Talk:Pure laine

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Contents 1 Ironic term 2 Merge? 3 No link 4 WASP 5 deprecation 6 Name of article 7 Requested move 7.1 Survey 7.2 Discussion 8 Prime Minister?

[edit] Ironic term

There is a total derivation from the original meaning here. The wool, used in this expression, means these people come from a poor origin. There's some humour in that expression. It always had that part of humour. No one would love to compare himself to wool, even less if they were thinking they were part of a superior group or race. So this is an ironic term, because it tells the group doesn't compare to something great, but only indicate it is from the same origin. It would be like a non-mixed chinese man who compares himself to pure chinese rice. And not race. That's all. This is a perfect comparison. 207.253.108.195 (talk) 02:50, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merge?

Merge because the French Wikipedia article redirects to Quebec nationalism. 69.201.182.76 09:10, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this is a good idea, because this is a very complex topic that has the potential for a great deal of length. There is a great deal in the English language that has been written about this subject, and of course in French. There is also an article on the "White Anglo Saxon Protestant" issue, and this one is in a similar range. The present article on Quebec nationalism is already quite long (considering WP:SIZE), so that could also be an issue. Laval 09:17, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

It is definitely not a good idea to merge. The current version article presents one possible understanding of "pure laine" along with evidence that it is very unlikely that it be the case for a great number of French Canadians. This would be the genealogist definition I guess. This would be out of place in the article on the vast and complex suject of Quebec nationalism which currently only presents a short historical overview. At some point though, it would be nice if we could find the origin of the expression, its various meanings and how it ended up being used literally in English to try to discredit Quebec nationalism. -- Mathieugp 13:10, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The present article is simply a general sketch, thus it would be good to work towards a fuller understanding of the issue and the political context in modern times. In addition, taking things more into consideration, I am not sure why the French Wikipedia redirects to Quebec nationalism, as the issue and its background has a much broader context, and as you point out, is often used in English media to paint a negative portrait of Quebec nationalists. Though I would also add that it is not so much the "nationalism" that is attacked, but Quebec in general. The stereotype of Quebec (a false one, needless to say) that is too often presented in the English world is that of an isolated, xenophobic society made up of homogeneous French who want to stay "pure." Cases like Herouxville are used to back this up, even though there is evidence to show that there were other factors at work there (especially since not a single immigrant or non-French-Canadian lives there.) While there is going to be a cultural gap between the metropolitan and pastoral civilizations, this is true anywhere in the world, but in Quebec is it not to the extreme of say Belgium or many parts of the United States. As I wrote on Talk:Québécois, many of the articles on Quebec here are in generally poor condition as they reflect only a singular world-view that is not universal in nature and is based mostly on English language sources. One cannot write a history or analysis of Quebec without making use of French language sources. This is true of any civilization. Laval 03:44, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I could not agree more. For the first time in my life, I get the impression of dialoguing with a clone of myself, only you seem to make less typos than I do! ;-) -- 06:03, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No link

By talking about a citizenship law in this article, the autor(s) made a link between this law and racism. But one sentence later, we can read Canada and other countries have very similar laws. This is ridiculous, there's no bad political link to do here. It should be removed.207.253.108.195 (talk) 02:50, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WASP

I removed the cross-link to WASP, which is not an equivalent term. WASP stands for White Anglo-Saxon Protestant as a type, without a historical dimension -- an Englishman moving to North America would be classed as a WASP (or his children would). By contrast, 'pur laine' refers to White Gallic Catholics in their capacity of descendents from 17th/18th C French settlers in New France -- a Frenchman moving to Quebec would not be 'pur laine'. Jackmitchell 14:28, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not so sure about this. My understanding is that "WASP" sometimes refers specifically to those Americans who were descended from the Mayflower pilgrims. I have never heard the use of the term "WASP" (the American usage) in connection with more recent British immigrants, for example. Laval 19:55, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] deprecation

The expression is not deprecated in French, except when it is used to exclude non-French Canadians. A person who was born and had lived his entire life in Montreal might well be referred to as un Montréalais pure laine. A person can be "un Japonais pure laine" or "un Toulousain pure laine" (although the speaker is likely to be Canadian, because this expression is not used in France). Similarly, it is, I believe, perfectly acceptable to say that an immigrant who came from Pakistan as an adult is not a "Québécois pure laine", without that being offensive. What would be viewed as unacceptable would be to refer to his or her children, born and raised in Quebec, as not being "des Québécois pure laine". Of course, the uncontroversial use of pure laine hasn't seeped into English because it is uninteresting (and we've already got words like dyed-in-the-wool), so pure laine has ended up implying French Canadian in English. I think this should be reflected in the article. Joeldl 10:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name of article

It seems to me that leaving out the e is a mistake. Laine is feminine, so pure takes an e. You would never see it without the e in French, and I don't know if the use of it without an e in English is an established practice rather than just a mistake people make when they don't know French well enough. I would favour moving it to Pure laine. Joeldl 10:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

While I'm not sure that "pur laine" is outright wrong (rules of grammar are always much more complicated than they appear), "pure laine" is vastly more common, including in the specific context of Québec / Canada. This article has been renamed from pur laine to pure laine as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis

Whatever uncertainty there is in English, there is none at all in French. I was presenting the grammatical argument as an explanation for the fact that only pure laine exists in French. The fact that there is such an explanation also increases the likelihood that people will perceive pur laine to be a mistake, as opposed to cases where variant forms exist without a clear rationale for one or the other. Joeldl 10:09, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prime Minister?

The article currently refers to Bernard Landry as the former "Prime Minister of Quebec." While in french, the title of the office is "premiere ministre," the official english designation is "Premier." Shouldn't this be changed? 75.15.13.128 (talk) 03:35, 10 December 2007 (UTC) You are wrong. "Premier Ministre" is the right way to write it in French. Première ministre is a feminine form.