide an overview of the main points the article will make, summarizing the primary reasons the subject matter is interesting or notable, and including a mention of its notable controversies, if there are any. The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, should be written in a clear and accessible style, should be carefully sourced like the rest of the text, and should encourage the reader to read more. - Source: WP:LEAD

A simple way to develop the lead (and to keep it up to date as the article develops) is to use the TOC. If subject matter is different enough to deserve a subheading, then it likely should also be represented in the lead.

Here is the current TOC:

1 Mission and scope
2 About the site
3 Notability
4 Criticism
4.1 Other critics
5 References
6 See also
7 External links
7.1 Favorable
7.2 Critical

The last few sections (5-7) obviously don't deserve mention in the lead.

Here is the current lead (without links or code):

Quackwatch is a website operated by Quackwatch, Inc., an American non-profit organization incorporated in the state of Pennsylvania [1] whose stated purpose is to "combat health-related frauds, myths, fads, and fallacies" and whose claimed "primary focus is on quackery-related information that is difficult or impossible to get elsewhere". [2] Quackwatch is operated by Stephen Barrett, M.D., who founded the non-profit in 1969, with input from his board of advisors, and help from numerous volunteers. [3] The Quackwatch website was started in 1997, [4] and though it has won numerous awards, it is not free from criticism and controversy.

If we follow my suggestions above (I may be wrong, so we can discuss it), then the lead is somewhat poorly written. Some matters are covered in too much depth and would be better moved into the article, and other matters are hardly mentioned, including the criticisms.

What do you think of my suggestions? Is this a good basis on which to revise the lead? -- Fyslee 19:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

More or less agree as an assessment tool for order, coverage, structure; not a slave. Maybe try this as a starting point:
Quackwatch is a website operated by Quackwatch, Inc., an American non-profit organization [1] whose stated purpose is to "combat health-related frauds, myths, fads, and fallacies" and whose claimed "primary focus is on quackery-related information that is difficult or impossible to get elsewhere". [2] Quackwatch is operated by Stephen Barrett, a retired psychiatrist, who founded the non-profit in 1969. He receives input from his board of advisors, and help from numerous volunteers. [3] Quackwatch and its website, started in 1997,[4] have won numerous awards. They have also attracted numerous critics and some associates have engaged in a number of related controversies and lawsuits, with mixed results.--I'clast 21:52, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
(w/o making a rehash, since some are covered extensively elsewhere, I think a brief paragraph before/after Criticism would simply note that notable QW associates, individuals & overlapping organizations, have been involved in legal matters subject related to their QW philosophy, statements, activities.) --I'clast 00:13, 17 October 2006
What about: "Quackwatch is a website operated by Quackwatch, Inc., an American non-profit organization established in 1969,[1] whose stated purpose is to combat what it considers health-related frauds, myths, fads, and fallacies and whose primary focus is on what it defines as quackery-related information that it claims is difficult or impossible to get elsewhere. [2] Quackwatch is operated by Stephen Barrett, a retired psychiatrist, the founder and operator who receives input from his board of advisors, and help from numerous volunteers. [3] Quackwatch and its website, started in 1997[4] have won numerous awards. They have also attracted numerous critics regarding the balance, quality and reliability of the information and opinions published on the website and some associates have engaged in a number of related controversies and lawsuits, with mixed results. " NATTO 02:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Sounds fine to me. I think it is important that the new reader understand this site has real issues, and is not a tea time chatsite - it's live ammo, a hot zone with real life implications. This Intro would be a better, more encyclopedic lead, IMHO.--I'clast 07:13, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

This is looking like something I had envisioned. The criticisms section is now much better represented, and some of the information in the start is appropriately shortened. It still needs some work, but it's moving in the right direction. Because the present wording has been in place for quite awhile and was achieved by the consensus of many editors, it is important to preserve certain phrases in their present form as much as possible. If we don't do that, then we end up getting in controversy all over again over the same matters. But all in all a good start. I'll try to come up with a version, incorporating some of the better additions above.

