Talk:Purim

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Contents

[edit] Purim plays: reference

I see that no one has really been adding references for this article. Since mine is for a single paragraph, I'm putting it here rather than in the article proper. The material I added about 18th and 19th century Purim plays as precursors to Yiddish theater comes from pages 26-28 of:

  • Bercovici, Israil, O sută de ani de teatru evriesc în România ("One hundred years of Yiddish/Jewish theater in Romania"), 2nd Romanian-language edition, revised and augmented by Constantin Măciucă. Editura Integral (an imprint of Editurile Universala), Bucharest (1998). ISBN 9739827225. The first Romanian edition was 1982, Editura Kriterion. There also was a 1976 edition, also from Editura Kriterion, in Yiddish: Hundert ior idiş teater in Rumenie. Bercovici did his own translation into Romanian.

That book mentions several specific surviving published scripts of Purim plays; this is discussed in a little more detail at Yiddish theater. Jmabel | Talk 00:59, Jan 20, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Other Purims

The following was recently anonymously added:

In modern times, the death of Joseph Stalin, who was said to have been planning an extermination of Soviet Jewry, as well as Baruch Goldstein's killing of Arabs in the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron on Purim Day are said to be Purim Katan as well.

I've never heard of the Stalin matter, and I believe I would have, and I can't believe that anyone much less murderous than Goldstein himself would hold this opinion about his actions. If there is no clear citation for this within 24 hours, I will revert, and I won't object if someone else reverts sooner. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:43, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)

I've never heard of it either, and a quick search revealed nothing to support it. I'm reverting it now. Jayjg (talk) 19:27, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Too late, someone else already did it! Jayjg (talk) 19:30, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Are you guys serious? I didn't add the thing about Stalin, and don't know anything about the Goldstein incident at mearat hamachpela wrt Purim, but this is the thing about Stalin (which I thought everybody knew!): he was planning to "finish what Hitler started", since he was so pissed off about the "betrayal" in Israel (not becoming a soviet satellite) as well as a number of political intrigueries (to invent a word) w/in the CCCP. While I don't believe that any date was set for what he considered his impending magnum opus, all the Jewish communities in the CCCP knew of his plans, and were scared crapless. Before he could bring his plans to fruition, he fell into a coma, three days before Purim. He is widely rumored to have been poisoned, possibly by his personal physician, who it is rumored, was Jewish. Anyways, three days after lapsing into a coma, he expired. On Purim. Now. I told you the story. I've never heard of it being a purim qatan, rather another purim miracle. Notice that I haven't brought forth any documentation, nor made any presentation that the story is anything other than myth... All I've done is relay it the way I heard it, many long years ago in my childhood. That notwithstanding, I decided to go to Google and do a quick search with the string "+Stalin +Purim", and it turned up a number of hits (some of which indicate that the details as I've relayed them are incorrect), including:
And this article, in which "Rashin", sumdumguy, advocates celebrating a purim qatan for the event (although when exactly his proposes to schedule it isn't made clear:
Tomer TALK 01:56, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
The claim was that they were Purim katans, the links (which I don't think strongly support your point in any event) don't say that. Jayjg (talk) 14:33, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I don't follow. What point did you think I was trying to make? The only point I was trying to make is that people should know the story. I said nothing about including it in the article. If I made any point with respect to the article, it was specifically that some guy Rashin advocates celebrating a purim qatan, without specification, to comemmorate Stalin's demise. I never portrayed his opinion as one that should be followed, nor one that had any sway whatsoever in any circles anywhere. My only job here was to relate the story, which I did. Then, curious, I did a websearch, which I shared with y'all. Then I posted some links that lead to other peoples' telling of the story, which does not jibe with mine, which I thought I pretty clearly indicated, was likely due to error in the details as I was telling them. That said, I'm still rather mystified as to what "they" might include as purim qtanim, besides the death of Stalin, yimach shemo. I have no such axe to grind, nor can I figure out how it could be that anyone should think I might. Tomer TALK 20:04, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
I don't think you have an axe to grind; sorry if I gave you that impression. Jayjg (talk) 20:10, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Stalin died on 5 March 1953 which corresponds to 18 Adar 5713. 5713 was not a leap year. He fell ill on 1st March- 14 Adar, Purim Gadol. Cockneyite 02:42, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Purim and the Hanging of Ten Nazis

In Megilas Esther, there is a Large Vuv, and a Small Tuf, Shin and Zayyin. Together they point to the year 5707. The event happened Hoshana Rabba, 1946 - 5707.

