Talk:Punisher
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[edit] MAX IS NOT 616
So it seems the majority of people and evidences are with it not being 616, time for someone more litereate then me to edit the article.
As a side note its worth stating that firebase valley massacre was not stated to NOT have happened in some capacity in 616 meaning its mention in civil war files does not pull max into 616 it could be referring to the 616 version of this event or a similar one or was more likely and error either way it seems a consensus has been reached.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.141.146.32 (talk) 17:48, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
MAX is not In continuity it should be in the other versions section but some tosser changed it back despite the correction —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.132.179.156 (talk) 16:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm not totally sure about this, but in the Marvel Knights series, which happens in 616, there is a character named Jen Cooke, a social worker. She appears in the "Hidden" arc, in vol. 4 of the trade paper back. She then appears in the "Slavers" arc of the Max series. I would say this pulls the Max series into the 616 universe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.199.88.137 (talk) 03:24, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
The current Punisher: War Journal title is in continuity. Punisher: War Journal and Max have no relationship to, or bearing on each other. For example in Punisher Max, Frank Castle has a daughter; in War Journal he doesn't. This suggests Max is not continuity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.69.142 (talk) 22:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Does the Knights series take place in 616? The Knights series and the Max series happen in the same continuity, because of the Jen Cooke character. In the "Slavers" arc she mentions the events in the "Hidden" arc, so that's undisputable. Both the Knights series and the Max series are written by Ennis, also keep in mind. If they are occuring in their own continuity, (Ennis' universe) than that should be made clear: Knights and Max in one universe, with War Journal in the standard 616 universe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.199.88.137 (talk) 02:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I would argue that the total lack of any other common elements seperates Max from Knights. Are there any other references to the Knights run in the other (so far) 53 issues of Max? I suggest that Ennis just used Jen Cooke for quick access to the character type, without having to waste space developing another character. The reference to the "Hidden" arc is just a nod to the audience. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.112.86.149 (talk) 12:31, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
After going through the 9 MAX arcs, there are no references to the Knights run save Jen Cooke. I would say Ennis' has his own continuity: Born, Tyger, The Cell, the Knights run, the Max series, and The End. Max is a continuation of Ennis' Knights writting, but doesn't take place in the 616 universe, despite Knights taking place in 616. So that would be two continuities: 616 which is Knights then War Journal, and Ennis' writtings. I would agree, MAX is not 616. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.199.88.137 (talk) 02:18, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
In the “Civil War Files” (Takes place before Punisher: WJ) Iron Man talked about The Punisher’s past. “Captain Frank Castle, sole survivor of the Firebase Valley massacre” (A MAX line story from the events in Born, Frank’s time in Vietnam)
“Although recently Castle has escalated his “war” on crime even further, with record-breaking body counts, he is paradoxically now rarely encountered in the field by any super hero save Daredevil” (record-breaking body counts would be from both the Marvel Knights and the MAX line, rarely encountered in the field by any super hero save Daredevil would be from the Marvel Knights).
“It’s almost like he inhabits two worlds, one where heroes can capture him and one where they can’t, and he can slip from one to the other with ease.”.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.228.188 (talk) 22:50, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
This is my first talk thing, so I'm sorry if I do it wrong. MAX is not 616, it uses it's own origin story with the Drago mob family (seen in The Cell one shot), 616 still uses the Costa family origin (it was shown in last months issue of War Journal). In the 616 universe Frank, his wife, son and daughter stumble upon a mob execution being carried out by Bruno Costa and a couple of his goons, Bruno orders his men to kill Frank and his family. In the MAX "universe" Frank, his wife, his son and daughter just happen to be caught in the middle of a shootout between the Drago family and a rival mob family. Another difference that makes it obvious they're different canons is the fact that Micro was killed by almost being incinerated by a rocket in one of the final issues of the 90's Punisher series. MAX is set in the same "universe" as Ennis' MAX Fury miniseries, a real world continuity away from superheroes and such. The fact that one family is responsible in 616 for his family's murder and an entirely different family in responsible in MAX is all you really need to realize they're different canons. Certain characters from 616 may exist in the MAX comics, but 616 characters also exist in the Ultimate comics. FearEmbodied (talk) 02:01, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
- We must also remember that the Punisher’s past (or any character) isn’t always going to be written a 100% correctly every single time from every single writer. Back in the 1980's and 1990's the way the Punisher's family was killed was written differently many times by different writers. The Punisher says himself that he was shocked to see that Micro was alive. And that's nothing new; characters have been brought back to life many times in comic books.