Revised:

Quackwatch is the website of Quackwatch, Inc., whose stated purpose is to "combat health-related frauds, myths, fads, fallacies, and misconduct," and whose primary focus is on what it defines as quackery-related information that it claims is difficult or impossible to get elsewhere. [1] The website is part of a network of related websites dealing with similar subject matter.
Quackwatch is operated by Stephen Barrett, M.D., a retired psychiatrist, with input from his board of advisors and help from numerous volunteers. [2] The website contains articles written in an easily accessible style for the non-specialist consumer, as well as scientific reports, books, government reports, Frequently Asked Questions, consumer advice and strategies, as well as other forms of information.
Quackwatch has won numerous awards and is quoted favorably in the press and medical journals, but it is also a very controversial website, since part of its mission involves criticisms of various practices and the persons who practice them. This has attracted numerous critics who claim the criticisms are unbalanced, unreliable, or misplaced.
Some critics of Quackwatch and Barrett have been involved in libel lawsuits filed by Barrett with mixed results. Barrett himself has never been sued for libel.


How's that look? The mention of the criticisms is substantially increased.

The last two sentences can be sourced, but aren't very relevant here, since Quackwatch has not been involved in lawsuits. NCAHF has been involved in the King Bio lawsuit, and Barrett has filed several libel suits all related to repetitions of the same libel coming from one single source -- Tim Bolen. Therefore those two sentences don't really belong in this article, but in the Barrett article.

Boring information to move into the body of the article:

  • started in 1996 [1] and operated by Quackwatch, Inc., an American non-profit organization founded in 1969, and incorporated in the state of Pennsylvania [3]

-- Fyslee 21:53, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

According to the Baldwin article, Barrett has been sued (in a counter suit) for libel. [2] Regardless, the last sentence doesn't really go here for the reasons you stated... Levine2112 00:15, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
The statement that "Barrett himself has never been sued for libel" doesn't belong in this article, but it is true.
Here is the quote from Baldwin:
"Despite Barrett's pattern of naming names of people as well as products, he has never been sued for libel, except for a counter-suit to a libel suit he once filed (the counter-suit was dismissed). His explanation? "I protect myself by not saying anything that isn't true." That doesn't mean that he isn't attacked." [3]
The use of the word "except" makes it confusing if read quickly, but a careful reading makes it more clear.
The cross-complaint was not for libel, and it was voluntarily dismissed when it came time to provide evidence for any one of the many false charges.
Here is the complaint. It never mentions the word "libel" a single time:
The complaint never went to court. Anyone can charge anyone with anything, but it is first when the court accepts it and tries the case that we can legitimately say that someone has been "sued." Even if this case had been tried, it was not for libel. -- Fyslee 20:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


What about:

"Quackwatch is a website operated by Quackwatch, Inc., whose stated purpose is to combat what it considers " health-related frauds, myths, fads, and fallacies " and whose primary focus is on what it defines as quackery-related information that it claims is difficult or impossible to get elsewhere. Quackwatch is operated by Stephen Barrett, a retired psychiatrist, the founder and operator who receives input from his board of advisors, and help from numerous volunteers. Quackwatch and its related websites have won numerous awards, but they are also very controversial websites that have attracted numerous critics who claim the comments are unbalanced, unreliable, or misplaced. Some critics of Quackwatch and Barrett have been involved in libel lawsuits filed by Barrett, with mixed results. "

I do not think it is appropriate to repeat in detail what is already explained in the article. NATTO 04:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I like shorter. I prefer a more general form "Some critics and associates of Quackwatch have been involved in legal actions, with mixed results. " as more accurate for the last sentence since associates, editors, (board) members of QW, more than just Barrett, have been involved in *various* legal actions (civil & otherwise), forums & functions (witness) e.g.R Baratz at QW as well as others such as V Herbert.--I'clast 06:35, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
As noted above, "the last two sentences can be sourced, but aren't very relevant here, since Quackwatch has not been involved in lawsuits." The named Board members of the NCAHF have been involved in some lawsuits, and therefore such mention belongs on the NCAHF article, and not here where it isn't (and shouldn't be) discussed, and therefore shouldn't be mentioned in the lead at all. -- Fyslee 08:58, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