Hermann Goering committed suicide the night before, leaving only 10 Nazis to be hung. Julius Stricher shouted "Purim Fest 1946."

In Esther 9:13 she asks Achashvairosh to grant "Gam Machar" on which there is a commentary saying not NOW but a FUTURE tomorrow.

("There is a tomorrow that is now, and tomorrow which is later" - referring to history repeating itself).

This is noted in an article by Rabbi Shraga Simmons, Aish HaTorah (aish.com), which also mentions that Haman had 11 children, 10 sons and a daughter. The daughter comitted suicide after she dumped garbage on her father, whom she mistook for Mordechai.

We know what the Vishnitzer Rebbe had to say about the small letters. Does that make it suitable for Wikipedia? I doubt it.
You discredit yourself by trying to derive some positive meaning from the Goldstein incident in Hebrew. Do not reinsert this material. JFW | T@lk 19:43, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Stalin and Purim

The dates are clear. The matter of correlation vs. cause and effect may need clarification, but anything that had the potential to affect more Jews than lived in Shushan at the time of Purim is significant. Someone more talented in terms of writing skill is perhaps the better choice of author, but there is a notion called "Bemakom sheh-ain ish." I will gladly take a back seat to the "ish" (or isha) who does a better job. 15 Jun 07

[edit] Megillah Reading

"each mention of Mordechai is accompanied by whistling" - I've never seen nor heard of this custom, and I hear the megillah every year and go to yeshiva. A person must hear the entire reading, every single word. The noisemaking is restricted to the mention of Haman. Please cite evidence or delete it.

Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make whatever changes you feel are needed. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in! (Although there are some reasons why you might like to...) The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 17:47, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
I've never encountered that either, though I have encountered toasting to Mordechai every time his name is mentioned. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:15, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Songs of Purim

anybody know anything about purim songs, I remember something that started with the first few words of the megillah but I don;t remeber where or the tune.

I have never heard of ani purim stated in the article. I hear of the following songs:
  • Meshenicnas adar marbim besimcha "as [the month of] Adar start joy increases". based on the talmud
  • chayav einish lebesumai ad deloyah... "a person is obligated to rejoice until he does not know the difference between haman and mordechi". Also talmudic
  • shoshanat yaakov "the rose of Jacob"
  • Al HaNissim ve'al ha'porkan "for the miricles.." is added in Birkat Hamazon
I dont' know how to write the tune online Jon513 23:16, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi guys, great article, just wanted to say that Ani purim is a very well-known song. Omer

Never heard of it. Where is it found, Omer? JFW | T@lk 18:47, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

"Ani Purim" is a popular Israeli children's song for Purim. It is found in most Israeli collections of festival songs. The ones Jon mentions above are more adult songs sung on Purim in the orthodox Jewish world. Sam 01:03, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I have heard of it, although I cannot imagine it being sung at a synagogue, as it is in the class of modern nursery rhymes/songs such as perhaps 'Frosty the Snowman' or 'Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer'. But I'm leaving it there.

Hi folks, read the article and I notice a big chunk missing, the part about the drinking! Obviously, that's not what purim's all about, but it is a great excuse to get drunk and very merry and a local purim party, singing the greatest purim songs. Someone should add the custom of drinking.