There might have been minor differences between the writers, but it was still the Costa family every time. Also, Frank said he was shocked to see Micro, not to see him alive. It's said in the book the Micro quit, not died like he did in 616. FearEmbodied (talk) 05:47, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
- And yet some of the events in the MAX line have been talked about in Civil War. The MAX line is an imprint for adult reading and that’s all it is. There was nothing that was said that the Punisher would be in another world when he was move to the MAX line and nothing has been said. When it came to how the Punisher’s family was killed… first it was told that they were killed before they had a picnic and saw a mod hit, or they were killed when they were flying a kite and stumbled onto the mob hit, or they were killed by two Miafa groups and were killed in a crossfire, another has it that Frank wandering onto the scene after hearing gunfire to see mobsters standing over his dead wife and kids or Frank was behind a tree and heard the gun shots of his family being killed. Like I said not every writer is going to get it right and there will always be continuity issues.
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- I am confused. I'm all for Punisher stories set in alternate continuties. But if it is meant to be in Earth 616, then there is no reason to get it wrong. As I understand it, 616 was the Castle family stumbling upon a mob execution and all were shot by the soldiers there. Lots42 (talk) 17:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Some still aren't getting that in 616 the Costa origin is still used. In the last issue of War Journal Jigsaw talks about the whole thing, he mentions the Costa family targeting and killing the Castles because of what they witnessed. In the MAX universe it's an entirely different family and they weren't targeted they were simply caught in crossfire of bullets being shot by the Drago family. If they were both part of the same continuity then why would they switch back and forth between two different and very distinct origins? If MAX is 616 canon they why does it use Ennis' non-canon Nick Fury? MAX Punisher and MAX Fury are in their own separate canon, call it something like "Ennis-verse" if you want but it's quite clear that they're not the same. Also, someone mentioned that in Civil War they mention MAX arcs, could you give references? FearEmbodied (talk) 21:04, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
And let's not forget that the MAX Punisher is much older than his 616 counterpart. darknus823 19:28, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
When it comes to the many Marvel and DC comic book writers there are not always on the same page when it comes to a character's backround. In an interview with the new writer that will be taking over after Ennis leaves says that he sees the MAX line Punisher as being in the 616 world.
In the “Civil War Files” (Takes place before Punisher: WJ) Iron Man talked about The Punisher’s past. “Captain Frank Castle, sole survivor of the Firebase Valley massacre” (A MAX line story from the events in Born, Frank’s time in Vietnam)
“Although recently Castle has escalated his “war” on crime even further, with record-breaking body counts, he is paradoxically now rarely encountered in the field by any super hero save Daredevil” (record-breaking body counts would be from both the Marvel Knights and the MAX line, rarely encountered in the field by any super hero save Daredevil would be from the Marvel Knights).
“It’s almost like he inhabits two worlds, one where heroes can capture him and one where they can’t, and he can slip from one to the other with ease.”
This is word for word from the Civil War Files issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.105.143 (talk) 07:48, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
"When it comes to the many Marvel and DC comic book writers there are not always on the same page when it comes to a character's backround. In an interview with the new writer that will be taking over after Ennis leaves says that he sees the MAX line Punisher as being in the 616 world."