New revision. I believe this version mentions the major high points, is written in a prose style, and gives better mention to the critics section, unlike the present version:

Quackwatch is the primary website of Quackwatch, Inc., and is part of a network of websites dealing with related subjects. Its stated purpose is to "combat health-related frauds, myths, fads, fallacies, and misconduct," and its primary focus is on what it defines as quackery-related information that it claims is difficult or impossible to get elsewhere. [1] Quackwatch is operated by Stephen Barrett, M.D., a retired psychiatrist, with input from his board of advisors and help from numerous volunteers. [2] The website contains many types of information related to consumer advice and strategies. While the website has won numerous awards and is quoted favorably in the press and medical journals, it is also a very controversial website. Since part of its mission involves criticisms of various practices and the organizations and persons who practice them, it has attracted numerous critics who claim the comments are unbalanced, unreliable, and/or misplaced.

Information to move:

  • started in 1996 [1] and operated by Quackwatch, Inc., an American non-profit organization founded in 1969, and incorporated in the state of Pennsylvania [3]

Please place comments immediately above the References section. -- Fyslee 09:48, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

"Since part of its mission involves criticisms of various practices and the organizations and persons who practice them,..." Tends to read as "our ratbag critics are conflicted by economics or practice", speculative & diminishing the weight of the critics at least. Simply, "It has attracted..." is more neutral and less speculative. "The website contains many types of information related to consumer advice and strategies." seems somewhat redundant, especially with the 2nd sentence, and a little promo'l.--I'clast 12:50, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
The statement is about as neutral and factual as it can get, since if its mission didn't involve such criticisms, it wouldn't get criticized. That sentence could just as well have been written by any of its critics. I think your sensitivity to the subject makes you read into it something that readers wouldn't. Give them some credit. I understand the feeling and also tend to read things into such statements because I'm sensitive to the subject.
The matter is discussed in depth in the article, and therefore needs to be mentioned briefly in the lead. It also provides the logical (and only) connection between Quackwatch's active criticisms and the responses from those criticized, which is very understandable, isn't it?
It is also necessary to briefly mention the type of content in the lead, because it is also described in depth in the article. Such an omission would be rather odd. I'll try to modify it a bit in both of the places you mention:
  • Quackwatch is the primary website of Quackwatch, Inc., and is part of a network of websites dealing with related subjects. Its stated purpose is to "combat health-related frauds, myths, fads, fallacies, and misconduct," and its primary focus is on what it defines as quackery-related information that it claims is difficult or impossible to get elsewhere. [1] Quackwatch is operated by Stephen Barrett, M.D., a retired psychiatrist, with input from his board of advisors and help from numerous volunteers. [2] The website contains articles and other types of information related to consumer advice and strategies. While the website has won numerous awards and is quoted favorably in the press and medical journals, it is also a very controversial website. Since part of its mission involves criticisms of various practices and the organizations and persons who practice them, it has attracted numerous critics who claim those criticisms are unbalanced, unreliable, and/or misplaced.
I think we've come a long way from the minimalistic original -- "it is not free from criticism and controversy." Now the whole thing is written with better prose and flow, including making logical sense. People don't criticize Quackwatch in a vacuum. Quackwatch's actions attract criticism, and that's basically what it says in an NPOV manner. It does this by not implying that the criticisms are unjustified and motivated by attempts to protect cherished nonsensical beliefs, established dubious traditions, and scams (which Quackwatch, Barrett, skeptics, MDs, and mainstream scientists would think). That is not stated, although it could be. I just don't think the lead needs to get into that. -- Fyslee 20:34, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Uhhhh, Fyslee let me help you with factuality on that last sentence in the long form:
It has has also been characterized as "harsh" (Forbes), unbalanced, unreliable, and/or misplaced (more like JK). Since part of its mission involves criticisms of various practices and the organizations and persons who practice them, many claim those criticisms are unfair, erroneous, wrongheaded, scurrilous, commercially motivated, zealous, and even ...(either beyond good taste or ill advised if applied to individuals)...
This 1st sentence would give sourceable criticism from those that do not fit the practices/economic criteria, and then more accurately address the competitively conflicted positions. I might add some of the 2nd sentence positions could actually qualify for the first sentence, I'm just too lazy to source them right now. Even ardent QW admirers will sometimes describe QW as "provocative" or "partisan". I prefer the previous short form.--I'clast 21:24, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree with I'clast, shorter is better. Also regarding the combating health fraud thing. When it has been proven as a health fraud that it is fine however it is not because QW says it is fraud that it is automatically so. The editors of QW have their legal opinions but , as as been demonstrated by the courts, their legal opinion is not necessarily upheld by the legal system in the USA. For NPOV it should be preceded by a qualifier such as "what it considers". Also the intro should not contain editorial text but simply reflect the main sourced items in the article, in abbreviated form. NATTO 22:51, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
It looks like we are basically in agreement: QW is very controversial, the lead should have NPOV modifiers (which it does), and the criticisms are given much better coverage and recognition. Other significant topics of the article that aren't mentioned at all in the present lead are now also briefly mentioned, and therefore the proposed version above lives up to the requirements for WP:LEAD, IOW it can stand alone as a short summary of the whole article. Other discussion points mentioned above are further developments that would be a part of the article. Any objection to replacing the current lead with the improved version? The current one contains peripherally unimportant facts and neglects major ones. -- Fyslee 09:28, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Revision of the Lead: continued