[edit] Significance of Purim

This article makes it very clear that Purim is an important holiday on the Jewish calendar and is based on historical events. If you look at the article on Book of Esther, however, you will see that that Book is little more than a fairy tale which is based on Babylonian mythology. The latter article needs to be seriously cleaned up. Yoninah 23:23, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image

Someone must have a gragger that they can photograph and upload to commons under the appropriate license? This image is a nice one at sub-thumbnail size, but even at its natural resolution it's got some serious aliasing problems.... -Harmil 21:47, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Date of Purim

The actual date of Purim should be posted in both the Hebrew calendar aswell as the Gregorian calendar as can be seen in Yom Kippur. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.79.39.127 (talk • contribs) 27 May 2006.

the holiday infobox has the ability to put in gregorian dates in the infobox. This has been done in Yom Kippur and it should be done here. I do not think that it is a good idea to list the dates as has been done there and I intend to change it. Jon513 11:33, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Violence

Azurelove (talk · contribs) has repeatedly inserted the following content:

Violence Related to Purim
Baruch Goldstein went on a shooting spree at the Ibrahim Mosque killing 29 Muslims worshipping while injuring 125 others, on Purim in 1994, which coincided with the First Friday Prayer of the Holy Month of Ramadhan that year.
ISM peace activist Rachel Corrie was bulldozered on March 16, 2003 a day before Purim.
Anti-Christian activity usually takes place at Purim, during which Christians lock themselves in according to Daniel Rosing. [1]
According to the chairman of the council of settlements - head group of all settlements in occupied West Bank and formerly Gaza - Benzi Lieberman, Palestinians are Amalek. He is quoted in the New Yorker as saying “The Palestinians are Amalek!”.[1]

In my mind certain events are historically correct, but to string them together to insinuate that Israel and Jews use Purim to kill their enemies is unacceptable. I urge Azurelove to provide supportive arguments here before attempting to reinsert stated content. JFW | T@lk 07:49, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with JFW, but I presume that this is exactly why Azurelove included the reference to Rosling, which supports his contention. I have no way of verifying whether or not "Barket in Haaretz, October 12, 2004" actually said such a thing, so I don't know whether he can be excluded on those grounds. I suspect that the best way to deal with this is not by deleting the section, but by adding additional material to demonstrate its fallacy. The idea of Jewish Anti-Christian activity, or that they lock themselves indoors at Purim-time, sounds about as credible as the blood libels. But can I document it? No, I cannot. But I sure hope someone else can. --Keeves 09:56, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I read the new yorker article. It is very clear that no one the author quotes believes that the palesinians are litteraly amalek. They are pointing out a common desire of the palestinians and amalek to kill the Jews and that the Jewish responce must be to fight back. The use of the term amalek to mean evil is common (I personally have been call a reincarnation of amalek!). As for Rosing the full quote is as follows:
It may be added that Daniel Rossing, a former advisor on Christian affairs to Israel's Religious Affairs Ministry, recently told a reporter that antiChristian incidents tend to occur at "certain times of the year, such as during the Purim holiday." Rossing, in fact, knows Christians in Israel "who lock themselves indoors during the entire Purim holiday."
That is not a quote from the orginal haartz article (which I doubt the poster read) but from an article quoting the article which is the link provoided. I don't think we have to give these addition any further attension. Jon513 11:51, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Just a thought. But if violence during Purim is occurring on a regular enough basis perhaps it should be included on the Wikipedia page. Goldstein was a religious fundementalist, and the fact that Purim and Eid were on the same day as the death of the 29 Muslims, and ultimately himself is no coincidence. garethppls 21:44, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
the concerned raised here is lack of sourcing, not lack of notability. As it stand now it is little more than a conspiracy theory. Jon513 23:03, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
A conspiracy theory that Goldstein or others have killed on Purim? Hmm even if it is a conspiracy theory you could have a section on violence being related to Purim. Or how violence is thought to be related to Purim. garethppls 18:31, 9 September 2007.

[edit] POV/ original research

On the other hand, Jewish philosophy and scriptural commentators believe that the reason for the omission of God's name is in order to emphasize the very point that God remained hidden throughout this series of events, but was nonetheless present and played a large role in the outcome of the story. Furthermore, this lesson can be taken into consideration on a much larger scale: Throughout Jewish history, and especially in exile today, God's presence has been felt more at certain times than at others. Megilat Esther (and the omission of God's name in it) serves to show us that although God may not be conspicuously present at times, he nevertheless plays (and has played) an important role in our lives and in the future of the Jewish nation.