I would really love to see the interview you're talking about. There are three new writers, which one supposedly said that? Also, I'd say the MAX origin and the 616 origins have too many essential differences to simply say the writers aren't "on the same page". As I said before, some of you don't seem to get that the Costa origin is still used in 616, if the Drago origin showed in "The Cell" was a retcon don't you think that the 616 books would use that origin? It makes no sense to switch back and forth. You can chop up the "Civil War Files" mess to the writer not knowing what the hell he was doing. FearEmbodied (talk) 13:53, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
In my opinion MAX is not set in the 616 Marvel Universe. Everything is different, even Frank's vital statistics are different. In the 616 and Marvel Knights Universe he stands at 6ft. and weighs 200lbs. In the MAX universe he stands at 6'1" and weighs at 210lbs. In the MAX universe, Castle got his training from the Australian Special Air Service Regiment, while in 616 and Marvel Knights universe he was SOLELY USMC/Army/Navy.
Bits and pieces of the 616 Universe is still use in the MAX universe, such as Frank's rank in the USMC before he was exchange with the Australian SASR, plus Frank's real name - where he illegally changed it to enter Vietnam for the third time. Then after completing his Militray service, his family were murdered in a violent shoot-out.
Ultimately the MAX universe retells the Punisher's adventures in a more realsitic, more believable and mature way that entices us readers. It is in no way connected to the Mainstream Marvel Universe.
The Marvel Knights is set in the 616 that ultimately leads to the crappy Punisher: WJ book. I agree with FearEmbodied that the dumbass who wrote the "Civil War Files" does not know which continuity he needed to include. The Jen Cooke was just a character Ennis inserted to save him time writing the story arc. So let's not get too worked up about a character Ennis just recycled. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.46.141 (talk) 21:43, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the agreement. Characters from 616 may appear in the MAX books, sure, but they're MAX versions of the characters. Characters from 616 also appear in the Ultimate Universe, but they're obviously different.FearEmbodied (talk) 12:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
FearEmobodied, I'm the one who agreed to your statement earlier. I need to confirm because there is a confusion about Marvel Knights and MAX universe regarding Castle's military training. It says that in the 616 universe, he received his training solely from the US military. But in the MAX and Marvel Knights universe, he got his thing from the Australian SASR. That being said, Marvel Knights is set in the 616 universe right? So that means the statement on the skills and training part of Punisher's bio is wrong. It should be noted that in the MAX universe, Castle was with SASR. While in the 616 and Marvel Knights he was with the USMC/Navy/Army. I hope I'm right.
I can't remember reading anything official that says Frank was trained solely by the US military in 616, I think adding the Australian SASR part was just Ennis elaborating and fleshing out Frank's training.FearEmbodied (talk) 04:36, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Please read Punisher MAX Vol. 2: Kitchen Irish, there is this British SAS Trooper named Yorkie Mitchell who mentioned that he and Castle trained with the SASR during the war in Vietnam as part of the exchange program of the Australian military. While in 616, Frank received extensive military training from the four branches of the U.S. Armed Forces. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.110.141 (talk) 12:35, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Is the Punisher Sociopathic?