As described by Dematt below, the basic division of the process sounds good.

Right now the proposed version has this:

"The website contains articles and other types of information related to consumer advice and strategies."

Once the article has other significant content that can justify mention in the WP:LEAD, we can add it to the lead, but we should avoid getting into specific details there.

Here's the current proposition:

  • Quackwatch is the primary website of Quackwatch, Inc., and is part of a network of websites dealing with related subjects. Its stated purpose is to "combat health-related frauds, myths, fads, fallacies, and misconduct," and its primary focus is on what it defines as quackery-related information that it claims is difficult or impossible to get elsewhere. [1] Quackwatch is operated by Stephen Barrett, M.D., a retired psychiatrist, with input from his board of advisors and help from numerous volunteers. [2] The website contains articles and other types of information related to consumer advice and strategies. While the website has won numerous awards and is quoted favorably in the press and medical journals, it is also a very controversial website. Since part of its mission involves criticisms of various practices and the organizations and persons who practice them, it has attracted numerous critics who claim those criticisms are unbalanced, unreliable, and/or misplaced.

Can we get a decision on this now? -- Fyslee 17:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I think that was a great choice of words. I would move the sentence to create a slight improvement of the flow:
  • Quackwatch is the primary website of Quackwatch, Inc., and is part of a network of websites dealing with related subjects. Its stated purpose is to "combat health-related frauds, myths, fads, fallacies, and misconduct," and its primary focus is on what it defines as quackery-related information that it claims is difficult or impossible to get elsewhere.[1] The website also contains articles and other types of information related to consumer advice and strategies. Quackwatch is operated by Stephen Barrett, M.D., a retired psychiatrist, with input from his board of advisors and help from numerous volunteers. [2] While the website has won numerous awards and is quoted favorably in the press and medical journals, it is also a very controversial website. Since part of its mission involves criticisms of various practices and the organizations and persons who practice them, it has attracted numerous critics who claim those criticisms are unbalanced, unreliable, and/or misplaced.
That works for me, but we need Robert's POV on this, as he was the one that proposed it. I agree that we can wait to add to the article before impementing.
--Dematt 18:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
What I am hoping for is that the version above can be implemented now. I believe it mentions all the significant topics in the article, and should satisfy the critics, since it is deliberately proposed and worded BY ME to give much greater coverage of the critical section of the article. The current version doesn't do that section justice. (See [4])
When other subjects (as proposed by Robert) are incorporated into the article, they can then be mentioned in the lead. It should be possible to make a decision now, without waiting for more material to be added to the article. -- Fyslee 18:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Your move does improve the flow. Thanks! Is it a fair, accurate, and comprehensive description of the article that can get people interested in reading further? If so, then we should be able to make the substitution. -- Fyslee 18:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, since I am slowly feeling the suction into this article:) I do see that you have added another sentence to the mix from the version that is currently on the page. I see no real problem with the content of the above version, but I think I would make some small changes to the last section:
  • Quackwatch is the primary website of Quackwatch, Inc., and is part of a network of websites dealing with related subjects. Its stated purpose is to "combat health-related frauds, myths, fads, fallacies, and misconduct," and its primary focus is on what it defines as quackery-related information that it claims is difficult or impossible to get elsewhere.[1] The website also contains articles and other types of information related to consumer advice and strategies. Quackwatch is operated by Stephen Barrett, M.D., a retired psychiatrist, with input from his board of advisors and help from numerous volunteers. [2] The website has won numerous awards and is quoted extensively in the press and medical journals. Critics complain that the site is unbalanced and should be considered unreliable.