I'm not saying it is wrong, but it seems to me to beg for citation, and these views should be attributed rather than in Wikipedia's narrative voice: presumably, for example, "serves to show us" should not be in Wikipedia's narrative voice. - Jmabel | Talk 05:42, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Date of Purim, 2

There should be a table of Purim dates plus-minus 10 years and the way of calculating it from Gregorian calendar and a reference to the place with this information. `'mikka 03:43, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

this used to be part of the infobox I don't know why it was removed. Jon513 22:15, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] removed additon

I removed an addition by 207.69.140.35 (talk · contribs) they were:

Stalin, who whose "doctors plot" accusation was to lead to his finishing with the Soviet Union what Hitler had done, fell into a coma on Purim 5713 and died days later, 18 Adar, March 5, 1953.
An attempt to kill Jews on Purim was thwarted by Dr. Goldstein's killing of Arabs, some of whom, it later turned out, had hidden weapons under prayer carpets in Mearat Hamachpayla. Although many claimed that Dr. Goldstein had "snapped" due to the pressure of dealing with a father and son who were murdered by (admittedly other) Arabs, his actions saved lives, albeit at a cost of some who possibly were not part of the plot to murder Jews.
Analogous to the suicide of Haman's daughter, one of the 11 Nazis scheduled to be hung, Hermann Goering committed suicide the night before, leaving only 10 Nazis to be hung. Julius Stricher shouted "Purim Fest 1946." The link to Purim is that there is are clues to the actions of both Goering and Stricher in the Megila.
There is a famous biblical commentary written by a scholar who was trapped under a beam that fell on him when a local gun powder site (maintained in a Jewish area, possibly to minimize danger to non-Jews), exploded. The scholar took a vow that, if he was rescued, he would spend his days writing what he wrote. [Citation needed, saw it in the introduction of volume 1 of a set that an adult relative had received, as a teenager, as a prize in a contest]. If I recall correctly, the family of the scholar named a certain date "gun powder Purim."

As all of it was unsourced I removed it. More importantly the author confuses the idea of Local Purim - found in major books of halakha, and anything good that happened to the Jews. As far the the last reference to a gun powder Purim, it might be Avraham Danzig and the story can be found very close to the end of the Chayei Adam. Still, I don't trust my memory; someone would have to look that up to include it. Jon513 15:22, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree the Stalin link is completely tentative and - while interesting - is not suitable in a general purpose encyclopedia unless it can be supported with rock-hard sources.
The Goldstein link is sheer apologetics and should not be included under any circumstance.
Awaiting more evidence with regards to the Gun Powder Purim. JFW | T@lk 08:34, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1946 songs

Let's discuss what needs to be done, if anything, to accommodate this addition: [2] [3] by an anon. Please do not insert editorial notes in the article, discuss here at the talk page. Thanks. ←Humus sapiens ну? 20:14, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

TALK discussion: there is Shoshanat Yaakov, which is sung right after Megilla reading. There are the songs that are based on texts (Mishna/Gemara or Tefilla). Then come the songs that come from different time periods, not all in in Hebrew, which may reflect different societies/cultures.

The SONGS section in the Purim article does not make room for "Once There Was a Wicked Wicked Man"
Ani Purim
Utsu Etsa (in the Siddur, the words before include "SHOAH" - pre Holocaust, it may not have seemed to have a link to Purim)

Omitting "Once There Was.." would be like omitting "I had a little dreidel, I made it out of clay" from the list of Chanukah songs. Admittedly someone from the Middle East might not consider it a Chanukah song, but then again someone from Syria might consider the phrase "Chaverim Kol Yisroel" to have no place in the monthly Blessing of The New Moon, which is part of the Ashkenaz Siddur.

Ve-nahfoch is also not in any of the above, and is more "Purim" than Mishenichnas.

A more honest approach would be to make a stub article named PURIM SONGS and initially populate it with some of the submitted items, reformatted to Wiki standards.