The Punisher character was inspired by Mack Bolan of Don Pendleton, and the Punisher character carried over the "metaphysics of violence" developed by Don Pendleton, an unconventional underlying philosophy of violent retribution against lawlessness in all forms. The Punisher opposes entrenched political corruption, police corruption, and official misconduct (the true hypocritical sociopaths, wolves in sheep's clothing), but never tries to harm the innocent average citizen or good-intentioned cops; the peaceful, crime-oppressed innocent civilian is, indeed, the very object of his retributory concern. If the Punisher was a sociopath, he would lack the moral sense to discriminate between legally untouchable career-criminals and unprosecutable gangsters and their victims, with whom he shares a special empathetic bond. On the contrary, in view of Jungian psychology, the Punisher is a re-manifestation in a democratic, materialist-positivistic age of the forgotten archetype of medieval knight-errantry, righting wrongs according to a higher code of justice. Indeed, according to Greg Garrett, author of Holy Superheroes: Faith and Spirituality in Comic Books (Navpress Publishing Group; April 2005), the more controversially punitive-minded comic book superheroes like the Punisher and Batman function as avatars of the Old Testament God of retributive justice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.130.179.108 (talk) 15:07, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- Official misconduct? The Punisher doesn't give a crap if you are sleeping around on your wife or embezzling. If you are embezzling from a homeless shelter, he might punch you to get you to stop. If your embezzling caused a death, well, THEN you are screwed. Lots42 (talk) 20:33, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
lex talion —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.10.129 (talk) 10:05, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
He tossed one guy out through a window for cheating on his wife... though he did offer him the chnace to run away first :D 68.59.135.136 (talk) 05:25, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Errors and such
Hi, random Castle fan here. I noticed an error (a couple months ago, and changed it today because it bugged the crap out of me) that claimed that the Punisher killed Stilt-man during the final battle, when he infact killed him a few issues before. I also added some details, but nothing too redundant or useless. I don't know how to cite or link anything since this is my first contribution to this site (which has saved my rear during many a school assignment), and I don't think that I will become a regular contributor, but feel free to fix it up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.179.166.65 (talk) 22:16, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi, same person. Couldn't help but notice that the edits were reverted back to the former. I guess I changed it without consulting the discussion board first, but I couldn't help but notice no explaination why, or the fact that the same blatant errors are still in there. Even if my additions were needlessly lengthy, the Punisher DID NOT kill Stiltman in the final battle between the heroes, especially since he wasn't even still on Captain America's side (being previously kicked off). Stiltman was killed in Issue #1, volume two of punisher war journal, BEFORE the Punisher was even involved in the politics of the war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.179.166.65 (talk) 03:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- Devil's Advocate: The Punisher has never let what 'side' he is on choose who he kills. Lots42 (talk) 20:31, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Punisher 2099
You guys are missing the Punisher 2099 One shot. Where the woman is the daughter of Frank Castle and Elektra. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.82.252.14 (talk) 02:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I will be happy to add it if you would like me too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Intelligent Moron (talk • contribs) 02:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Civil War
Can someone who read the issues work on the section called 'Civil War & World War Hulk events'? It's a morass of typos and god knows what else; I'd work on it but I have no clue of what really happened and when. Lots42 (talk) 06:55, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- I wish I could work on it, but I still haven't finished reading WWH. Im have read WWH #1-3 only †Bloodpack† 14:13, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I was quite tired when I made those edits (guy from errors and such post). I know that it is factually accurate now, though. I knew that it might need to be cleared up a little, but I am rather sick right now and would rather not strain the old brain too much.
And to Bloodpack: All you really need to read to understand where the punisher is involved in WWH is issue number 12 vol.2 of warjournal, and issue 108 of Incredible hulk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.179.247.200 (talk) 23:55, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Personality Updates
The personality section currently says all superheroes are illegal vigilantes, which for Marvel is attualy incorrect any ideas how we should rephrase it? Joeking16 (talk) 00:28, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
- And besides which, is there such a thing as legal vigilante? :-) --Tenebrae (talk) 01:00, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, the "registered" heroes per Civil War: Initiative, JK! =D Nice to see you Ten! I'm starting to get lazy editing this article. Nice of you to drop by =) †Bloodpack† 04:00, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Max
I thought Frank rescued Max the dog from a life on the streets; after Max's owner was killed in a robbery. Lots42 (talk) 16:21, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Don Pendleton inspiration
It is a common secret that Don Pendleton's Mack Bolan was the direct philosophical-artistic inspiration behind the Punisher character in spite of all 'official' consensus propaganda. Get real. Don Pendleton or at least Mack Bolan should be mentioned in the article as inspiration. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.10.2 (talk) 18:59, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think anyone will mind if you cite references and such to this. Lots42 (talk) 01:03, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedians are really far-out in their anal-rentative pendanticism and formalistic 'scholarliness'. Do we need a citation that our Sun is a star or that the sky appears blue or humans are mammals with intellectual souls, isn't it just self-evident?