This is handles both the good and the bad succinctly and concisely without apology or excuse. I don't see how anyone could not be satisfied with it, and at the same time I don't see how anyone could be satisfied with it, so it must be NPOV;) What do you think? --Dematt 20:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Complain sounds whiny. How about: Some critics feel that the site is...? Levine2112 20:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Agree, how about taking out some, so... "Critics feel the site is ..." --Dematt 20:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable to me. With those changes, it should look like this:

  • Quackwatch is the primary website of Quackwatch, Inc., and is part of a network of websites dealing with related subjects. Its stated purpose is to "combat health-related frauds, myths, fads, fallacies, and misconduct," and its primary focus is on what it defines as quackery-related information that it claims is difficult or impossible to get elsewhere.[1] The website also contains articles and other types of information related to consumer advice and strategies. Quackwatch is operated by Stephen Barrett, M.D., a retired psychiatrist, with input from his board of advisors and help from numerous volunteers. [2] The website has won numerous awards and is quoted extensively in the press and medical journals. Critics feel the site is unbalanced and should be considered unreliable.

Is that satisfactory to you guys? -- Fyslee 20:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Works for me! Good job. --Dematt 20:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I just feel that the idea that the website contains (general?) health advice should be mentioned here rather than just" consumer advice and strategies". I must say how much I am now enjoying the feeling of working with my fellow editors rather than arguing with you. Actually, it's tremendous. It's a pleasure. Thank you. Robert2957 20:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

That's the whole reason I keep writing here. I enjoy working with intelligent people. Even if we don't agree, we can usually work something out with NPOV. There are a few I would rather not work with, but I can see you have real potential to add a new POV to the mix and keep it interesting. Thanks for taking the time to explain your POV.
As far as "health advice"; does he give other advice besides health stuff? --Dematt 20:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I just think health advice should be mentioned here as well as "consumer advice and strategies"Robert2957 20:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Now let's work with what needs to go into the article and then we can revisit this sentence once we find out what it is actually going to be about. Fyslee, you could probably save us a lot of time researching, where would you place this? Do you think we should consider creating a new section and make a couple of NPOV statements, or find a spot here? --Dematt 21:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I suggest making a new section at the bottom (above the references) and starting the development there. I'll make it now. -- Fyslee 23:37, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I can now see how wrong I was just to plunge into editing without prior discussion. I had always just plunged in before now, but all my previous edits had just been small pieces of factual information which woud arouse no controversy. It is late here in the UK, so I'm off to bed. Robert2957 21:01, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Robert, it's a pleasure to work with editors of all persuasions, when we share common goals (writing an encyclopedia that covers all sides of an issue or subject), assume good faith, and treat each other with respect. I am not perfect in this matter and have failed many times. My bad. One learns with time here, and this is a process that develops character.
I understand your wish to include the "health advice" subject. If we have covered the subject in some depth in the article (more than just a single mention), then it can be included now, but I don't think we have as yet. That time will come, so just be patient and start working on developing that content. Then we can mention it in the lead.
When developing that content, we must keep in mind that such advice is only tangential to the organization's (and website's) main purpose -- dealing with quackery and healthfraud. It is only a tree in the big forest. It is in the nature of things that Quackwatch cannot point out the "counterfeit" without mentioning the "real thing." The site also has the usual disclaimers which sites that focus on health information have, sites that promote all kinds of quackery and weird ideas. (In their case the forest is wrong, with some trees being right.)
More info: It also qualifies for Health On the Net Foundation (HONcode) membership, something many of those sites don't do, or they violate its principles if they have received it. It is also affiliated with the Natural Medicines Comprehensive Database, and has endorsed it. Here's an interesting search [5].
Now it's late here in Denmark, but it's also Friday night and I'm a night owl.....;-) -- Fyslee 21:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