20 Jun 07


[edit] Wales (More Recent) Purim

Jimmy Wales seems to support mentioning the Purim-connected death of S-T-A-L-I-N. As quoted in http://www.destinationcrm.com/articles/default.asp?ArticleID=7395 (SIDEBAR: No One Likes a Tattletale), he criticizes those who
'delete disagreeable content without openly saying, "I am so-and-so. I believe this information is incorrect. Here's an article that shares our side of the story." Soon enough, the line gets put back in; the firm deletes it again; it gets put back in; and so on. In the end, everyone is mad at each other, and out come the lawsuits.' To put it succinctly:
the text that Jimmy Wales suggests should not be deleted reads-
S-t-a-l-i-n, fell into a coma on Purim 5713 and died days later, 18 Adar, March 5, 1953.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.236.177.224 (talk • contribs)

I removed the above from the article and put it hereJon513 (talk) 10:28, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Per Mr. Wales, the succinct 1-liner has been restored under ===More Recent=== ([User:4.236.177.224] 10:53, 3 January 2008)

First of all, Jimbo never said anything of the sort in the source you quoted. All he said was that people should be polite and talk about changes instead of reverting back and forth. Second, Jimbo does not rule wikipedia like a king stating what should and shouldn't be in an encyclopedia. He guides wikipedia by general principles. Jimbo rarely gets involved in content disputes and when he does it is almost always because of slander or the like.
Whether Stalin falling into a coma on purim should be in the article has already been discussed. I believe that the consensus was that an event that happens to fall on purim does not in itself make it related to this article.
If there was a Jewish community that celebrated his falling into a coma as a purim katan than it can be included in the section Other "Purims" otherwise it is just trivia. Jon513 (talk) 16:08, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


One can find people with numbers on their hands who put on Tefilin. One is more hard pressed to find Russian Jews who are their counterparts. Their surviving relatives may be among those who are first rediscovering Judaism and may still be in need of rediscovering Purim itself. That so many Jews were saved on Purim 5713 is not Trivia. The number saved may exceed the Jewish population of Shushan. ([User:4.236.177.224] 11:16, 3 January 2008)

If a country's stock market crashes on passover should that be in the article Passover? No, it would be in it's own unrelated article. Is there any relationship between the holiday of Purim (not the date of purim) and stalin? do you have any sources that make this connection, or have you made it yourself? Jon513 (talk) 16:24, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


Now that the first "Russian" Minyan in the United States, formerly housed in Brooklyn at a Young Israel, has its own building (Ocean Avenue, between Ave L & Ave M), perhaps we're approaching the counterpart of the 1967 Six-Day War, before which it was hard to find many people willing to talk about the Holocaust. SURELY THE HOLOCAUST IS NOT TRIVIAL. Gedolim have compared the 70 years of Communism to the 70 years between the first and second Temples, and Rav Pam ZT"L said at one of the dinners for Be'er Hagolah that if not for miracles during those years there would be fewer Torah observant Jews in America (meaning those whose present day families came from those not murdered as a result of Purim 5713). ([User:4.236.177.224] 11:37, 3 January 2008)

Still isn't this more appropriate for History of the Jews in Russia and the Soviet Union not here? Jon513 (talk) 16:48, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


I don't dispute that the bulk of the details could be better placed there than here, but a one line mention strongly deserves to be placed here ([User:4.236.177.224] 13:06, 3 January 2008)
Why?! It has to do with the date; it has absolutely nothing to do with the holiday. Jon513 (talk) 18:15, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

The Stalin thing is an urban legend that keeps popping up. Nobody celebrates Stalin's death on Purim. Insisting that Jimbo Wales would support its inclusion is simply incorrect; the quote is not specifically about this subject. JFW | T@lk 19:25, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


Now we're talking HOLOCAUST DENIAL. People were killed. Jews were killed. You're denying "poised to launch a post-Holocaust holocaust of his own." IS THIS something that the person you call Jimbo would want to defend? ([User:4.236.177.224] 14:19, 3 January 2008)

I think you should reread what JFW said. Jon513 (talk) 20:22, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I did.