So I guess the fact that the April 1975, Marvel Preview Death Sentence (#2) issue explaining the birth of the Punisher character has an interview with Don Pendleton (creator of Mack Bolan) possesses no evidentiary value and is sheer coincidence? There is no possible way to disentangle the Punisher character from the late Don Pendleton, who deserves a brighter fame for his personal creativity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.10.1 (talk) 12:46, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
- That sounds like a perfectly good citation to me. Why not go ahead and add it in? Lots42 (talk) 03:57, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I am new to the Internet and not a very good Wikipedia editor. Could someone put the Pendleton context info in the article for me? thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.10.2 (talk) 22:08, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Special Air Service Regiment
Good day!! I would like to know what issue in the MAX universe or the Marvel Knights universe showed he was exchanged with the Australian military?
I need to specify if it was in the MAX universe or Marvel Knights universe, so that we can separate the Castle's military training from the Mainstream Universe and from the Ennis' universe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.46.141 (talk) 21:53, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] "Murder"?
In the first section, there are some strong words describing the Punisher's actions and implied ethics: he employs "murder", etc. I wonder how accurate this really is. Murder refers to the taking of innocent life, as far as I know, not to the superfelons the Punisher takes on. The whole idea is to prevent the taking of innocent life. As to 'legality', are the covert American special forces groups that assassinate criminal druglords like Pablo Escobar and the gangs of modern terrorists a bunch of 'illegal murderers'?
--The prime element in determining the status of murder is the justice of the underlying cause for the act of destruction rather than the destruction itself. Is the Punisher motivated by private malice or avarice? Does he reinvest the captured spoils of his opponents in personal profiteering or sell his lethal skills to amoral mercenary employers? The just motive (targeting of career superfelons to preserve the common good) legitimates the act. John of Salisbury has some relevant words on Tyrannicide. If the Punisher confines himself strictly to targeting the felonious, the designation murderer is only expressive of a decadent bureaucratic legalism, which doesn't understand the complexity of higher ideals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.130.225.205 (talk) 16:41, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Crime is contextual. What is the difference between illegitimate robbery and legitimate confiscation? The act of seizure is common to both acts and would appear identical to an extraterrestrial observer, but confiscation is legitimate solely due to the fact that the seizor targets an individual deserving confiscation (i.e., white-slavers, drug-lords, etc). Is deception inherently evil? A deception-based police sting targeting felons is hardly immoral, and tyrannicidally "murdering" a corrupt, lawless figure like Hitler holding external-legal authority would be meritorious. The same act, death-infliction, is lawful or unlawful solely depending on whether the act is defensive or offensive, not whether it is procedurally or democratically ratified. Outward-bureaucratic authority cannot be the decisive criterion, as Genghis Khan's terrorism would then be "lawful" and Hitler's governmental court-approved atrocities perfectly fine. Claus von Stauffenberg possessed no "legal" authority to assassinate Hitler and is considered by many a traitor, but in a world of corruption, what matters is moral intention. The main criterion on whether violence is moral/lawful is whether it is offensive or defensive. The unprovoked initiators of violence and aggression can be dealt with according to their own level due to the fact that they commenced the process of warlike violence. Thus, war is morally neutral, and bloodshed falling on the initial aggressor is ethically normative. If the category of "initial aggressor" is too difficult to determine and each side is ill-motivated, civilized people have the right to Amishlike nonparticipation. On the other hand, certain "initial aggressors" are obvious to all sane, civilized, rational, moral people (i.e. "official" tyrants like Hitler and Stalin, child-pornographers, drug-lords, Charles Manson, etc.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.10.2 (talk) 19:02, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Copyright Violation
All right, who copied the Marvel Handbook into the Abillities section. IT'S NOT ALLOWED! COME ON! You're gonna get us all in deep crap. Lots42 (talk) 05:33, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