May I make the substitution now? We seem to be agreed on the new version. -- Fyslee 21:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I think you can go ahead and put the new synthesis in while keeping in mind that we might want to make minor changes to accomodate Robert's contention.
Along that line, if Quackwatch does give some health advice, that is not a bad thing. Nor would it be bad if he gave advice about lawn mowers, etc.. It would just be another feature of the web site. Now, if he said "all people who give health advice are bad" and then he gave health advice, that would be a notable contradiction. --Dematt 21:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Looks good to me. Levine2112 22:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Thank you gentlemen. Future refinements will of course be necessary, but for now I think this will be an improvement. -- Fyslee 22:40, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed Robert2957 08:29, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

May I point out these facts?

I would like to get certain facts onto the Wikipedia site either on the Stephen Barrett page or on the Quackwatch page. My attempts to do so so far have met with objections from other editors. The entries I would now like to put onto the Quackwatch page are :

  • Quackwatch advocates the use of folic acid to lower homocysteine levels to protect against heart disease. [6] The recent NORVIT trial[7], however, suggests that this may not be a good idea.
  • Quackwatch includes the Journal of Naturopathic Medicine on his list of nonrecommended periodicals [8] but quotes a study in that journal in a jointly authored piece [9] about the Gerson therapy which he criticises.
  • Quackwatch contains an article dated 1999 by Varro E Tyler "False Tenets Of Paraherbalism" [10] in which is stated: " However, no substantial evidence that ginseng enhances sexual experience or potency has been published in the scientific literature. " However, Hong and others published:" A double-blind crossover study evaluating the efficacy of korean red ginseng in patients with erectile dysfunction: a preliminary report." J Urol. 2002 Nov;168(5):2070-3. which concluded that ginseng could help with erectile dysfunction.

[11]

Editors have removed the first two of these contributions (I haven't chanced my arm with the third) on two principal grounds. Most of the details can be found here and here

One is that the issues I raise are too minute and that I am attempting to hold Quackwatch up to standards it doesn't claim to maintain. I say that most people consultng Wikipedia about Quackwatch will be wanting to decide whether they should accept Quackwatch as being as authoritative as Medline or the Mayo Clinic. And the facts I point out are relevant to deciding this issue. Quackwatch's mission statement says in part: :"Its primary focus is on quackery-related information that is difficult or impossible to get elsewhere." This is claiming very high authority and status. QUACKWATCH offers advice in all the following areas: Antioxidants and other Phytochemicals: Current Scientific Perspective Cardiovascular Disease Risk Factors Homocysteine: A Risk Factor Worth Considering Dietary Guidelines for Americans Dietary Guidelines for Infants Dietary Reference Intakes: New Guidelines for Calcium and Related Nutrients Dietary Supplements: Appropriate Use Exercise Choosing and Using Equipment Guidelines (to be posted) Fluoridation: Don't Let the Poisonmongers Scare You! (4 articles) Hormone-Replacement Therapy Immunization: Common Misconceptions Low-Fat Eating: Practical Tips Tobacco-Related News Vegetarianism: Healthful But Not Necessary Weight-Control Guidelines

The other main objection has been that I am here guilty of presenting Original Research. I am not. According to the official policy:" Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article in order to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research. "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article."