People don't celebrate the death of H(Ymach Shmo). People don't celebrate the death of Pharoh/Paro.
Yom Ha-shoah was not widely recognized before the 1967 Six Day War. As there are more Rabbis who are descended from survivors of the "Worker's Paradise" this link to Purim will grow, and no longer be as weak as was the link between the Holocaust and Tisha B'Av &/or Yom Ha-shoah pre-'67.
Wiki is supposed to be inclusive. Stalin was not an Urban Legend.
Jim Wales says post "Here's an article that shares our side of the story."
Post your side if you need to, as Mr. Wales suggests is the proper thing if you want to deny deny deny, but please don't delete. ([User:4.236.177.224] 13:37, 3 January 2008)

I don't think you understand what I am saying. Purim is a holiday that celebrates a historical event in Jewish history. Not everything that happens on the 14th of adar belongs in this article. Jon513 (talk) 21:01, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I Agree. The following statement, nonetheless is true:


Although some people do (http://www.jewishmag.com/65mag/stalin/stalin.htm) and some people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Purim#Wales_.28More_Recent.29_Purim) don't see a direct connection between Purim, which celebrates The Intervention of The Hidden Hand, and Joseph Stalin's stroke on Purim 5713/1953, Stalin's death 4 days later passes the trivia test http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jfdwolff/Editorial_policies#The_trivia_test of "this event made a lasting impact on the public." ([User:4.236.177.224] 16:13, 3 January 2008)

The article itself points out that it is not known when exactly Stalin died, and there is no reason to believe that it was March 1 (Purim). Also as it was not announced until march 5 the Jews could not have celebrated that year on Purim for Stalin's death (as the article implies) and there is no reason to believe that there was a celebration the next Purim by the Russian Jews especially as they were still in a very difficult situation.
I am not saying that Stalin's death is not significant - it is covered extensively in Stalin#Death and History of the Jews in Russia and the Soviet Union#After World War II, I am saying that it is not automatically connected to Purim just because he might have fallen into a coma on Purim. Jon513 (talk) 21:50, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
To clarify - the statement is not that Stalin died Purim, but rather that the date of the party and the stroke from which he did not recover to carry out his documented plans happened Purim 5713/1953. This is sufficient to justify at least a ONE LINE in the article on Purim.

Somewhere there is a Commentary that we do not know how evil were the plans of a particular Biblical evil person, but he knew and we therefore must be Thankful for being saved.

Since this article, unlike (sadly) that on Book of Esther, is from a religiously Jewish point of view, this ONE LINE mention is required, to be true to all of the work that has been put in to date on it. This is the place for that ONE LINE. ([User:4.236.177.224] 20:44, 3 January 2008)

[edit] GENOCIDE or Genocide or genocide

I AM ASKING YOU:R U CELEBRATING PURIM? Y? UPON BIBLE IN THIS DAY MORE THAN 75000 HUMAN WERE SACRIFICED, WITHOUT ANY TRIAL, WITHOUT ANY SIN. U KILLED A NATION THAT HAD ACCEPTED U AS AN ASYLUM SEEKER. GENOCIDE HAS A FESTIVAL AND HAPPINESS? WHAT ABOUT The Holocaust?

zandweb (talk) 01:09, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

User reported on WP:ANI.[4] JFW | T@lk 01:16, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Clarification needed

Two passages in the section on "The Purim story" seem inconsistent. I hope someone more knowledgeable can explain it a little better for the benefit of readers like me who are confused.

The article states:

Having found out that Mordechai is Jewish, Haman plans to kill not just Mordechai but the entire Jewish minority in the empire. He obtains Ahasuerus' permission, against payment of ten thousand talents of silver, to execute this plan....

That evening, Ahasuerus and Haman attend Esther's second banquet, at which she reveals that she is Jewish and that Haman is planning to exterminate her people. Ahasuerus orders Haman hanged....

The second passage gives the impression that Esther revealed to Ahasuerus that Haman planned to kill the Jews, but the first passage says that Haman had already obtained Ahasuerus's permission for the plan. If all that was revealed at the banquet was that Esther was Jewish, then perhaps the second passage should read, "...at which she reveals that she is Jewish and that it is her people that Haman is planning to exterminate." Is that what's meant? JamesMLane t c 05:20, 15 March 2008 (UTC)