All I am trying to do is to present sourced referenced and verifiable facts.

Before anyone comments, I would wish to make certain things clear:

I do not question the good faith either of the Quackwatch website or of Dr. Stephen Barrett. I have no time for most of the people Dr. Stephen Barrett criticises. I would always take into account what Quackwatch says when deciding whether to take any alternative medicine myself, though I wouldn't necessarily always go long with it. So, what do people think ? Robert2957 07:35, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, so you have one 2002 "preliminary report" regarding one particular ginseng product and "erectile dysfunction." That's nice, and might be appropriate in a ginseng and sexual dysfunction article (there probably are both here). Is there more conclusive evidence than that? (Not that it's relevant here, but just curious.)
Just to bring you a little more up to date (2004) on the Quackwatch/NCAHF coverage of the Ginseng/sexual enhancement issue. Here's the newest comment I could find:
  • "Ginseng may help some men with erectile dysfunction, but only in large amounts of a specially processed form of the herb not usually found in these supplements." (2004) [12]
I hope that sheds some light on the situation. If you take a look at the website search, you'll quickly notice that the coverage of ginseng is secondary to the mission purpose, which is to expose exaggerated claims for many products, which in this case also happen to contain ginseng among many other substances. This is the stuff we get in our mailboxes every day. It's called spam. -- Fyslee 14:58, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Quackwatch and folic acid advice

I agree with both Robert and Fyslee. I think Robert is addressing another feature of quackwatch that is perhaps notable; that it gives dietary advice as well, but the specific statement related to heart may not be appropriate for the lead. However, maybe something can be worked in. This is the way it was last written;

  • "It also offers advice on a range of health including how to consult your doctor and makes available some of Dr. Stephen Barrett's opinions related to dietary supplements to protect against heart disease."

I haven't looked into Quackwatch much so I don't know whether this is true, but maybe a less specific sentence is all that is needed in the lead, like;

  • "It also offers advice on health related issues."

Then, later in the article, Robert could include his more specific information in a NPOV manner.

It's a start, any help? --Dematt 16:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The basic division of the process sounds good. Actually this subject should be continued above right here, where such phrases describing content can be considered.
Right now the proposed version has this.... naw, read it above.....;-) Fyslee 17:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Bolen

Based on this edit by Fyslee (which I believe to a good one), I think we should take a look at the entire Bolen paragraph. As Fyslee said, this is not an article about Bolen (or Quackpotwatch) and yet all that is in this paragraph is Barrett's and Bolen's description of who Bolen is and what he does. It would be better to give Bolen's criticism of Quackwatch (not Barrett) here. However, do recognize that the idea when "Quackpotwatch" article was deleted from Wikipedia for non-notability was to merge some of it into the "Quackwatch" article. So I feel it would be better to roughly say that according to Quackpotwatch, a critical website written by Tim Bolen, <insert QPW's criticism here>... Sound all right? Levine2112 17:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I just made the update myself. Given the pending lawsuits and controversy, I made it a point to leave out the personal attacks from either side (Bolen or Barrett) and kept it limited to Bolen's characterization of Quackwatch... the topic at hand. Levine2112 19:29, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Admin noticeboard post

This has gone on long enough. I've posted to the admin noticeboard regarding Ilena's persistent disruptive editing. MastCell 18:42, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ a b c d e f g h i Quackwatch - Mission Statement
  2. ^ a b c d e f g Rosen, Marjorie (October 1998). Interview with Stephen Barrett, M.D. Biography Magazine
  3. ^ a b Pennsylvania Department of State - Corporations